Stay NA or go to the Dark Side?

theDreamer

Nothing major because no one (individual) wants to up front the R&D money to do some new parts for the car and hope they show gains for a NA v6. For a company/team they are limited in racing leagues on mods many times so they focus on other upgrades they can do (suspension/aero/cooling/etc).

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edub370

Well that sucks. we may be sitting on an NA gold mine and never kno it...

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SS_Firehawk

It's going to cost a Gold mine to do it as well, and therein lies the problem. To push 400whp, your going to spend twice as much than running a supercharger, to push 500whp, closer to 2.5x the cost of a TT. The only people who will be paying for that are teams that have rules to play by. Starting price for a wetsump 500hp motor was almost 25k... not including install. A dry sump 400hp na motor was 35k. That sir is the price of a used 370 and a new 370 respectively. t makes no sense to do unless costs are no concern and that person most likely makes enough money to buy something better than a 370Z.

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SS_Firehawk

So I got my quote back from Mike@GTM and they will be running a promotion on the new twincharger system. There were a few recommendations that he added to the quote which I had an eye on already. All of which were massive cooling upgrades to keep the Z running cool during hot laps in this SW heat. He also stated that this will work with my existing oil cooler which is reassuring as I paid a small fortune for it.

I'll let GTM make their pricing announcements,but he recommended, radiator, shroud, and SPAL fans. He also recommended running their external water/oil cooler in series with my oil cooler. This is primarily due to the extreme climate here, so I don't see everyone needing such heavy duty cooling with their vehicles unless they are running them hard for an extended period of time. The only thing not included on the quote that I think I'll be picking up is their traction control system. It's a good safety feature as opposed to either the crappy OEM TCS or off and having that much power. Total price I'm looking at so far is just over $11k for the parts alone. Add another $1200 for the traction control module and $1500 for install and any additional tuning, I think $15k is a good estimate. I would anticipate a turbo setup to cost more with the same cooling options.

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Kingbaby

I personally say save that 15k even though you got it like that! Congrats on the contracting job and stay safe man!

Stay NA...

I would look into other supporting mods! Gears/clutch/flywheel/tires/aero...then driver mod! If you need to line up on the street...NOS...folks over look it but it comes on faster and is a huge jump in power without the heat factor of other FI systems. Plus you won't have I baby the car around all he time like a regular FI car!

I plan to stay NA yet want the same things you looking for. Especially with UpRev I can have my maps for ever occasion...

/bench modding

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SS_Firehawk

Thanks for the input. I'm surprised by the number of people hat chimed in to push the NA route. The polls have NA just behind the GTM TT. It would definitely be easier for me to pick up the other mods I was looking into if I didn't go FI. I can get a new clutch, flywheel, rear diff, the cams, buy back the motordyne manifold, new spark plugs, injectors, fuel pump (e85),new seats, harness, 2nd set of rims/tires, and necessary brake upgrades. I would still be way under in terms of price.

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theDreamer

With NA, you can still purchase a lot of items which will improve your car a lot, clutch/flywheel, brakes, cams, intake, etc. You will hit a point where you need to pick a direction and just go down the rabbits hole and do not turn back. Both routes will be expensive.

I would vote for NA also, even though I have SC, because I really want to see a great NA build for the 370z. You look like you have the time, patience AND money to do it properly and enjoy the results.

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SS_Firehawk

I wish VVEL was something we could tune already. I really think it has great potential to change the game on every front. FI really needs it to tune overlap at higher boost pressures. NA can really use it to open a new can of worms. I think it has the possibilities of allowing some crazy exhaust cam profiles to run with it. I think the combination of VVEL tuning and a custom ground set of some aggressive exhaust cams can push this engine to the next level. If I knew when that day would come, I would be on that faster than Sir Mix A Lot on Nikki Minaj. I do have a year of waiting regardless of how bad I want to do anything.

Before I do anything to it to it, I will be replacing the spark plugs as I think they have been affected by a few thousand miles of being untuned and running pig rich. I think While I'm home on vacation, I'll get them replaced, the Motordyne manifold thrown back on, and retuned with temps that aren't in the 100's to see where I stand. I'm planning on a small trip to Cali as well while I'm home, I'll run on a dynojet while I'm there as well so I an see the elevation difference and if my shop back home has a stingy dyno.

I put down 270whp DIN bone stock on that dyno (avg was 266whp), and at it's highest 316whp DIN. He give me everything in DIN because it reads higher and I convert it. My friends bone stock 2012 M3 put down 332whp DIN on that dyno and that's rated at 414hp. Doing the math tells me that drivetrain loss is at about 20% when measured on this dyno.

Reversing the formula put my car at around 395 hp at the crank when I made the most hp. With it sitting at a tuned 306whp DIN right now, it's right around 381hp. If I can find that lost hp, I won't be as frustrated as I am now. Adding exhaust cams may just be all I need at that point. I'll be running M3 levels of engine performance in a car that weighs 400lbs less. I won't be chasing LS3 C6 vettes any time soon, but I'm also not 50+ or b!tching about my sh!tty seats and as$tastic interior either.

Am I making sense here? I want to be sure I'm not extrapolating out of the realm of what's considered common or realistic with the 370Z. I want to be realistic. If I can put down over 330whp on that same exact with those cams, I'll be happy with it's NA performance. 25whp from where I sit now is in my opinion, absolutely achievable with those cams.

EDIT: For clarification, I started my calculations with known hp at the crank. Example 1: 332 x .20= 66.4 (265.6whp) Example 2: 414 x .20= 82.8 (331.2whp)
I took factory crank hp and determined the difference between it and the dyno results to be 20% which is shown above. I then extrapolated the known crank hp and compared it to my dyno results at 316 and 306 respectively using 20% as my drivetrain loss to determine the new crank hp results. (I'm no mathematician, but this is the best way I could explain)

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edub370

na can be badass on these vq's. idk if anyone caught this months modified (or superstreet. cant remember) but it had an article on an 04ish 350z that was a built NA car and it was making 377whp. thats with the old single mani configuration too. 400whp na is not unattainable for our cars

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Megan370z

you will not see anyone getting 400whp N/A with the VVEL !!
hell even with those custom parts that I made which I spend hours for the research on how and what to do, Im still quite far from the 400 mark !!
but lastly on that dyno I had a good 15whp edge over other peoples who where also fully bolt-on.

that vq35 which did 377whp was probably a quite expensive NA built with some big cams and lighter rotary parts (fywheel/clucth/pulley) and other parts.

just an exemple from a guy I know

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Red__Zed

you won't even come close to 400whp with anything streetable.


surely you are joking.


I am continually stunned every time I look at this thread, and people are pushing the "NA=reliable" claim. In reality, at power level that are even REMOTELY comparable, you are going to see better reliability with boost every time.


You can get to 400ish whp no problem with mild boost and a conservative tune, and probably run the car for 100k+. Trying to get to even 360whp NA is going to mean cracking the engine open, and running a significantly more aggressive tune...not to mention probably cutting down on the air intake filtration. Look at the 350 Megan370z posted... it is running ITBs, and a hella aggressive tune, not to mention all the other crap. Trying to wrench power out of an NA build means a whole lot more risk to the engine, all with a much lower reward.

If SS wants to do it because he can afford it, I'll be one of the first people to subscribe to the build thread, but if he does it, it should be with eyes wide open to the risks.

Kingbaby

It's because we are currently NA in stock form...VQHR guy here and NA guys are already into 100k club, and they are not pussy footing around in it either! I have 39k of hard street driving....if I'd had done the same on a boosted application, I doubt it would've made it to 39k.

On the other note....GTM kits installed correctly with reasonable boost are also lasting the test of time also....


So it goes both ways!


NA has a little more pride it in...



OP don't forget gears/TUNE/100shot

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Red__Zed

Built NA != stock NA

Kingbaby

For the average Z owner yes! All bolt-ons/a tune/supporting mods is what I'm talking about I rarely see folks dive into a small engine build due to the minimal gains seen from cams or anything else.

Haven't seen/followed your build...do you still drive with the same confidence?

I'm not trying take anything away from boost, it's just the way a boosted Z car is driven 9 out of 10 times is sadden that's all.

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07 Silver Alloy Nissan 350Z Nismo #0191 "Lin'da"
2amR--------------------> VQ I.N.C. - Like us!

ZKraken22

So adding FI to a NA car is more reliable? So im seeing more guys with z's and G's adding Strokers along with a FI kit. Why are they doing that? to make the car more reliable! buddies na mustang with 135K... Cam, heads you name it and the car still runs. He is still in college he has needed a tune and new spark plugs a year ago and the car is still running. Let me see a boosted car last a year needing a re tune. The car that Megan370z posted im not telling OP to run anything like that. more like gabe3d over at (my350z) with the Stroker, cam G35 who has 100 miles on the engine. NA is reliable.

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