Stiff Front Sway Bar Thoughts

ChopsZ · 06-30-2017, 02:13 PM

So, going with either the Hotchkis or Eibach front bar, what's the pros and cons of each for daily use which may see a track once or twice a year?

Why would I pick one over the other? Price is not a factor.

Rusty · 06-30-2017, 04:04 PM

Depends on how hard you push it on the street.

Hotrodz · 06-30-2017, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopsZ

So, going with either the Hotchkis or Eibach front bar, what's the pros and cons of each for daily use which may see a track once or twice a year?

Why would I pick one over the other? Price is not a factor.

What Rusty said! I ran Eibach on the street and it was a great improvement over my Nismo bar. It was fine for most everything but I did experience with under steer on the Dragon at speed. I switch to a Hotchkis bar because of that experience and because I was going to track the car. It was another step forward. The only understeer I got on the dragon was because I took the corner with too much speed. I don't really see much difference for most driving on the street for the most part. Oh you need to keep the Hotchkis bar greased up...it creaks a lot more than the Eibach if you don't. I love it matched with a square setup at the track...very predictable and little understeer and the right amount of understeer for my driving style.

Driving style should be a consideration as some people like some understeer...I'm not one of them it scares the crap out of me. I rather have my arse hagging out!

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

ChopsZ · 06-30-2017, 08:28 PM

Well I'm probably more conservative than some on here, even though I do push the car from time to time. And honestly, I'd rather have no under or over steer.

Hotrodz · 06-30-2017, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopsZ

Well I'm probably more conservative than some on here, even though I do push the car from time to time. And honestly, I'd rather have no under or over steer.

A staggered setup is going to promote understeer. The Hotchkis sway bar will help a lot with that and squaring up will get you where you want to be on the street even with a Eibach front bar.

ChopsZ · 06-30-2017, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrodz

A staggered setup is going to promote understeer. The Hotchkis sway bar will help a lot with that and squaring up will get you where you want to be on the street even with a Eibach front bar.

So short of going with a square setup, going with the Hotchkis is probably the best bet?

Hotrodz · 06-30-2017, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopsZ

So short of going with a square setup, going with the Hotchkis is probably the best bet?

I think you could get pretty close with the Eibach bar too if you run a tire like ps4s or re-11. The deal is your back tires can and will over power your front tires so running a good wide tire up front will help a lot! The other thing is learning how to brake properly so you aren't over driving the car!

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

Rusty · 06-30-2017, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopsZ

So short of going with a square setup, going with the Hotchkis is probably the best bet?

Go with both Hotchkis bars. Set the rear on soft and see how you like it. Then set it on hard and try again. With my some what over square set-up. I run the rear bar on soft.

ChopsZ · 06-30-2017, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrodz

I think you could get pretty close with the Eibach bar too if you run a tire like ps4s or re-11. The deal is your back tires can and will over power your front tires so running a good wide tire up front will help a lot! The other thing is learning how to brake properly so you aren't over driving the car!

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

Go with both Hotchkis bars. Set the rear on soft and see how you like it. Then set it on hard and try again. With my some what over square set-up. I run the rear bar on soft.

Again, this is pretty much street only, and even though I push the car from time to time, I don't push it to the point of the tires losing grip.

This is all just for some spirited driving, and the fact that I'm headed to the "Dragon" in September and didn't want to go there completely stock, hence the recent suspension upgrades out of the clear blue all of a sudden.

The tires are all brand new with only a 3k miles on them, if that, so those aren't getting swapped out anytime soon. And remember, I live in Florida, so 99.9% of the time, the car isn't seeing any kind of wild curves at all, just the occasional on and off ramp. LOL

Hotrodz · 06-30-2017, 09:19 PM

I been waiting for to jump in!

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

Rusty · 06-30-2017, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrodz

I been waiting for to jump in!

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

Just got back from having dinner with my daughter.

Catching up on the new posts.

cloudofevil · 07-01-2017, 03:54 PM

I feel like the Eibach bar is enough for the street. My next upgrade will probably be dampers instead of a stiffer bar. Then again I've never ran the Hotchkis.

littlejuanito · 08-24-2017, 12:47 PM

Seems that the general consensus on running a stiffer front bar is that it will induce understeer but, why is the 370z the exception and more bar is preferred?

Can someone explain that to me. thanks.

MaysEffect · 08-24-2017, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlejuanito

Seems that the general consensus on running a stiffer front bar is that it will induce understeer but, why is the 370z the exception and more bar is preferred?

Can someone explain that to me. thanks.

The Z is not the only exception. Almost every car with a greater front weight bias has a larger front bar. The wrong information has been spread over the past decade that the rear bar should be enlarged for a plethora of wrong reasons. In reality the only reason the bars should be increased is if you have a significant increase in torque or increase in weight and or spring rate.

Most cars understeer from either having too much weight on the nose, or not enough at speed, this is why a 50/50 weight balance is ideal or slightly rearward (48f/52r). Under braking and lateral forces, weight shifts forward and outward increasing load on the front tires. Too much load and you overload the tires and lose traction, too little and the tires won't grip. This balancing act is the most critical aspect of design.

The Z has more weight on the front axle, no where near the levels of a Subaru or VW. But combined with smaller tires, you get a loss of traction from tire overload. There isn't anything funky about the suspension design or alignment that would cause additional understeer.

Increasing sway bar size is rather compromising unless you're increasing the spring rate or the amount of lateral load (increased g forces from bigger, stickier tires). Adding a larger bar with the same factory tires will just increase the load on the outter tire and reduce the contact patch on the inner tire. This is no bueno, thus the plethora of complaints of understeer.

Adding a larger front bar will reduce roll as intended with increased lateral load or additional weight (downforce). Increasing the rear bar causes a cross weighting effect that will transfer additional load to the inner front wheel, sharpening steering response and tire grip. The downside being increased instability and increased load on the outter rear tire. The trade offs are vast if you aren't actually increasing tire grip and load capacity.

filip00 · 08-26-2022, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaysEffect

The Z is not the only exception. Almost every car with a greater front weight bias has a larger front bar. The wrong information has been spread over the past decade that the rear bar should be enlarged for a plethora of wrong reasons. In reality the only reason the bars should be increased is if you have a significant increase in torque or increase in weight and or spring rate.

Most cars understeer from either having too much weight on the nose, or not enough at speed, this is why a 50/50 weight balance is ideal or slightly rearward (48f/52r). Under braking and lateral forces, weight shifts forward and outward increasing load on the front tires. Too much load and you overload the tires and lose traction, too little and the tires won't grip. This balancing act is the most critical aspect of design.

The Z has more weight on the front axle, no where near the levels of a Subaru or VW. But combined with smaller tires, you get a loss of traction from tire overload. There isn't anything funky about the suspension design or alignment that would cause additional understeer.

Increasing sway bar size is rather compromising unless you're increasing the spring rate or the amount of lateral load (increased g forces from bigger, stickier tires). Adding a larger bar with the same factory tires will just increase the load on the outter tire and reduce the contact patch on the inner tire. This is no bueno, thus the plethora of complaints of understeer.

Adding a larger front bar will reduce roll as intended with increased lateral load or additional weight (downforce). Increasing the rear bar causes a cross weighting effect that will transfer additional load to the inner front wheel, sharpening steering response and tire grip. The downside being increased instability and increased load on the outter rear tire. The trade offs are vast if you aren't actually increasing tire grip and load capacity.

This, I think is the crucial thing to consider when upgrading sway bars. If you have a Z with a staggered setup, everything stock, car will be prone to understeer, that's how it's setup. To reduce it, you could either go with a square setup which will definitely help with the understeer, or you could stiffen up the rear ARB, which will do just as you said - cross weighting effect, transferring the load from the read outer wheel to the inner front wheel, where all of a sudden, most of the understeer is just completely gone.

Also, driving a simulator nearly daily, I fiddled around with various setups and if there isn't any change to the spring rates and dampers, if you leave everything stock, and if the car is understeer prone, the easiest way to remedy it quickly is to stiffen the rear ARB.

06-30-2017, 02:13 PM	#1 (permalink)
ChopsZ Track Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Central Florida Age: 50 Posts: 965 Drives: 2016 370Z GM 6MT Rep Power: 2302	So, going with either the Hotchkis or Eibach front bar, what's the pros and cons of each for daily use which may see a track once or twice a year? Why would I pick one over the other? Price is not a factor. __________________ She's For Sale! PERFORMANCE: Aero Workz \| Akebono \| BC Racing \| EcuTek \| HKS \| MaxBore \| Motordyne \| Nismo \| RJM \| SPL \| StopTech \| Z1 AUDIO: Arc Audio \| Bazooka \| Helix \| Pioneer \| Stereo Integrity

06-30-2017, 04:04 PM	#2 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 69 Posts: 35,514 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684439	Depends on how hard you push it on the street. nasm likes this. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

06-30-2017, 08:28 PM	#4 (permalink)
ChopsZ Track Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Central Florida Age: 50 Posts: 965 Drives: 2016 370Z GM 6MT Rep Power: 2302	Well I'm probably more conservative than some on here, even though I do push the car from time to time. And honestly, I'd rather have no under or over steer. __________________ She's For Sale! PERFORMANCE: Aero Workz \| Akebono \| BC Racing \| EcuTek \| HKS \| MaxBore \| Motordyne \| Nismo \| RJM \| SPL \| StopTech \| Z1 AUDIO: Arc Audio \| Bazooka \| Helix \| Pioneer \| Stereo Integrity

06-30-2017, 09:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
Hotrodz A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: NW, AZ Posts: 9,330 Drives: 10 Nissan 370z Nismo Rep Power: 2684385	I been waiting for to jump in! Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk Rusty likes this. __________________ *Fast Intentions TT Installed and Tuned by Seb at SpecialtyZ 610whp 560tq:\|Fast Intentions 3" TT-TDX*\|SpecialtyZ/Fast Intentions 72 Row Oil Cooler\|SZ 6 Puck Clutch & Flywheel\|3GsCustoms\|Z1\|Wavetrac\|Hotchkis\|Whiteline \|Blitz\|Fortune Auto 500\|Fujimura\|SPL\|H&R\|TK\|TWM\|RPM Rollbar\|Sparco\|Next Level Performance\|TrackSpec\|AeroFlow Dynamics\|Pioneer\|

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
[WTB] Adjustable front sway bar and SPL Front Sway Bar End Links	reeps	Parts for sale (Private Classifieds)	0	09-05-2014 01:50 PM
[WTB] FT: Whiteline front sway bar for Hotchkis sway trade	scruffydog	Parts for sale (Private Classifieds)	0	08-01-2014 11:22 AM
[WTB] WTB: Hotchkis front sway or Nismo rear sway	BuckeyeZ	Parts for sale (Private Classifieds)	10	04-28-2014 11:12 AM
New Front Lip Concept... Thoughts??	RedZed34	Exterior & Interior	7	12-27-2010 04:57 PM
GET STIFF: Hotchkis sway bar kits! Free shipping!	THMotorsports	THMotorsports	317	11-17-2010 10:11 AM

07-01-2017, 03:54 PM	#12 (permalink)
cloudofevil Base Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: TN Posts: 32 Drives: 2015 370Z sport Rep Power: 9	I feel like the Eibach bar is enough for the street. My next upgrade will probably be dampers instead of a stiffer bar. Then again I've never ran the Hotchkis.

08-24-2017, 12:47 PM	#13 (permalink)
littlejuanito Track Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 812 Drives: 2014 Touring Sport Rep Power: 420	Seems that the general consensus on running a stiffer front bar is that it will induce understeer but, why is the 370z the exception and more bar is preferred? Can someone explain that to me. thanks.