Subaru powered Toyota FT-86 Concept

vo2max99

What are you basing "boring as heck on the street" on in regards to the BRZ / FR-S? I've yet to read one review (other than EVO for some odd reason/ they could only muster a 7.6 0-60 so who knows) that says the BRZ somehow needs more power to be fun on the street.

Serious sports car driver's will be on the fence? No, people who understand cars know that cars don't need all kinds of horse power to be a great driver's car.

The MX-5 consistently rates far above EVERY sports car in its segment (exception being EVO X in which case it's close) when it comes to handling and being a superior driver's car.

So seeing as the BRZ / FR-S are no slower than the MX-5 there's no reason to believe "serious sports car driver's" will or should be on the fence. More power, wider stickier tires would help it produce a quicker lab time but that's about it.

As is at its current power to ratio it should strike just about the right balance to be the most fun on the street. More power could be added and you could enjoy the sudden rush of acceleration for short 3-4 second burst at a time before losing your license and so on.

I've found that cars you can push closer to 99% more of the time is a lot more fun / rewarding vs. driving a car which is much faster for short burst. I prefer the actual experience over the bragging rights / #'s.

As far as Mazda convincing people well that use to be the case. Sell of the MX-5 Miata are way down from where they use to be because ppl have been brainwashed into "more in better".

It's the same reason for why Honda stopped production of the Honda S2000 and the same reason Subaru / Toyota unfortunately won't be making too many more cars like the BRZ / FR-S unless people are educated.

They'll just go back to producing high horse power cars vastly inferior to drive than cars like the Mazda MX-5 / Honda S2000, etc because folks keep crying for more horse power. So people who understand cars have to suffer from mass ignorance.

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vo2max99

Here's a good review:

U.S. Roads / Pro driver


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPoZ1...e_gdata_player


Okay so I just read that review from EVO.

1.) They tested an AUTO version against the others equipped with MANUALS.

2.) What they say about the car is completely contrary to what 99% have said about it. Majority says the BRZ is a phenomenal driver's car with adequate power. EVO basically says its a POS.

3.) No F'N way is the car nearly as terrible as they've made it out to be automatic transmission or not.

4.) They say there's no power below 5000 RPMS and you have to rev the **** out of it to move yet the vast majority say the BRZ has plenty of grunt from as low as ~ 2500rpm and DYNO confirms why as 90% torque available @2500RPM on up to 7000RPM.

4.) It sounds as if they were hired to diss the car not review it. The bottom line is that they're either: Way off the mark in their review. The automatic transmission makes the BRZ a turd. The BRZ they tested had issues. Otherwise it doesn't make sense because no way can so many credible automobile entities be so wrong. It's as if 99 say YES and EVO says NO. Something isn't adding up..


On another note I noticed the MX-5 they tested had just 158hp vs. 167hp (really 170 for 09's with a 7200rpm redline but not a big deal) for the U.S. model. I wonder why that is?

You wouldn't think 10hp would big a deal but according to EVO their MX-5 takes 7.5 seconds to hit 60mph vs. the 167hp U.S. MX-5's 6.3 0-60. That's over a full second for 10hp... It may have been 62mph making it roughly 7.3-7.4 seconds but that's still a full second back from the U.S. MX-5. But then again it may be their driving as they could only manage a 7.6 second 0-60 with the BRZ when it's posted 6.2 in the U.S.


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Shamu

EVO guys hired to diss a car? Lol! You clearly don't know those guys. Nope they just know cars well and Take time to really drive cars too. Lots of long term tests. Take cars to same circuit. They have track days on regular basis too. They are great at assessing cars strengths and weaknesses. They were spot on.

Have you seen Dynos? Yeah it make 125 ft lbs of torque and 75 HP at 3000 RPM hauling 3000 lbs of car and people. Sorry that's a fail in my book. No f'n way does this car have grunt with hefty near 3000 lb weight with customers seated in drivers seat. Vast majority of testers in US have based input based on track tests where they can easily grab power and focus on extracting power with redline shifts. That's not practical on the street. Yeah it's an underpowered But fun track car. However a 2700 lb car that will be closer to 3000 lbs with passengers will suffer with a sub 150 whp motor. It's physics. I don't even need to drive it to know its underpowered.

I can tell you my biggest complaint with 2800 lb 217 Hp Porsche Boxster was that it always needed to be down shifted if I was under 4000 rpm to grab acceptable power. Magazines all raved about Boxster too and it was and still is a great car but lack of power in early boxsters was real bummer. There is a reason why you can buy used 2.5 and 2.7 boxsters for under $10k. The Boxster S and Cayman S actually are fun to drive as they make enough power to exploit great chassis.

Subaru made excellent chassis for BRZ just as Porsche did for old boxsters. However just watch what happens to resale values of base BRZ if Subi introduces an STI version with forced induction. I suspect they won't do that soon as they know they would tank resale values and cars sold on leases would take higher depreciation hit. They likely will make slow incrental changes. Too bad really as the car has great potential.

I disagree with you. If BRZ had come in around say 2450 lbs with 2.0 it would have been tons of fun but when you put two people in the car your going to be over 3000 lbs. the power and torque to weight ratio is terrible. It's just too heavy for that small NA 2.0 motor.

Yes it's relatively fun car compared to a Civic or a Mazda 3. It's spicy sport looks will attract lots of women buyers too. It's practical too. But it misses mark as serious sports car in my book. Please buy one I'd lobe to hear what you think once you have one for a year or two. You seemed to convince yourself this car is awesome with no flaws. Suspect brz forums are going to be fixated on how to get more power and how to shed weight.

FYI in Europe mx5 comes with smaller 1.8 liter motor

Edit: heres an idea how about Subaru offering a Motorsports edition where they delete rear seats and maybe do a few more things to take weight off this porky 4 cylinder "sports car"

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Grant

Zaggeron

I look at this from a different perspective. I have my Z. It's not going anyway.

I have my daily driver Mazda 3, but the love is wearing off. The Z is a no-go as a daily driver -- for various reasons including gridlock every morning.

What cars are out there that will be fun as a DD, sporty, more or less cheap to run and maintain, and, oh ... by the way ... I'm sick of FWD and 4 doors.

My choices are basically the FRS, MX-5, or the BRZ. For my purposes, the BRZ looks like a solid deal -- better interior than the MX-5 and FRS. More practical than the MX-5 (plus I already have a convertible so a used s2000 is out as well). I looked at the BMW 1 series, but those are starting to get up there in price and the 128 doesn't have much better performance than the BRZ for about 8K more ...

Did I leave anything out? What other RWD coupes around 28K or under are there that get better mileage than an SUV (to rule out the RX-8 which I would pick up in a heartbeat if they got better gas mileage and their rear seals didn't blow in the Texas heat).

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2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport
2013 Subaru BRZ Limited

Lug

Mazdaspeed 3 is worth a look for a DD. I'm gonna peek in on a 2012 when the 2013's are anounced and see if I can pull one for around 22K.

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keep Chubbs in your pocket - Chubbs

Zaggeron

It's got two strikes on it (not counting the change in styling that happened in 2010 )

1. It's FWD
2. It has 4 doors

I'm specifically looking for a 2 door RWD coupe. Overall there ain't much choice under 30K

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2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport
2013 Subaru BRZ Limited

Lug

Got ya. I like the MS3 for a DD because it has 4 doors, can carry a bunch of shite with the back seats folded, and can be tricked out to outragous HP very cheaply ($1.5k upgrade can put you at about 350 FWH) after the warranty is done. If you get a 2009 or older, it's the ultimate sleeper too! A Mustang fits your bill better than anything else.

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keep Chubbs in your pocket - Chubbs

Zaggeron

Shhh. Don't tell that to the logical side of my brain. Actually, I did think of the V6 mustang, but they're a dime a dozen around here. More importantly, they are too big. I like the idea of a small car -- a very small car. I'd get a Kei car if they imported them into the US. I can almost forgive the FWD of the Cooper S, but I can't forgive the ungodly instrument cluster in the center of the dash -- ugh!

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2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport
2013 Subaru BRZ Limited

NeoSHNIK

I use my Z as a daily driver and I love it.

Zaggeron

Different strokes .... My 16 mile drive takes 40 minutes. I'm keeping the Z in any event. I just like having a daily driver too.

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2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport
2013 Subaru BRZ Limited

DJ-of-E

I've test driven the FR-S on an auto-X course before. It's a fun and peppy car, but my previous experiences with Boxer engine made me scared of riving over 7000RPM.

I have my Nissan 240sx and Nissan 370z. Engine-wise it feels like my stock 240sx quite a bit with a lot more power at the top end. Handling-wise, I would definitely want this chassis over Silvia S15 on the track. It has a lot of composure on the handling. It's a fun little car that I may consider purchasing, but since I already have a 240sx and money spent on mods on it, I most likely not.

However, this car isn't a bad purchase. If a person haven't bought a Mustang or 370z, I whole would suggest the FRS has a very good sporty option of a car to recommend. It's a great step-up from a daily driver and hopefully promote more car companies to build sportier looking and feeling cars.

As an overall package, I personally would not trade my Z for the FR-S (I did not sit on BRZ, so I cannot compare). Here are my pros and cons vs the 370z.

Pros:
-2 rear seats
-a lot of trunk space
-Actually very easy to drive quickly (Z is harder to drive, but can outgrip FR-S once you learn it).
-Not as corner carver as Miata, but friendly enough to let you power through a corner.
-Easier to see down the engine bay from the driver's windshield perspective
-Better engine sound to 7000RPM than the stock VQ.
-Cabin not as noisy as 370z.
-Feels a lot lighter, yet feels heavier (but planted) compared to my 240SX.

Cons:
-Lacking lacking in power if you're use to turbo or larger engine (both applies to me).
-IMHO, Z33 interior is better than this car's interior...and I do not like the Z33 interior.
-$30k OTD price this year (these cars are priced jacked like hell @ dealers last time I checked yesterday), expected to be around $28k OTD by the end of the year.

While it seems the pros outweight the cons, it's because I felt the FRS is a solid car overall and a lot of the benefits are just personal preferences and comfort rather than performance.

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DJ-of-E

Honestly, I've wait until maybe 2014 before jumping on the BRZ/FRS. For all we know , these car may have random crappy issues that needs to be addressed. Toyota usually is quicker on the change than Nissan IMO.

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Zaggeron

Good point, but, frankly, I like the idea of the car -- light, modestly powered, sporty RWD coupe.

I want to show my support for that kind of car. In order to do so I have to buy it. If everyone waited until everything got sorted out, nothing would get sorted out because they would simply discontinue the car.

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2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport
2013 Subaru BRZ Limited

vo2max99

So much misinformation I don't even know where to begin..

Let's start with the BRZ / FR-S

* It's curb weight is ~ 2750lbs NOT 3000lbs.

* It puts down 173WHP NOT under 150WHP

* 0-60 in 6.2 and 14.8 quarter is plenty quick enough for a car like the BRZ / FR-S. More power wouldn't do much for the fun factor just screw with the balance and limit engagement.

* EVO is basically the ONLY one's saying the BRZ is under powered. Considering they could only muster a 7.6 0-60 and tested the AUTO version may have something to do with it but not that much.

* I'll take the word over the vast majority over one set of reviews basically claiming the complete opposite. Their motives for basically saying the BRZ is a POS? Can't say for sure but no way in hell can so many be so wrong about the car.


For the lost one saying the Z is somehow vastly superior to cars like the MX-5 / BRZ:

The MX-5 is far FAR the superior driver's car. So if 99.9% of the reviews who've tested the BRZ / FR-S are correct the BRZ / FR-S will also blow the Z out of the water where it actually matters. Don't believe it? Wait until Car and Driver / Road & Track / Motor Trend, etc test them.

Not long ago Car and Driver tested / compared (best 40K and under) the Mustang GT, 370Z, MX-5, EVO X, GTI, Cooper JCW.

Results? The EVO X and MX-5 are in another league above the rest. Far better handling / driver's cars than the rest.

The 370Z finished behind the Mustang GT ahead of only the FWD GTI and Mini Cooper JCW barely.

They rated the 370Z the least fun to drive of all the cars. The EVO X and MX-5 finished WAY far ahead in the fun to drive category as well. The Z did post the 2nd quickest lab though! Not that really matters.

The #'a don't mean **** unless your racing your daily drivers for a living.

Again, considering 99.9% say the BRZ / FR-S is similar to the MX-5 it will in fact be far more fun / rewarding to drive than your precious Z.

I'm not here to stoke egos just stating reality. Sorry but your Z isn't all you think it is. If your happy with it that's great but don't fool yourself there are much better cars.

A car doesn't have to have all kinds of power to be a great driver's car when it has a well balanced chassis and accessible limits. Cars with really high limits need the extra power a hence can only really be exploited on a race track.

Again see Mazda MX-5 it's pure proof of this. The fact that it doesn't have a whole lot of power makes it fun as well as you can drive closer to 99% more of the time. Most cars today have far too much power and way higher limits than necessary for the street.

I don't have a problem acknowledging the weaknesses of the car I'm currently driving being an 08' MS3. I have no issue acknowledging that while it's the fastest Mazda currently offers it's by no means the best sports car Mazda offers.

The MX-5 is by far more fun / rewarding to drive and there's plenty of other cars that I have no problem admitting are much better than my MS3. Had I not been in a serious relationship at the time with a kid I would have gotten more of a pure sports car but the MS3 is still a decent car.

The novelty of going fast in a straight line runs off fast (I've driven plenty of 11-12 sec cars) There's so much more to a good sports car than how fast it goes.





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cossie1600

You need to layoff the kool-aid. For one, the RX-8 is a better comparison to the car than the MX-5. Any smallish cars are most likely going to be fun to drive regardless of what engine it has. It's the same reason why all the old Triumphs and MG were so popular even though they were piece of $hit.