Nismo or boss ?

Spikuh · 05-29-2013, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caustic

The problem I had is the consistent insistence that a live axle is just as good as an IRS to make a car perform well at a track. And then when that couldn't be argued, the insistence it doesn't matter. Of course it matters. That is why car manufactures spend time and money to develop these systems. That's why the cars in most track racing have it. But the live axle guys have dug their feet in because they can't deal with the fact that their cars are using inferior tech. The Mustang, one of the most recognizable marques around the world, has made forays into IRS (bad or otherwise) just for this very reason. And I'm the one that should let it go? Ford sure isn't, their next gen will offer IRS.

If you start putting other factors in there like good/bad setups, other applications, of course it muddies the whole argument, and avoids the original point.

The problem you are actually having is that you are talking about stuff no one even brought up in the manner you seem to think. Your first post into this discussion was:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caustic

The whole live axle vs IRS is a ridiculous debate. Billy Johnson is right from a technical standpoint. But he is also speaking from a professional standpoint, which most of are not.

The main difference between a live (stick, solid, or whatever you want to call it) vs IRS is grip and consistency. When a wheel connected to a live axle hits a bump, both wheels are affected in terrible ways. It completely throws off the handling to all but the best of drivers.

IRS is a benefit when a wheel hits a bump, the opposing wheel is still settled, the handling characteristics on the opposing wheel haven't changed. This creates consistency and predictability for handling in the majority of conditions.

The point being is that when you see Mustangs closing in on M3 lap times, everyone points it out as the Mustang being as fast and as good as the M3. But the reality is these those lap times are close because professional drivers have the ability to correct for the Mustangs weaknesses.

You put weekend warrior track day drivers in those two cars, the driver in the M3 will consistently outperform the Mustang driver by a large amount. The Mustang driver will have their hands full every time they clip an apex and roll over rumble strips.

Live axle technology is good for just one thing, price. If there were little difference between live and IRS, why does every high end race car have IRS?

Right from the start, you immediately bring it up as a debate....which no one did.

M4a, the person who brought up Billy Johnson, even said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Let's face it, the Mustang *shouldn't* be live axle. It should have ditched it a decade ago. But they didn't. And it didn't help that for the longest time they handled like crap, so everyone just assumed stick axles can't handle. By the time they actually put together a serious chassis and got the geometry right... that's a hard stigma to shake.

before you ever stepped into the conversation.

It is also crazy funny to me that you like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

A properly designed IRS is better than a properly designed solid axle. The Mustang still handles very well with a solid rear. Is it ideal? No. Will it be perfectly fine for the 99.9% of us who don't make our living behind the wheel. Of course. The solid rear isn't the reason I didn't buy a 5.0. It's the interior.

and yet, completely ignore:

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Let's face it, the Mustang *shouldn't* be live axle. It should have ditched it a decade ago. But they didn't. And it didn't help that for the longest time they handled like crap, so everyone just assumed stick axles can't handle. By the time they actually put together a serious chassis and got the geometry right... that's a hard stigma to shake.

because you want to argue against Billy Johnson.

Caustic · 05-29-2013, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spikuh

The problem you are actually having is that you are talking about stuff no one even brought up in the manner you seem to think. Your first post into this discussion was:

Right from the start, you immediately bring it up as a debate....which no one did.

M4a, the person who brought up Billy Johnson, even said:

before you ever stepped into the conversation.

It is also crazy funny to me that you like this:

and yet, completely ignore:

because you want to argue against Billy Johnson.

Maybe you are the one that is talking about stuff no one even brought up in the manner you seem to think. First off, I am not arguing against Billy in the slightest. Billy owns an NSX, is an active member of NSXPrime, and has contributed to our community immensely. He is a great source of information because he is so connected to the car community.

I was pointing out in the quote that m4a1mustang used from Billy about live axle, that Billy was speaking from a professional perspective. I went further to say that for the rest of us, a difference between the two systems (SRA, IRS) is consistency. A professional driver masks the weaknesses of the live axle, where people like us have to fight against it.

I'm sorry if you can't figure out what happened from there.

m4a1mustang · 05-29-2013, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caustic

Maybe you are the one that is talking about stuff no one even brought up in the manner you seem to think. First off, I am not arguing against Billy in the slightest. Billy owns an NSX, is an active member of NSXPrime, and has contributed to our community immensely. He is a great source of information because he is so connected to the car community.

I was pointing out in the quote that m4a1mustang used from Billy about live axle, that Billy was speaking from a professional perspective. I went further to say that for the rest of us, a difference between the two systems (SRA, IRS) is consistency. A professional driver masks the weaknesses of the live axle, where people like us have to fight against it.

I'm sorry if you can't figure out what happened from there.

I've never had to fight against a live axle. Not sure where you are getting that from.

StangerGT · 05-29-2013, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caustic

Maybe you are the one that is talking about stuff no one even brought up in the manner you seem to think. First off, I am not arguing against Billy in the slightest. Billy owns an NSX, is an active member of NSXPrime, and has contributed to our community immensely. He is a great source of information because he is so connected to the car community.

I was pointing out in the quote that m4a1mustang used from Billy about live axle, that Billy was speaking from a professional perspective. I went further to say that for the rest of us, a difference between the two systems (SRA, IRS) is consistency. A professional driver masks the weaknesses of the live axle, where people like us have to fight against it.
I'm sorry if you can't figure out what happened from there.

I dont have issues with mine...

I think you are drinking the cool-aid on the whole concept that a live axle being hard to pilot.

m4a1mustang · 05-29-2013, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StangerGT

I dont have issues with mine...

I think you are drinking the cool-aid on the whole concept that a live axle being hard to pilot.

It's quite easy. The only thing to be aware of is on panhard equipped live axles the rear end will move in a slight arc as the rear suspension compresses. This can potentially create the feeling of the rear end stepping out ever so slightly.

All you do in this situation is... nothing. Keep the throttle down and the wheel turned.

Caustic · 05-29-2013, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

I've never had to fight against a live axle. Not sure where you are getting that from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StangerGT

I dont have issues with mine...

I think you are drinking the cool-aid on the whole concept that a live axle being hard to pilot.

Perhaps "fight" was too strong a word, and it was referring to "fighting against it's weaknesses". Just because you don't feel you have "issues" doesn't mean that the setup isn't inherently working against stability and control.

m4a1mustang · 05-29-2013, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caustic

Perhaps "fight" was too strong a word. And just because you don't have "issues" doesn't mean that the setup isn't inherently working against stability and control.

This is starting to get ridiculous. By simply driving quickly one is inherently working against stability and control.

Stability and control is laying in a hammock at the beach drinking a beer.

Spikuh · 05-29-2013, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caustic

Maybe you are the one that is talking about stuff no one even brought up in the manner you seem to think. First off, I am not arguing against Billy in the slightest. Billy owns an NSX, is an active member of NSXPrime, and has contributed to our community immensely. He is a great source of information because he is so connected to the car community.

Cool story bro, thanks for the monologue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caustic

I was pointing out in the quote that m4a1mustang used from Billy about live axle, that Billy was speaking from a professional perspective. I went further to say that for the rest of us, a difference between the two systems (SRA, IRS) is consistency. A professional driver masks the weaknesses of the live axle, where people like us have to fight against it.

This is a correct statement to an extent and I do not disagree with you here, nor in your first post. Professional drivers can bring out the most of any vehicle because they have the skill level to do so.

But making blanket statements like IRS > SRA or:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caustic

Or just go for a car with with an IRS suspension which everyone in this thread has already admitted is the superior solution.

is categorically wrong no matter how you try massage the message. Don't believe me? Go back to picture story where I talked about a 20+ year old IRS design and both the IRS design of the 370z and the SRA design of the Boss 302. The IRS design of the 240sx is less capable than both the 370z and the Boss 302. Period. There is no disputing that. I even explicitly stated the point of the picture just because you can't leave stuff like that to chance and rogue interpretations.

Here is another example. Take the old Mustang IRS setup. It was bad. So they abandoned it and went back to the SRA setup. Lots of reasons for it being bad, but doesn't change the fact that it was bad. Does that make SRA > IRS? For that instance, on that car, on that chasis, considering the car as a whole...absolutely. Does that make SRA > IRS in general, as a blanket statement or rule? Nope. Just as Red mentioned:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

IRS is a superior framework that allows for superior designs...it doesn't guarantee them.

Notice the caveat. It is important.

If people want to make blanket statements about suspensions it should at least be:

IRS should be better than SRA assuming it was well developed. If people were making THAT point, then there is nothing left to say really.

But they aren't, which is the problem. And because they aren't, it is misinformation.

Caustic · 05-29-2013, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spikuh

Cool story bro, thanks for the monologue.

This is a correct statement to an extent and I do not disagree with you here, nor in your first post. Professional drivers can bring out the most of any vehicle because they have the skill level to do so.

But making blanket statements like IRS > SRA or:

is categorically wrong no matter how you try massage the message. Don't believe me? Go back to picture story where I talked about a 20+ year old IRS design and both the IRS design of the 370z and the SRA design of the Boss 302. The IRS design of the 240sx is less capable than both the 370z and the Boss 302. Period. There is no disputing that. I even explicitly stated the point of the picture just because you can't leave stuff like that to chance and rogue interpretations.

Here is another example. Take the old Mustang IRS setup. It was bad. So they abandoned it and went back to the SRA setup. Lots of reasons for it being bad, but doesn't change the fact that it was bad. Does that make SRA > IRS? For that instance, on that car, on that chasis, considering the car as a whole...absolutely. Does that make SRA > IRS in general, as a blanket statement or rule? Nope. Just as Red mentioned:

Notice the caveat. It is important.

If people want to make blanket statements about suspensions it should at least be:

IRS should be better than SRA assuming it was well developed. If people were making THAT point, then there is nothing left to say really.

But they aren't, which is the problem. And because they aren't, it is misinformation.

LOL, at your beginning sarcastic comment.

Saying IRS is better than live axle in a general track setting is not categorically wrong. Physics and engineering says it is better.

Saying a badly setup IRS vs a well setup live axle is whole different argument, and also a useless one.

Spikuh · 05-29-2013, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caustic

LOL, at your beginning sarcastic comment.

Saying IRS is better than live axle in a general track setting is not categorically wrong. Physics and engineering says it is better.

Saying a badly setup IRS vs a well setup live axle is whole different argument, and also a useless one.

Don't know if you are disagreeing with anything, so I am just assuming you are not.

Caustic · 05-29-2013, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spikuh

Don't know if you are disagreeing with anything, so I am just assuming you are not.

Haha.

Caustic · 05-29-2013, 01:49 PM

Sounds like naked group hug time.

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05-29-2013, 01:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
Caustic Base Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 243 Drives: '02 Acura NSX Rep Power: 14	Sounds like naked group hug time.