Burned up my brakes at the track, now what?

LuckyPierre · 07-04-2020, 08:59 PM

I recently bought a 2019 NISMO Z with 16kmiles. After changing the brake fluid to AP racing, I headed to my local race track for some NASA HPDE. The first session of the second track day, I was really laying down some fast laps after getting used to the car. I was at ten tenths right up until the front brakes gave out. I exited the track, got out and looked at the rotors - both front rotors were badly scored. I assumed that somehow I had worn the pads out. But, after removing one of the front wheels to inspect the pads, I could see that there was plenty of pad thickness left. After getting home, I pulled the pads and found them to also have grooves - I was expecting to find craters.
I'm looking for recommendations for pads and rotors for a car that is street driven but I also want to be able to hit the track hard. I'm an experienced (retired) road racer and NASA HPDE instructor capable of pushing my Z to its limits on the track.

OptionZero · 07-04-2020, 09:51 PM

Brake cooling is a known issue with our cars. I recommend spending time reading the track forum

For now, though, solutions to consider include

Pads: Carbotech is popular with an XP10 and XP8 combo front/back. A pricier solution is also the Endless MX72 which is reportedly very capable on the track while also being low dust and quiet

Rotors: two piece rotors for weight and cooling through vented/slotted design. Options from cheapest to priciest are Z1, dba, and racing brake. The DBA material has known incompatibility with endless pads

Fluid: endless rf 650 is the best and priciest. Others are motul rbf660 and castrol srf

Brake duct: a bit more work depending on your bumper but this should make a big diff. The only off the shelf option is stillen which includes tubing and the brake shield mount. The inlet duct is only available for the 09-13 stock or stillen bumpers. A few places make inlets for the 09-14 nismo. All other bumpers require custom fitting

Titanium brake shims have been used by a few folks to positive results but they arent cheap or easy to find in stock

cv129 · 07-05-2020, 01:32 AM

At your pace, you are gonna need more than just pads, rotors and fluids.

You’ll need cooling ducts.

bigaudiofanat · 07-07-2020, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cv129

At your pace, you are gonna need more than just pads, rotors and fluids.

You’ll need cooling ducts.

Yep

Tractionless · 07-07-2020, 05:04 PM

Wow is the Endless fluid that much better than Castrol SRF? I see it's roughly $30 less expensive as well!

OptionZero · 07-07-2020, 05:58 PM

No personal experience, just hearsay. Porsche forum track folks says the stuff is incredible

thekinn · 07-07-2020, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyPierre

I'm looking for recommendations for pads and rotors for a car that is street driven but I also want to be able to hit the track hard. I'm an experienced (retired) road racer and NASA HPDE instructor capable of pushing my Z to its limits on the track.

How much street driving? Someone with your experience knows there's going to be a trade off with one set of pads on a dual purpose car.. better track performance and faster wear, or better wear and something like your current result on track. I wouldn't expect any 'high performance street' pad to perform to my liking on a track.
..or lots of pad switching and cleaning of rotors between events..

But, as others have suggested, duct cooling could be the solution for you and allow for a more street-able pad to survive the track.. but i don't have experience with ducts.

2011 Nismo#91 · 07-08-2020, 06:36 AM

That's a wasted pad, so much material left.

That's 110% used up pad.

Anyway my personal opinion is as such.
The car has excellent brakes (sport) and needs little little more then good pads and fluid to make it exceptional. Expensive two piece rotors are will not provide any real benefit and will cause heat problems sooner then a simple one piece. Not to mention it will eat a hole in your wallet sooner.
What I use is simple blanks, I can throw 3-4 away for the cost of a single replacement for a two piece. I use "Frozen Rotors" blanks because I notices a large amount of surface crack on regular. It costs about 110 a rotor with the "fr2015" 15% discount code which is less then half the cheapest 2 piece rebuild, not including the initial investment. Two piece rotors do have their place, in a striped out race car gunning for a prize and sponsors. XP10/8 are great and I use rbf600 but there are many good fluids out there, test and change your fluid reguarly.

bigaudiofanat · 07-14-2020, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011 Nismo#91

That's a wasted pad, so much material left.

That's 110% used up pad.

Anyway my personal opinion is as such.
The car has excellent brakes (sport) and needs little little more then good pads and fluid to make it exceptional. Expensive two piece rotors are will not provide any real benefit and will cause heat problems sooner then a simple one piece. Not to mention it will eat a hole in your wallet sooner.
What I use is simple blanks, I can throw 3-4 away for the cost of a single replacement for a two piece. I use "Frozen Rotors" blanks because I notices a large amount of surface crack on regular. It costs about 110 a rotor with the "fr2015" 15% discount code which is less then half the cheapest 2 piece rebuild, not including the initial investment. Two piece rotors do have their place, in a striped out race car gunning for a prize and sponsors. XP10/8 are great and I use rbf600 but there are many good fluids out there, test and change your fluid reguarly.

THIS

OptionZero · 07-14-2020, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011 Nismo#91

That's a wasted pad, so much material left.

That's 110% used up pad.

Anyway my personal opinion is as such.
The car has excellent brakes (sport) and needs little little more then good pads and fluid to make it exceptional. Expensive two piece rotors are will not provide any real benefit and will cause heat problems sooner then a simple one piece. Not to mention it will eat a hole in your wallet sooner.
What I use is simple blanks, I can throw 3-4 away for the cost of a single replacement for a two piece. I use "Frozen Rotors" blanks because I notices a large amount of surface crack on regular. It costs about 110 a rotor with the "fr2015" 15% discount code which is less then half the cheapest 2 piece rebuild, not including the initial investment. Two piece rotors do have their place, in a striped out race car gunning for a prize and sponsors. XP10/8 are great and I use rbf600 but there are many good fluids out there, test and change your fluid reguarly.

I will defer to those with more track experience than I, and i see your point generally that a blank 1 pc has more mass and therefore more thermal capacity than a 2 pc . .

but don't all our current 2 pc options also have superior internal venting (for lack of a better term) to funnel air through the inside and therefore cool better on track?

is it your experience that the venting doesn't matter as much as just having more mass?

Rusty · 07-14-2020, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OptionZero

I will defer to those with more track experience than I, and i see your point generally that a blank 1 pc has more mass and therefore more thermal capacity than a 2 pc . .

but don't all our current 2 pc options also have superior internal venting (for lack of a better term) to funnel air through the inside and therefore cool better on track?

is it your experience that the venting doesn't matter as much as just having more mass?

There is a couple of things that go in a rotor. Internal cooling, what type of cast iron, how it's cast, hardness of the cast iron. Some rotors are a powder that is put into a mold and cooked until it's molten. Then left to cool.

cv129 · 07-14-2020, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OptionZero

I will defer to those with more track experience than I, and i see your point generally that a blank 1 pc has more mass and therefore more thermal capacity than a 2 pc . .

but don't all our current 2 pc options also have superior internal venting (for lack of a better term) to funnel air through the inside and therefore cool better on track?

is it your experience that the venting doesn't matter as much as just having more mass?

Some 1 pc also have similar designed directional internal vanes for drawing and dissipating air. Take DBA for example, both 5000 (2pc) and 4000 (1pc) series use the same “kangaroo paw” internal vanes.

I think for #91 specifically, he’s saying the marginal performance benefits don’t outweigh the cost saving from using cryo treated blanks. One can buy 1 pc with the internal vanes, then send to get cryo treated....or some sites actually sell cryo treated stoptechs.

2011 Nismo#91 · 07-15-2020, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OptionZero

I will defer to those with more track experience than I, and i see your point generally that a blank 1 pc has more mass and therefore more thermal capacity than a 2 pc . .

but don't all our current 2 pc options also have superior internal venting (for lack of a better term) to funnel air through the inside and therefore cool better on track?

is it your experience that the venting doesn't matter as much as just having more mass?

Venting is the same internally. Every mfg. has their own little version of better but as long as they have some form of curved internal venting you're good.

Less mass is great, but now now you need to add cooling, the faster heating and cooling stresses out more components, higher peak temps, and on top of that more money. If your racing then yeah none of that matters, for an extra .2 seconds or whatever, could mean a position. I'd see that money better spent on another track weekend (more seat time), 18" wheels (less weight, lower costs, more selection), aero, data analysis, etc. If replacements were more inline with 1 piece rotors I could see the benefit but, to me it's a money sink within a money sink.

SS_Firehawk · 07-08-2020, 10:28 AM

I didn't have issues with the OEM rotor. The pads on the other hand if they're OEM or Nismo pads, I'd definitely look for something better. Nissan changed the stock brake fluid on Nismo's back in 2013. I'm not sure if they did it across all Akebono equipped vehicles.
I've had good success running Winmax W5 pads. I replaced my front rotors with a DBA two piece set. I've gotten fast enough to run up to the limits of RBF600 using 2" ducts on a very hot day. Adjusting my braking helped keep me from hitting it again. I experienced this at Sebring where there are several heavy brake zones.

Rusty · 07-08-2020, 01:18 PM

Think everyone knows my set-up by now.

Pads - 10/8 combo.

Rotors - Racing Brake.

Fluid - Castrol.

Ti shims.

Brake cooling ducts. Started with the Stillen 2" kit. Then adopted that to a 3" hose.

07-04-2020, 09:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
OptionZero A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Sacramento Posts: 3,265 Drives: 15 370Z Nismo 6MT Rep Power: 214101	Brake cooling is a known issue with our cars. I recommend spending time reading the track forum For now, though, solutions to consider include Pads: Carbotech is popular with an XP10 and XP8 combo front/back. A pricier solution is also the Endless MX72 which is reportedly very capable on the track while also being low dust and quiet Rotors: two piece rotors for weight and cooling through vented/slotted design. Options from cheapest to priciest are Z1, dba, and racing brake. The DBA material has known incompatibility with endless pads Fluid: endless rf 650 is the best and priciest. Others are motul rbf660 and castrol srf Brake duct: a bit more work depending on your bumper but this should make a big diff. The only off the shelf option is stillen which includes tubing and the brake shield mount. The inlet duct is only available for the 09-13 stock or stillen bumpers. A few places make inlets for the 09-14 nismo. All other bumpers require custom fitting Titanium brake shims have been used by a few folks to positive results but they arent cheap or easy to find in stock JARblue and Sharad909 like this. __________________ OptionZero Build Thread Last edited by OptionZero; 01-23-2022 at 06:14 PM.

07-05-2020, 01:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
cv129 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,267 Drives: 09 Nismo, 16 Nismo Rep Power: 163995	At your pace, you are gonna need more than just pads, rotors and fluids. You’ll need cooling ducts. __________________ Setrab \| RE-71 \| SPL \| JRZ \| Nismo \| ARK \| Whiteline \| RacingBrake \| CJM Oil Pan \| Ti shield

07-07-2020, 05:04 PM	#5 (permalink)
Tractionless A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Atlantic SE Posts: 1,357 Drives: '10 K23 ST 7AT Rep Power: 30526	Wow is the Endless fluid that much better than Castrol SRF? I see it's roughly $30 less expensive as well! __________________ Toys Not Tots

07-07-2020, 05:58 PM	#6 (permalink)
OptionZero A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Sacramento Posts: 3,265 Drives: 15 370Z Nismo 6MT Rep Power: 214101	No personal experience, just hearsay. Porsche forum track folks says the stuff is incredible Tractionless likes this. __________________ OptionZero Build Thread

07-08-2020, 06:36 AM	#8 (permalink)
2011 Nismo#91 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: NJ Posts: 2,411 Drives: slowly Rep Power: 40570	That's a wasted pad, so much material left. That's 110% used up pad. Anyway my personal opinion is as such. The car has excellent brakes (sport) and needs little little more then good pads and fluid to make it exceptional. Expensive two piece rotors are will not provide any real benefit and will cause heat problems sooner then a simple one piece. Not to mention it will eat a hole in your wallet sooner. What I use is simple blanks, I can throw 3-4 away for the cost of a single replacement for a two piece. I use "Frozen Rotors" blanks because I notices a large amount of surface crack on regular. It costs about 110 a rotor with the "fr2015" 15% discount code which is less then half the cheapest 2 piece rebuild, not including the initial investment. Two piece rotors do have their place, in a striped out race car gunning for a prize and sponsors. XP10/8 are great and I use rbf600 but there are many good fluids out there, test and change your fluid reguarly. bigaudiofanat and Eagle like this.

07-08-2020, 10:28 AM	#14 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	I didn't have issues with the OEM rotor. The pads on the other hand if they're OEM or Nismo pads, I'd definitely look for something better. Nissan changed the stock brake fluid on Nismo's back in 2013. I'm not sure if they did it across all Akebono equipped vehicles. I've had good success running Winmax W5 pads. I replaced my front rotors with a DBA two piece set. I've gotten fast enough to run up to the limits of RBF600 using 2" ducts on a very hot day. Adjusting my braking helped keep me from hitting it again. I experienced this at Sebring where there are several heavy brake zones. Eagle likes this. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

07-08-2020, 01:18 PM	#15 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 69 Posts: 35,482 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684438	Think everyone knows my set-up by now. Pads - 10/8 combo. Rotors - Racing Brake. Fluid - Castrol. Ti shims. Brake cooling ducts. Started with the Stillen 2" kit. Then adopted that to a 3" hose. JARblue and cthorson910 like this. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

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