Laguna Seca Track Day Brake Issue

dua564 · 07-19-2016, 01:16 PM

Hi everyone,

I currently have a base, manual 2013 370Z with 18k miles. All I have done to it is replace the tires to wider 275R, 245F Michelin Pilot Super Sports.

The first time I went on a track was in Feb. on stock everything (except tires) to Laguna Seca and I noticed that after running 5 sessions throughout the day, my front brake pads were still great but my rear brake pads were completely worn to the backing plate. This was to the point that the TCS light on my console turned and stayed on. I decided to upgrade my stock OEM pads to something better, EBC Red Stuffs and also upgrade and flush my brake fluid with Motul RBF600. This combination initially felt great and pedal feel was amazing!

However, yesterday I went to Laguna Seca again (having flushed my brake fluid with Motul again and brakes still with a lot of pad left) and noticed that after three sessions, I started getting steering wheel vibrations whenever I braked from high speeds. I also drove the car around the paddock after every session to cool the brakes. Usually for the first 10 mins of every session, I didn't have the vibration issue but it would come back towards the second half to the point it got really violent and make it harder to control the car.

I inspected the car afterwards and noticed that my front pads held up fine and barely weared, however, my rears had again worn down almost close to the backing plate! There was also a lot of black crusty (burnt pad material I believe?) that I found on the wheels.

I was wondering, if the braking power of the car comes from the front:
-why did the rears wear down exponentially faster than the fronts?
-what could be the root cause of the vibration when braking?
-Should I use better (Carbotechs?) next time for track and also have the rotors resurfaced?

Your inputs would be greatly appreciated!

-Nik

street2soul · 07-19-2016, 01:30 PM

something doesn't sound right about brake bias. seems like rear is grabbing way too hard for OEM 370Z. I hardly wear out the rear pads with Carbotech XP10/8 front/rear combo. I have no idea about red stuff but I doubt that pads caused the rear to wear fast.

someone needs to chime on this.

edit: steering wheel shaking is probably warped rotors, but sometimes uneven pad material transfer onto the rotors could cause vibration. it happens when you don't bed in the pads properly for carbotechs, it's hard to detect. usually steering wheel vibratio is for the front rotors most commonly. on your next run at the track, you might not notice any vibration if it was the pad issue.

Elmo370z · 07-19-2016, 03:37 PM

Not bedding the brakes properly is what i was also thinking

BuckeyeZ · 07-19-2016, 03:54 PM

If you are driving with the traction control on (and I recommend this for a newbie), you will cause more wear to the rear brakes. If you are accelerating hard out of a corner and the rear starts to slide, the traction control will step-in and try to keep the rear of the car from getting away from you. This will happen even to a lesser degree on a street driven car if you accelerate hard from a turn.

I don't know if you are using an instructor, but I would guess that you need to be more smooth in your application of power and try to apply the power gradually as you are unwinding the wheel.

ban25 · 07-19-2016, 04:12 PM

VDC will eat rear pads guaranteed.

Best to turn it off and get used to running without it, or look into getting your car tuned with EcuTek, which includes a track-oriented replacement for VDC. Laguna Seca is one of the harder tracks on brakes, so it's not too surprising that you ran into this issue.

Your rotors likely have a lot of deposits on them after a track day with street pads. I would recommend replacing them entirely versus resurfacing. OEM blanks are fine -- otherwise you might try StopTech slotted.

Carbotech (XP10 front, XP8 rear) is a good option for a track pad. Still streetable too, so long as you're willing to deal with some noise.

Rusty · 07-19-2016, 08:50 PM

With the VDC on. If the rear starts to step out. It will apply a rear brake to straighten the car out. First time this happen to me. I had a instructor with me. He chewed my butt off for hitting the brakes mid-turn. I had to show him on the video that I didn't do it. It scared the crap out of me when it happen.

dua564 · 07-19-2016, 11:36 PM

Thanks guys for the suggestions and comments!

I was planning to just replace the rear brakes (same brake pad: EBC Red Stuff) for now and I will buy a set of track pads next time I go.

As for the rotors, I'm wondering if resurfacing / replacing is necessary if I just drop in a new set of brake pads and bed them in properly? Maybe, I should get them looked by a professional to determine the severity.

As for the VDC issue, how does the car behave on track if it's turned off? Is the difference quite significant with handling/braking?

B&W_Evader · 07-20-2016, 09:14 AM

Word of warning, If you don't know what the car will do with VDC off you shouldn't turn it off. Play around in a really large parking lot with the VDC off and try to pitch it sideways and hold it there while your making a turn (foot on the gas and about 25 mph). Give yourself lots of room (like 150 ft all around you) because the car will wip around the other way when it recovers and you'll be going backwards with your foot on the brake trying to stop before you hit something.

This is what an upgraded LSD fixes. Stiff swaybars help make it more controllable.

synolimit · 07-20-2016, 10:32 AM

Cars dangerous with everything left on! It's way to violent at applying brakes and killing engine power. Kill the VDC and YAW.

PS you're nuts running Laguna first on OEM pads!

Rusty · 07-20-2016, 10:53 AM

If you're tracking. Turn the VDC off. That should be the first thing you do. With it on, it will get you into trouble quicker then if it was off.

Spooler · 07-20-2016, 11:54 AM

I run with VDC off on the Dragon due to it's stupid activities. I hate VDC.

Hotrodz · 07-20-2016, 12:13 PM

VDC always off...

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

BuckeyeZ · 07-20-2016, 12:23 PM

Guys: I don't wait to start another debate on VDC, but if the OP is wearing out a set of rear pads that quickly, he is way too aggressive on the throttle. If he turns VDC off, this will be a guaranteed spin (hell, I have spun on track with VDC on!). Hopefully, he isn't being followed closely or doesn't hit anything until he learns the 'feel'.

OP: Feel free to turn the VDC off, but do it in a safe place. Maybe this is what you need to learn how hard you are pressing the gas and the power that your can can put down with very little throttle.

Good luck and stay safe!

Hotrodz · 07-20-2016, 12:40 PM

I think that you are spot on, regardless of if you track or drive it hard just for fun he needs to know how the car behaves with the VDC on and off. As you well know measuring the amount of slip, speed and braking in the first half of the turn is were bad stuff is most likely to happen.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

Rusty · 07-20-2016, 02:00 PM

What could be happening is with the VDC on. It's applying a rear brake trying to keep the car straight. OP, did you notice if the traction control light flashes coming out of the turns?

07-19-2016, 01:16 PM	#1 (permalink)
dua564 Base Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Bay Area Posts: 12 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 10	Laguna Seca Track Day Brake Issue Hi everyone, I currently have a base, manual 2013 370Z with 18k miles. All I have done to it is replace the tires to wider 275R, 245F Michelin Pilot Super Sports. The first time I went on a track was in Feb. on stock everything (except tires) to Laguna Seca and I noticed that after running 5 sessions throughout the day, my front brake pads were still great but my rear brake pads were completely worn to the backing plate. This was to the point that the TCS light on my console turned and stayed on. I decided to upgrade my stock OEM pads to something better, EBC Red Stuffs and also upgrade and flush my brake fluid with Motul RBF600. This combination initially felt great and pedal feel was amazing! However, yesterday I went to Laguna Seca again (having flushed my brake fluid with Motul again and brakes still with a lot of pad left) and noticed that after three sessions, I started getting steering wheel vibrations whenever I braked from high speeds. I also drove the car around the paddock after every session to cool the brakes. Usually for the first 10 mins of every session, I didn't have the vibration issue but it would come back towards the second half to the point it got really violent and make it harder to control the car. I inspected the car afterwards and noticed that my front pads held up fine and barely weared, however, my rears had again worn down almost close to the backing plate! There was also a lot of black crusty (burnt pad material I believe?) that I found on the wheels. I was wondering, if the braking power of the car comes from the front: -why did the rears wear down exponentially faster than the fronts? -what could be the root cause of the vibration when braking? -Should I use better (Carbotechs?) next time for track and also have the rotors resurfaced? Your inputs would be greatly appreciated! -Nik

07-19-2016, 01:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
street2soul Enthusiast Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 284 Drives: 13 Nismo Rep Power: 3369	something doesn't sound right about brake bias. seems like rear is grabbing way too hard for OEM 370Z. I hardly wear out the rear pads with Carbotech XP10/8 front/rear combo. I have no idea about red stuff but I doubt that pads caused the rear to wear fast. someone needs to chime on this. edit: steering wheel shaking is probably warped rotors, but sometimes uneven pad material transfer onto the rotors could cause vibration. it happens when you don't bed in the pads properly for carbotechs, it's hard to detect. usually steering wheel vibratio is for the front rotors most commonly. on your next run at the track, you might not notice any vibration if it was the pad issue. TechnicZ and carlitos_370z like this. Last edited by street2soul; 07-19-2016 at 01:39 PM.

07-19-2016, 03:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
BuckeyeZ Enthusiast Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Music City Posts: 291 Drives: 370Z BMW M4 Rep Power: 65	If you are driving with the traction control on (and I recommend this for a newbie), you will cause more wear to the rear brakes. If you are accelerating hard out of a corner and the rear starts to slide, the traction control will step-in and try to keep the rear of the car from getting away from you. This will happen even to a lesser degree on a street driven car if you accelerate hard from a turn. I don't know if you are using an instructor, but I would guess that you need to be more smooth in your application of power and try to apply the power gradually as you are unwinding the wheel. BGTV8 and carlitos_370z like this. __________________ Stillen \| EVO-R \| HPS \| K&N \| Hotchkis \| Modshack Oil Cooler \| SPL

07-19-2016, 04:12 PM	#5 (permalink)
ban25 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: SF, CA Posts: 339 Drives: 17 C7 Z06 M7 Rep Power: 65	VDC will eat rear pads guaranteed. Best to turn it off and get used to running without it, or look into getting your car tuned with EcuTek, which includes a track-oriented replacement for VDC. Laguna Seca is one of the harder tracks on brakes, so it's not too surprising that you ran into this issue. Your rotors likely have a lot of deposits on them after a track day with street pads. I would recommend replacing them entirely versus resurfacing. OEM blanks are fine -- otherwise you might try StopTech slotted. Carbotech (XP10 front, XP8 rear) is a good option for a track pad. Still streetable too, so long as you're willing to deal with some noise. BGTV8 likes this. __________________ 2017 Corvette Z06 7MT \| 1LE \| Stage 3 \| DSCSport

07-19-2016, 08:50 PM	#6 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 68 Posts: 34,851 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684436	With the VDC on. If the rear starts to step out. It will apply a rear brake to straighten the car out. First time this happen to me. I had a instructor with me. He chewed my butt off for hitting the brakes mid-turn. I had to show him on the video that I didn't do it. It scared the crap out of me when it happen. ban25, BGTV8 and carlitos_370z like this. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

07-19-2016, 03:37 PM	#3 (permalink)
Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,707 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295377	Not bedding the brakes properly is what i was also thinking

07-19-2016, 11:36 PM	#7 (permalink)
dua564 Base Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Bay Area Posts: 12 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 10	Thanks guys for the suggestions and comments! I was planning to just replace the rear brakes (same brake pad: EBC Red Stuff) for now and I will buy a set of track pads next time I go. As for the rotors, I'm wondering if resurfacing / replacing is necessary if I just drop in a new set of brake pads and bed them in properly? Maybe, I should get them looked by a professional to determine the severity. As for the VDC issue, how does the car behave on track if it's turned off? Is the difference quite significant with handling/braking?

07-20-2016, 09:14 AM	#8 (permalink)
B&W_Evader Track Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: CA Posts: 972 Drives: slower than before Rep Power: 386	Word of warning, If you don't know what the car will do with VDC off you shouldn't turn it off. Play around in a really large parking lot with the VDC off and try to pitch it sideways and hold it there while your making a turn (foot on the gas and about 25 mph). Give yourself lots of room (like 150 ft all around you) because the car will wip around the other way when it recovers and you'll be going backwards with your foot on the brake trying to stop before you hit something. This is what an upgraded LSD fixes. Stiff swaybars help make it more controllable. __________________ \|RIP\|6spd-sport\|OSG-LSD\|XP8\|RBF600\|Eibach Sways\|RE-71R\|FI-34Row\|Gen3-CAI\|Yaw P.S.\| Last edited by B&W_Evader; 07-20-2016 at 09:17 AM.

07-20-2016, 10:32 AM	#9 (permalink)
synolimit A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2013 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 5,051 Drives: 2013 Silver 370z Rep Power: 3388	Cars dangerous with everything left on! It's way to violent at applying brakes and killing engine power. Kill the VDC and YAW. PS you're nuts running Laguna first on OEM pads! gtkiller and carlitos_370z like this. __________________ 13 370z-

07-20-2016, 10:53 AM	#10 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 68 Posts: 34,851 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684436	If you're tracking. Turn the VDC off. That should be the first thing you do. With it on, it will get you into trouble quicker then if it was off. Hotrodz and carlitos_370z like this. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

07-20-2016, 11:54 AM	#11 (permalink)
Spooler A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Ga Posts: 13,503 Drives: 2013 Nismo 370z Rep Power: 2684391	I run with VDC off on the Dragon due to it's stupid activities. I hate VDC. Hotrodz likes this.

07-20-2016, 12:13 PM	#12 (permalink)
Hotrodz Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: NW, AZ Posts: 9,330 Drives: 10 Nissan 370z Nismo Rep Power: 2684384	VDC always off... Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk carlitos_370z likes this. __________________ *Fast Intentions TT Installed and Tuned by Seb at SpecialtyZ 610whp 560tq:\|Fast Intentions 3" TT-TDX*\|SpecialtyZ/Fast Intentions 72 Row Oil Cooler\|SZ 6 Puck Clutch & Flywheel\|3GsCustoms\|Z1\|Wavetrac\|Hotchkis\|Whiteline \|Blitz\|Fortune Auto 500\|Fujimura\|SPL\|H&R\|TK\|TWM\|RPM Rollbar\|Sparco\|Next Level Performance\|TrackSpec\|AeroFlow Dynamics\|Pioneer\|

07-20-2016, 12:23 PM	#13 (permalink)
BuckeyeZ Enthusiast Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Music City Posts: 291 Drives: 370Z BMW M4 Rep Power: 65	Guys: I don't wait to start another debate on VDC, but if the OP is wearing out a set of rear pads that quickly, he is way too aggressive on the throttle. If he turns VDC off, this will be a guaranteed spin (hell, I have spun on track with VDC on!). Hopefully, he isn't being followed closely or doesn't hit anything until he learns the 'feel'. OP: Feel free to turn the VDC off, but do it in a safe place. Maybe this is what you need to learn how hard you are pressing the gas and the power that your can can put down with very little throttle. Good luck and stay safe! Eagle, JARblue, DEpointfive0 and 2 others like this. __________________ Stillen \| EVO-R \| HPS \| K&N \| Hotchkis \| Modshack Oil Cooler \| SPL

07-20-2016, 12:40 PM	#14 (permalink)
Hotrodz Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: NW, AZ Posts: 9,330 Drives: 10 Nissan 370z Nismo Rep Power: 2684384	I think that you are spot on, regardless of if you track or drive it hard just for fun he needs to know how the car behaves with the VDC on and off. As you well know measuring the amount of slip, speed and braking in the first half of the turn is were bad stuff is most likely to happen. Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk Eagle likes this. __________________ *Fast Intentions TT Installed and Tuned by Seb at SpecialtyZ 610whp 560tq:\|Fast Intentions 3" TT-TDX\|SpecialtyZ/Fast Intentions 72 Row Oil Cooler\|SZ 6 Puck Clutch & Flywheel\|3GsCustoms\|Z1\|Wavetrac\|Hotchkis\|Whiteline \|Blitz\|Fortune Auto 500\|Fujimura\|SPL\|H&R\|TK\|TWM\|RPM Rollbar\|Sparco\|Next Level Performance\|TrackSpec\|AeroFlow Dynamics\|Pioneer\| Last edited by Hotrodz; 07-20-2016 at 12:43 PM.*

07-20-2016, 02:00 PM	#15 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 68 Posts: 34,851 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684436	What could be happening is with the VDC on. It's applying a rear brake trying to keep the car straight. OP, did you notice if the traction control light flashes coming out of the turns? __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

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