Subaru powered Toyota FT-86 Concept

vo2max99 · 05-31-2012, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drex

so you haven't even test driven one yet? sounds like your mind is already made up.

Stated I would have to actually drive one to say for sure one way or the other that's not the point.

The point is that it's ridiculous to somehow conclude the BRZ / FR-S somehow are over priced based almost solely on test track #'s / HP, etc.

It's ridiculous because the #'s don't even begin to scratch the surface when it comes to evaluating how good a sports car is. Pretty simple stuff.

If a car is more fun to drive than a car that is merely quicker the car most fun to drive has more worth for enthusiasts / those who value the experience behind the wheel vs. #'s.

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Vertigo · 05-31-2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vo2max99

Stated I would have to actually drive one to say for sure one way or the other that's not the point.

The point is that it's ridiculous to somehow conclude the BRZ / FR-S somehow are over priced based almost solely on test track #'s / HP, etc.

It's ridiculous because the #'s don't even begin to scratch the surface when it comes to evaluating how good a sports car is. Pretty simple stuff.

If a car is more fun to drive than a car that is merely quicker the car most fun to drive has more worth for enthusiasts / those who value the experience behind the wheel vs. #'s.

I agree with this. The most enjoyable car I've ever owned has been my AP1 S2000. The handling and high redline made the car so much fun - even more fun than the Z IMO, even though the Z is a much more powerful car.

vo2max99 · 05-31-2012, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikkolai

It's ok because all magazines rave about it so no need to test drive.

The point being there's no bases to suggest the BRZ / FR-S aren't worth the price if the reviews are right. There's also no bases to suggest the car will have a terrible re sale value as reports suggest otherwise.

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shadoquad · 05-31-2012, 09:46 AM

I have to agree with vo2max99.

Sports cars are not solely about statistics. If all you're basing a buying decision on is how fast a car gets to 60 or how much hp it has, you might be missing out on better cars.

This is why I tell anyone who's out car shopping to drive every vehicle they're interested in.

The Miata is an incredible sports car, for example. Cheap, light, and very well balanced. If you drive a Miata flat out and don't have fun in it, you're crazy.

You don't need to go insanely fast in light cars to have incredible loads of fun.

Edit: Heck, if it was all about speed, for the price, we'd all be Mustang owners.

vo2max99 · 05-31-2012, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spikuh

Yeah judging a cars worth higher because you can reach its limits earlier/easier doesn't make much sense because that is just illogical and dangerous to those around you on the road. We would appreciate it if you just drove like a sane person.

If the BRZ / FR-S are as over hyped as the vast majority have reports seem to exemplify there is a very good reason to think 27-29k would make them over priced.

I personally think it makes a lot more sense to understand that people have different opinions from you and you should understand that there is nothing wrong with this.

Plenty of cars produce far better #'s than the BRZ / FR-S for instance and many are more fun to drive as well. This is probably going to be the case with the Mustang 5.0 as well.

Bottom line is that to conclude that the BRZ / FR-S are somehow WAYYYYYYYY too little car for the money is perfectly coherent.

Before I were to decide one way or another I would have to personally drive the car myself. I'm not talking just around the block and back but ON THE TRACK WHERE I LIVE AND DIE BY THE FUEL GAUAGE!!!!!

I would never check off a car and or deem it "too expensive" simply because it's test track #'s weren't as good as some other's because test track #'s don't even begin to scratch the surface when it comes to evaluating how good a sports car is. I would pick it up in secondary market instead.

Oh as far as re sale value the BRZ / FR-S are expected to hold they value very well because projetions are always 100% correct, amirite!!!! I'm probably going to get a new MX-5 by around August though because nothing beats those BAMF doors. That and text book old school RWD dynamics. I know I have been going on and on about this BRZ / FR-S implying that I might get one when it goes on sale this summer, but nope, MX-5 for me!!!

( Click to show/hide )

[/QUOTE]

Break it down for you:

1.) You're clueless... The point is that a car with accessible limits doesn't have to be ran past sane limits to be fun to drive at sane speeds on public roads.

2.) Vast majority don't suggest 27-29K is too high a price for the BRZ. On the contrary they suggest the car is a bargain.

3.) Different "opinions" are fine when you're basing your "opinions" on fact vs. speculation. Saying the car is somehow not worth the price due to its test track #'s makes no sense for example.

4.) Yes many cars produce better #'s but there's no bases to assume a Mustang will be more fun to drive vs. the BRZ / FR-S. As mentioned before, "if" the BRZ / FR-S are indeed as much fun / rewarding to drive as the MX-5 (as reports indicate) there's no doubt they'll be tops in class and more fun / rewarding to drive vs. most 2/3X the price.

5.) Bottom-line is that it's absolutely ridiculous to assume the BRZ / FR-S will somehow not be worth the price.

6.) You live and die by the "fuel gauge"? How's accessing the the accessible limits of a car "living and dying by the fuel gauge"?

7.) You like used cars? Good for you!

8.) Who said "expected" re sale values are ALWAYS correct? Again you're completely missing the point. The point being there's no reason to assume the car won't have a great re sale value.

I said / implied I was going to purchase a BRZ? Nope I've simply pointed out how dumb it is to write one off based solely on it's test track #'s because test track #'s don't even begin to scratch the surface when it comes to evaluating how good a sports car is. The MX-5 is built well? Yeah I would concur. Will I purchase one in a few months? Probably.

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Spikuh · 05-31-2012, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vo2max99

Break it down for you:

1.) You're clueless... The point is that a car with accessible limits doesn't have to be ran past sane limits to be fun to drive at sane speeds on public roads.

2.) Vast majority don't suggest 27-29K is too high a price for the BRZ. On the contrary they suggest the car is a bargain.

3.) Different "opinions" are fine when you're basing your "opinions" on fact vs. speculation. Saying the car is somehow not worth the price due to its test track #'s makes no sense for example.

4.) Yes many cars produce better #'s but there's no bases to assume a Mustang will be more fun to drive vs. the BRZ / FR-S. As mentioned before, "if" the BRZ / FR-S are indeed as much fun / rewarding to drive as the MX-5 (as reports indicate) there's no doubt they'll be tops in class and more fun / rewarding to drive vs. most 2/3X the price.

5.) Bottom-line is that it's absolutely ridiculous to assume the BRZ / FR-S will somehow not be worth the price.

6.) You live and die by the "fuel gauge"? How's accessing the the accessible limits of a car "living and dying by the fuel gauge"?

7.) You like used cars? Good for you!

8.) Who said "expected" re sale values are ALWAYS correct? Again you're completely missing the point. The point being there's no reason to assume the car won't have a great re sale value.

I said / implied I was going to purchase a BRZ? Nope I've simply pointed out how dumb it is to write one off based solely on it's test track #'s because test track #'s don't even begin to scratch the surface when it comes to evaluating how good a sports car is. The MX-5 is built well? Yeah I would concur. Will I purchase one in a few months? Probably.

vo, allow me to break it down for you and explain my point since you are far to limited to figure this out. Now please pay attention because this won't take long. If you must, read it a few times so that maybe it will stick. (I am putting it in big bold letters so you can't miss the important part.)

Ready? Here we go.

People have different opinions than you.

There, see. Like I said, this wouldn't take long.

b1adesofcha0s · 05-31-2012, 11:46 AM

I think part of the reason people are saying they are overpriced is because of the dealer mark-up on these cars. They are being produced in limited numbers and are going to go for a bit more at first.

I think the car would be pretty awesome to buy used in a few years for a couple thousand cheaper. At the price it's at now, it's in the range of cars that I would say are a step up from it performance wise (Z, 5.0, etc.). If you look in the used market, you can get much better performing "driver's cars" for a little bit more than the BRZ. You can get a Lotus Elise or Porsche Cayman for that much. Yeah I know they have higher maintenance costs and stuff, but I'm strictly looking at the cost of the car.

The true value of a car to any person is really subjective. Some people just care about the driving experience and would be willing to pay extra for it even if the car's numbers don't hold up to other similar cars. I personally think you should look at everything together and evaluate the car overall after driving it. Sure the FRS/BRZ may give a great driving experience for some, but for others it might feel underpowered which might ruin the experience for them.

speedfreek · 05-31-2012, 12:19 PM

Couldn't have said it better myself, b1adesofcha0s.

vo2max99 you need to calm down about your precious. No one is trying to talk you out of your love for the FRS/BRZ/MX5. If any of those floats your boat then go buy it. No need to worry about someone else thinking it's over priced and under-powered. You are putting alot of effort into something that is falling on deaf ears. Some people won't buy the aforementioned cars due the fact that you feel

driving it or because the price range falls in where the younger crowd will be able to get their hands on it and do not want to be associated with that crowd. This of course is regardless of how the car performs overall, albeit under-powered or not.

NeoSHNIK · 05-31-2012, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1adesofcha0s

Sure the FRS/BRZ may give a great driving experience for some, but for others it might feel underpowered which might ruin the experience for them.

No, FRS/BRZ is the best possible car for everybody. Its stupid to look at track #'s. If you are just basing your opinion on some #'s, then you are ignorant and support terrorists. Bottom line is - go buy FRS/BRZ and tell you friends.
One last thing to remind - please don't look at track #'s. They are meaningless. To really understand how great FRS/BRZ is, don't just take it for a drive around the block. Instead, buy it and drive for a few years. Only then you can debate. For now, shut up and buy this car.
PS: Z suxx, Miata is the sh1t!

Vertigo · 05-31-2012, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoSHNIK

No, FRS/BRZ is the best possible car for everybody. Its stupid to look at track #'s. If you are just basing your opinion on some #'s, then you are ignorant and support terrorists. Bottom line is - go buy FRS/BRZ and tell you friends.
One last thing to remind - please don't look at track #'s. They are meaningless. To really understand how great FRS/BRZ is, don't just take it for a drive around the block. Instead, buy it and drive for a few years. Only then you can debate. For now, shut up and buy this car.
PS: Z suxx, Miata is the sh1t!

lolz

b1adesofcha0s · 05-31-2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoSHNIK

No, FRS/BRZ is the best possible car for everybody. Its stupid to look at track #'s. If you are just basing your opinion on some #'s, then you are ignorant and support terrorists. Bottom line is - go buy FRS/BRZ and tell you friends.
One last thing to remind - please don't look at track #'s. They are meaningless. To really understand how great FRS/BRZ is, don't just take it for a drive around the block. Instead, buy it and drive for a few years. Only then you can debate. For now, shut up and buy this car.
PS: Z suxx, Miata is the sh1t!

How dare you not complement the FRS/BRZ enough?!?! This is the ultimate goal of all automotive engineering and technology, absolute driving perfection. They might as well stop making other cars and just make the FRS/BRZ for everyone around the world to drive. If this were to happen, everyone would enjoy their cars so much it would spark a massive movement of world peace and everyone will live happily ever after. The End.

Spikuh · 05-31-2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1adesofcha0s

The true value of a car to any person is really subjective. Some people just care about the driving experience and would be willing to pay extra for it even if the car's numbers don't hold up to other similar cars. I personally think you should look at everything together and evaluate the car overall after driving it. Sure the FRS/BRZ may give a great driving experience for some, but for others it might feel underpowered which might ruin the experience for them.

This is the exact thing I am hoping vo reads and figures out. Hasn't happened yet...

shadoquad · 05-31-2012, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1adesofcha0s

I think part of the reason people are saying they are overpriced is because of the dealer mark-up on these cars. They are being produced in limited numbers and are going to go for a bit more at first.

They do this with every new performance car. The Boss Mustangs were 60k when they hit lots. The E92 M3 was 90k when it first showed up. Happens with every car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blades

I think the car would be pretty awesome to buy used in a few years for a couple thousand cheaper. At the price it's at now, it's in the range of cars that I would say are a step up from it performance wise (Z, 5.0, etc.). If you look in the used market, you can get much better performing "driver's cars" for a little bit more than the BRZ. You can get a Lotus Elise or Porsche Cayman for that much. Yeah I know they have higher maintenance costs and stuff, but I'm strictly looking at the cost of the car.

Performance step-up is not the most important feature of a sports car. If it was, we'd all own faster cars for the money than a 370z.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blades

The true value of a car to any person is really subjective. Some people just care about the driving experience and would be willing to pay extra for it even if the car's numbers don't hold up to other similar cars. I personally think you should look at everything together and evaluate the car overall after driving it. Sure the FRS/BRZ may give a great driving experience for some, but for others it might feel underpowered which might ruin the experience for them.

Agree that people have opinions and that value is subjective. But both sides of this argument should test drive the car before praising or damning it. People speculating that it's underpowered haven't driven it, either.

Spikuh · 05-31-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadoquad

Agree that people have opinions and that value is subjective. But both sides of this argument should test drive the car before praising or damning it. People speculating that it's underpowered haven't driven it, either.

I agree 100%. However, bludgeoning people over the head with your opinion and deriding them for having their own opinion (especially when both sides are on equal footing - i.e. never driven said car) is a piss poor way of trying to convince others to see it your way.

b1adesofcha0s · 05-31-2012, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadoquad

They do this with every new performance car. The Boss Mustangs were 60k when they hit lots. The E92 M3 was 90k when it first showed up. Happens with every car.

That's true. I guess we just have to get past that period for the car to reach its true price point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadoquad

Performance step-up is not the most important feature of a sports car. If it was, we'd all own faster cars for the money than a 370z.

Maybe not to you, but that's why I said value is a subjective thing. Performance step up is one of the most important things for me for my next car, but it's not the only thing. Also have to look at cost, looks, interior, etc. My next car after my Z will most definitely not be one that is a step down in performance. At the minimum it should have the potential to be a step up after some mods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadoquad

Agree that people have opinions and that value is subjective. But both sides of this argument should test drive the car before praising or damning it. People speculating that it's underpowered haven't driven it, either.

Exactly, but of course this is the internetz and we will forever argue and bench race without ever even sitting in the car.

05-31-2012, 11:46 AM	#7 (permalink)
b1adesofcha0s A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: MD Posts: 40,963 Drives: HypeTrain Choo Choo! Rep Power: 142	I think part of the reason people are saying they are overpriced is because of the dealer mark-up on these cars. They are being produced in limited numbers and are going to go for a bit more at first. I think the car would be pretty awesome to buy used in a few years for a couple thousand cheaper. At the price it's at now, it's in the range of cars that I would say are a step up from it performance wise (Z, 5.0, etc.). If you look in the used market, you can get much better performing "driver's cars" for a little bit more than the BRZ. You can get a Lotus Elise or Porsche Cayman for that much. Yeah I know they have higher maintenance costs and stuff, but I'm strictly looking at the cost of the car. The true value of a car to any person is really subjective. Some people just care about the driving experience and would be willing to pay extra for it even if the car's numbers don't hold up to other similar cars. I personally think you should look at everything together and evaluate the car overall after driving it. Sure the FRS/BRZ may give a great driving experience for some, but for others it might feel underpowered which might ruin the experience for them. __________________ Project: b1adeZmobile (2009 370Z) \| Uprev Tune by AAM Competition \| Berk Exhaust Project: b1adeZmobile 2.0 (2014 C7 Z51) \| Corsa Xtreme Exhaust

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05-31-2012, 09:46 AM	#4 (permalink)
shadoquad A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: . Posts: 42,608 Drives: . Rep Power: 3887	I have to agree with vo2max99. Sports cars are not solely about statistics. If all you're basing a buying decision on is how fast a car gets to 60 or how much hp it has, you might be missing out on better cars. This is why I tell anyone who's out car shopping to drive every vehicle they're interested in. The Miata is an incredible sports car, for example. Cheap, light, and very well balanced. If you drive a Miata flat out and don't have fun in it, you're crazy. You don't need to go insanely fast in light cars to have incredible loads of fun. Edit: Heck, if it was all about speed, for the price, we'd all be Mustang owners.

05-31-2012, 12:19 PM	#8 (permalink)
speedfreek A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Huntsville,AL Posts: 1,724 Drives: '12 370Z PW 6sp Rep Power: 19	Couldn't have said it better myself, b1adesofcha0s. vo2max99 you need to calm down about your precious. No one is trying to talk you out of your love for the FRS/BRZ/MX5. If any of those floats your boat then go buy it. No need to worry about someone else thinking it's over priced and under-powered. You are putting alot of effort into something that is falling on deaf ears. Some people won't buy the aforementioned cars due the fact that you feel driving it or because the price range falls in where the younger crowd will be able to get their hands on it and do not want to be associated with that crowd. This of course is regardless of how the car performs overall, albeit under-powered or not.