Lets talk science, Stillen Gen3 Intake

luigi90210 · 11-03-2013, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

I was getting to that keeping the compressor cooler with cooler air is always better. Bringing in 60 degree ambient temp vs 200 engine bay temps will always add HP! Doesn't matter if it has a intercooler or not. Starting at a lower charged temp vs a higher one will yield in a cold side intercooler with cooler denser temps. On my cars colder air didn't add psi as I was ecu and waste gate psi controlled, but using your example "you may get 1 more psi," I don't know about you but my turbos psi ran me 15-20 more HP!!! I'll take that all day long to put the filter in a cai vs a sri.

But if you already have a IC you're not going to buy another one. And again it does make a difference no matter the IC! If its 60 degrees out, a compressor is 250 degrees, that mix goes through the IC, and out the other side pops out 65 degrees it makes a huge difference vs you put the filter in the engine bay where its 200 degrees, the compressor is again 250 degrees, that mixes and goes through the IC and out pops 90 degrees this time. 30 degree intake temps is huge in HP! I've seen 20-30 HP swings playing with this stuff on my WRX's while tuning them.

really a bigger intercooler doesnt do anything?
what exactly did you do to that WRX? i can tell you i gained an easy 50hp converting to a big FMIC on my turbo eclipse compared to the stock dinky SMIC, compared to the crap 10hp i got from a CAI on that car(i ended up selling it and moving to a SRI and i didnt lose power) hell my IATs also dropped big time stepping up to the bigger intercooler

also i dont know where you are getting those numbers but im pretty sure it only plays out with stock intercoolers(and even then it doesnt seeing as MCM put a CAI on a R34 and only gained 1kw and that was a stupid setup with the filter out in front of the dyno fan) but stepping up to a bigger intercooler will do much more for your car over a CAI but hey what would you WRX guys know, you all tend to use small TMIC over a FMIC

Chuck33079 · 11-03-2013, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luigi90210

really a bigger intercooler doesnt do anything?

I keep re-reading his post, and I can't find where he said a bigger intercooler didn't do anything. Of course a bigger intercooler will cool the air more, assuming there isn't too much pressure drop across the core and you have to spin the turbo faster (generating more heat) to maintain the same boost pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luigi90210

also i dont know where you are getting those numbers but im pretty sure it only plays out with stock intercoolers(and even then it doesnt seeing as MCM put a CAI on a R34 and only gained 1kw and that was a stupid setup with the filter out in front of the dyno fan) but stepping up to a bigger intercooler will do much more for your car over a CAI

Colder air into the inlet side of the intercooler will always end up with colder air out of the intercooler. Any intercooler. I'm not sure how that's even a point of discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luigi90210

but hey what would you WRX guys know, you all tend to use small TMIC over a FMIC

That's because going to a FMIC on that motor adds quite a bit of lag. I ran both. The TMIC heat soaks more when stopped, but it's a lot more responsive. You're comparing it to an inline four where going to a FMIC didn't add that much piping. On an EJ, it added eight feet of pipe..

synolimit · 11-03-2013, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

I keep re-reading his post, and I can't find where he said a bigger intercooler didn't do anything. Of course a bigger intercooler will cool the air more, assuming there isn't too much pressure drop across the core and you have to spin the turbo faster (generating more heat) to maintain the same boost pressure.

Colder air into the inlet side of the intercooler will always end up with colder air out of the intercooler. Any intercooler. I'm not sure how that's even a point of discussion.

That's because going to a FMIC on that motor adds quite a bit of lag. I ran both. The TMIC heat soaks more when stopped, but it's a lot more responsive. You're comparing it to an inline four where going to a FMIC didn't add that much piping. On an EJ, it added eight feet of pipe..

Correct. I never said a bigger one wouldnt do anything. Chuck is correct on everything he said and what I was trying to say.

Actually chuck I tuned and dyno'd from just the OEM tmic and my FMIC and saw no lag. In fact my FMIC lines never touched the tmic lines on HP or TQ during the runs. It gained quite a bit of everything and with the cooler charge temps timing could be increased. I will say this though, a turbos size does make a difference. In 09 the WRX got the same flow rate turbo as the 08+ STI. That's why WRX's now are faster then stis and can make the same power or more. They are lighter, better gear ratios, and run a OEM turbo about 38 lbs/min. Now the 08 and below WRX turbo (the little td04) is about 28 lbs/min. That little thing would probably see negative results using our large 12x26x3" FMIC.

Not that it matters here but here's a before and after tmic vs FMIC only. Also as you can see, full boost by 3600 rpm with such a big core is awesome!

Here's my best maxed out OEM motor, turbo, tranny, clutch etc. I believe it was 22-23psi with a taper down to 15-16psi. Still sub 4000 rpm and boost hitting mid 3000.

Chuck33079 · 11-04-2013, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

Correct. I never said a bigger one wouldnt do anything. Chuck is correct on everything he said and what I was trying to say.

Actually chuck I tuned and dyno'd from just the OEM tmic and my FMIC and saw no lag. In fact my FMIC lines never touched the tmic lines on HP or TQ during the runs. It gained quite a bit of everything and with the cooler charge temps timing could be increased. I will say this though, a turbos size does make a difference. In 09 the WRX got the same flow rate turbo as the 08+ STI. That's why WRX's now are faster then stis and can make the same power or more. They are lighter, better gear ratios, and run a OEM turbo about 38 lbs/min. Now the 08 and below WRX turbo (the little td04) is about 28 lbs/min. That little thing would probably see negative results using our large 12x26x3" FMIC.

Not that it matters here but here's a before and after tmic vs FMIC only. Also as you can see, full boost by 3600 rpm with such a big core is awesome!

Here's my best maxed out OEM motor, turbo, tranny, clutch etc. I believe it was 22-23psi with a taper down to 15-16psi. Still sub 4000 rpm and boost hitting mid 3000.

I don't want to be the guy arguing semantics, but we're talking about two different things. You're correct, the FMIC doesn't materially effect the boost threshold of the turbo. I was talking about lag during changes in throttle position. At least for me, there was a noticable increase in the time it took for there to be positive pressure in the manifold from having to pressurize an additional eight feet of pipe. Granted, I was still running the OEM VF39 and those don't exactly move a lot of air.

andre12031948 · 11-04-2013, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

I don't want to be the guy arguing semantics, but we're talking about two different things. You're correct, the FMIC doesn't materially effect the boost threshold of the turbo. I was talking about lag during changes in throttle position. At least for me, there was a noticable increase in the time it took for there to be positive pressure in the manifold from having to pressurize an additional eight feet of pipe. Granted, I was still running the OEM VF39 and those don't exactly move a lot of air.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Don't a STOCK 370z's top h.p. numbers start at 7,000 rpm?

Chuck33079 · 11-04-2013, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andre12031948

Correct me if I'm wrong. Don't a STOCK 370z's top h.p. numbers start at 7,000 rpm?

The ones Syno posted? That's not from a Z. Z dyno charts peak around 7k or so. I haven't looked at a stock dyno recently, but I remember the peak being fairly near redline.

andre12031948 · 11-04-2013, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

The ones Syno posted? That's not from a Z. Z dyno charts peak around 7k or so. I haven't looked at a stock dyno recently, but I remember the peak being fairly near redline.

Sorry, I thought it was a Z's. 5,400rpm top H.P.?

synolimit · 11-04-2013, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

I don't want to be the guy arguing semantics, but we're talking about two different things. You're correct, the FMIC doesn't materially effect the boost threshold of the turbo. I was talking about lag during changes in throttle position. At least for me, there was a noticable increase in the time it took for there to be positive pressure in the manifold from having to pressurize an additional eight feet of pipe. Granted, I was still running the OEM VF39 and those don't exactly move a lot of air.

I was referring to lag. If full boost can be achieved well below 4000rpm, the turbo is effective at filling the FMIC without seeing any negative effect. Again though it depends on the turbos size. I'm not sure how small the vf39 was but the 09 and 08 WRX/STI get about 38 lbs/min turbos in the vf52 and vf48.

Chuck33079 · 11-04-2013, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

I was referring to lag. If full boost can be achieved well below 4000rpm, the turbo is effective at filling the FMIC without seeing any negative effect. Again though it depends on the turbos size. I'm not sure how small the vf39 was but the 09 and 08 WRX/STI get about 38 lbs/min turbos in the vf52 and vf48.

I think we're not communicating well. It seemed like you were talking about the minimum rpm required for the turbo to reach full boost, which you are correct in that the FMIC does not really change that. I was referring to the time it takes for the piping and core to refill after for example, you let off the gas and get back on it again. There was absolutely a noticeable difference between FMIC and TMIC in this regard. It's just physics. Before any pressurized air reaches the motor, it has to pressurize the core and piping. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I wanted to make sure we're discussing the same thing.

The VF39 was the same as the VF48, with the outlet of the compressor side having a slightly different shape.

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