Different Take on Overheating Issue

chubbs · 07-17-2009, 08:12 AM

I have it on good authority that some 350Z's DID have oil overheating problems, but the fact that there was no temp indicator and no limp mode meant that the issue was far less obvious than with the 370Z.

I'm trying to get inside Nissan's head on this one - both in the design stage and currently. Clearly they knew that there was a problem before they started to sell the car, that's why they fitted oil coolers to the cars the press reviewed.

Why did they fit the temp indicator and limp mode in the first place? Presumably because of the problems they'd had with some 350Zs and as an 'upgrade' from the 350Z? Not too sure about that one.

With the benefit of hindsight, if cost was an issue (and surely it's always an issue when you're in business), wouldn't it have been better to fit an oil cooler INSTEAD OF the temp indicator & limp mode? Too late for that now.

Will Nissan ever admit that this part of the design of their car is unsatisfactory? Well - they will never announce it to the world, but if, in the near future, a 370Z is released with a revised set-up in this area they will have tacitly admitted the design was flawed. Then they will have the problem of the several owners who feel that they are owed something by Nissan because they have engines that are prone to overheating. So, paradoxically, the complaining may make Nissan very cagey about introducing improvements in this area, for fear of admitting their mistake.

Personally, if I were Carlos Ghosn I would bite the bullet by introducing an oil cooler asap to all new cars and by retrofitting an oil cooler to all 370Z's that want one. The reason for this is that the problem is now such common knowledge that it must be hitting sales of what is potentially a really successful model for Nissan. A little money spent now on existing customers would do wonders for the sales of the 370Z over the next 6 years - and Nissan needs sales.

That's what I think.

Lug · 07-17-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chubbs

Why did they fit the temp indicator and limp mode in the first place? Presumably because of the problems they'd had with some 350Zs and as an 'upgrade' from the 350Z? Not too sure about that one.

Limp mode was initiated because they changed their bearing design by dropping lead from the formulation (think eco-friendly). This meant that at temps above 300, the bearing would start breaking down faster than the older design. They noticed this and instituted the limp mode as a protection feature.

chubbs · 07-17-2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug

Limp mode was initiated because they changed their bearing design by dropping lead from the formulation (think eco-friendly). This meant that at temps above 300, the bearing would start breaking down faster than the older design. They noticed this and instituted the limp mode as a protection feature.

Thanks Lug - +1 rep

kannibul · 07-17-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug

Limp mode was initiated because they changed their bearing design by dropping lead from the formulation (think eco-friendly). This meant that at temps above 300, the bearing would start breaking down faster than the older design. They noticed this and instituted the limp mode as a protection feature.

While true, then I assume it'd also be true with other cars that don't have an oil temp guage there for the driver to see.

For example, how about on the G37? Same engine, but AKAIK, no oil temp guage. Are they complaining as much about oil temps getting over 200F?

Why is 200F bad? or 210F, 220F, 240..260? At what point does oil become less than what it was 10F cooler? How long at 260F does it take for the oil to have measurable degradation? How many miles/months does that translate to for the average driver?

All that...lol

Lug · 07-17-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

While true, then I assume it'd also be true with other cars that don't have an oil temp guage there for the driver to see.

For example, how about on the G37? Same engine, but AKAIK, no oil temp guage. Are they complaining as much about oil temps getting over 200F?

Why is 200F bad? or 210F, 220F, 240..260? At what point does oil become less than what it was 10F cooler? How long at 260F does it take for the oil to have measurable degradation? How many miles/months does that translate to for the average driver?

All that...lol

The article I read on the bearing problem noted 300 degrees as point break for Nissan. I have to assume the 280 degree limp mode is just a bit of cushion. As far as general oil breakdown at what temp, I really am not that well versed in oil theory to make a call.

Endgame · 07-17-2009, 09:22 AM

So... I take it the RX8 is a REAL sports car then as it has not one but TWO oiler coolers!

Sorry 370Z and Nissan - You just got owned by an RX8!!!!!

J/K; that felt SOOOO good.

Nissan - You have a great product that could be a superior product. If you want to capture the rest of the market share and boost your PR (remember the GTR tranny incidient), FIX THIS!

kannibul · 07-17-2009, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaws12

Being new to the forum, I have been trying to read as many of the older posts as possible to gain as much knowledge and information as possible from the Z Community.

As far as I can tell, the most common "major" complaint I have been reading about is the oil temperature issue.

For a different point of view, I want to bring up an interesting situation that is quite similar in terms of dominating the forums.

When Porsche was building the 996 series 911s, there was a common thread regarding the failure of the rear main seal (RMS) in the 3.6 liter engine. From reading the posts on Rennlist and Rennspeed it appeared that at least 50% of owners were experiencing the RMS failure and needed new engines (which Porsche did provide under warranty to some). Porsche was aware of the engineering design defect in the engine, but thruought the life of the 996 series, they never addressed the flaw because in reality, the RMS issue affected such a small percentage of cars the fix was cost prohibitive. There were some dealers who never experienced a service call for the issue.

As I relate the above to the oil temperature issue, I think Nissan's take would be very different than the opinions posted on an "Enthusiasts" forum, which is representative of a very small percentage of owners and potential owners. So few people will ever track the car or drive it to its limits. Probably under 5% of owners.

The problem is just amplified on the forums because of the small community and heavy posters. The reality is so few of us will ever have an overheating issue that Nissan will probably view the "problem" as insignificant and not cost effective to create a design change.

No different the Porsche. That's the car business!!!

That, and unlike a rear main seal - this issue is easily corrected by installing an aftermarket oil cooler.

wolf41779 · 07-17-2009, 02:40 PM

Just bought my car yesterday and was driving back form PHX and my oil temp hit 255 degrees. It was 114 degrees out according to temp reading on the dash. I pulled over and sat for about 5 minutes and the temp came down immediately to about 230. Kept my eye on the oil temp from then on, but it never went up that far again. Interesting...

Diversion · 07-17-2009, 02:44 PM

Except that i'm pretty sure everybody sees 210-240 degrees on average everyday when they drive.. I haven't seen someone say their oil temps are fine/normal yet with their 370.

kannibul · 07-17-2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diversion

Except that i'm pretty sure everybody sees 210-240 degrees on average everyday when they drive.. I haven't seen someone say their oil temps are fine/normal yet with their 370.

Does anyone know what *is* normal?

If I had a good thermometer, I'd stick it on the pan of my wife's civic after she gets done driving it.

bluzman · 07-17-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diversion

Except that i'm pretty sure everybody sees 210-240 degrees on average everyday when they drive.. I haven't seen someone say their oil temps are fine/normal yet with their 370.

Huh?

What threads are you reading?

IDZRVIT · 07-17-2009, 03:16 PM

I'll say this again folks, get off your butts and read what it takes to get an oil API SM certified. It's apples and oranges compared with API SG. I don't understand why some people just can't reel in the fact that additives to oil in this day and age make them far superior to withstand the heat genereated by the newer engines of today with highly advanced technology compared with engines just 10 years ago. If it were not for better lubricants and materials engineering, we would not have these highly advanced engines available. 260 deg oil temps are yesteryear. 280 deg are today. I am not going to lose any sleep over whether or not my engine will wear prematurely unless I abuse it e.g. tracking the car. Yes, that's abuse. So protect your engine and get a cooler. Protect yourself and get a roll bar and a helmet, etc. I bet there are some folks in here who think their insurance company should pony up and make good on a claim if by some fluke you write off your car while tracking it! Or lay blame on a faulty part and expect the responsibility lies with Nissan or the race track or whatever to make good on the repairs. Anyway, these threads are still very entertaining.

TheWeatherman · 07-17-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IDZRVIT

I'll say this again folks, get off your butts and read what it takes to get an oil API SM certified. It's apples and oranges compared with API SG. I don't understand why some people just can't reel in the fact that additives to oil in this day and age make them far superior to withstand the heat genereated by the newer engines of today with highly advanced technology compared with engines just 10 years ago. If it were not for better lubricants and materials engineering, we would not have these highly advanced engines available. 260 deg oil temps are yesteryear. 280 deg are today. I am not going to lose any sleep over whether or not my engine will wear prematurely unless I abuse it e.g. tracking the car. Yes, that's abuse. So protect your engine and get a cooler. Protect yourself and get a roll bar and a helmet, etc. I bet there are some folks in here who think their insurance company should pony up and make good on a claim if by some fluke you write off your car while tracking it! Or lay blame on a faulty part and expect the responsibility lies with Nissan or the race track or whatever to make good on the repairs. Anyway, these threads are still very entertaining.

Look on the sticky above! It's still going and still just as entertaining as ever. Now in three different spots! I agree with you IDZRVIT. I think it has become the opinion of the vast majority on here.

kannibul · 07-17-2009, 04:21 PM

According to Mobil's site, 400F is where their oil starts having issues.

I think a lot of us are being paranoid...or are tracking the car and pushing it to limp mode and are raising fears...

travisjb · 07-17-2009, 04:58 PM

it's not just about oil break-down... if that were the only issue I agree, I wouldn't worry until I saw 320-330+. We are concerned about the materials in the engine, e.g., bearing issue referenced, that are susceptible to heat... there is a reason for the conservative limp mode setting, you can be sure

07-17-2009, 08:12 AM	#1 (permalink)
chubbs A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Zeeland Posts: 1,046 Drives: 2016 370z Auto-Grey Rep Power: 7587	I have it on good authority that some 350Z's DID have oil overheating problems, but the fact that there was no temp indicator and no limp mode meant that the issue was far less obvious than with the 370Z. I'm trying to get inside Nissan's head on this one - both in the design stage and currently. Clearly they knew that there was a problem before they started to sell the car, that's why they fitted oil coolers to the cars the press reviewed. Why did they fit the temp indicator and limp mode in the first place? Presumably because of the problems they'd had with some 350Zs and as an 'upgrade' from the 350Z? Not too sure about that one. With the benefit of hindsight, if cost was an issue (and surely it's always an issue when you're in business), wouldn't it have been better to fit an oil cooler INSTEAD OF the temp indicator & limp mode? Too late for that now. Will Nissan ever admit that this part of the design of their car is unsatisfactory? Well - they will never announce it to the world, but if, in the near future, a 370Z is released with a revised set-up in this area they will have tacitly admitted the design was flawed. Then they will have the problem of the several owners who feel that they are owed something by Nissan because they have engines that are prone to overheating. So, paradoxically, the complaining may make Nissan very cagey about introducing improvements in this area, for fear of admitting their mistake. Personally, if I were Carlos Ghosn I would bite the bullet by introducing an oil cooler asap to all new cars and by retrofitting an oil cooler to all 370Z's that want one. The reason for this is that the problem is now such common knowledge that it must be hitting sales of what is potentially a really successful model for Nissan. A little money spent now on existing customers would do wonders for the sales of the 370Z over the next 6 years - and Nissan needs sales. That's what I think. __________________ . '03 Grey >>> '06 Black >>>'10 Silver >>> '16 Grey ^

07-17-2009, 02:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
Diversion Enthusiast Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Jacksonville, Florida Posts: 393 Drives: 09 370Z Silver/Persi Rep Power: 285	Except that i'm pretty sure everybody sees 210-240 degrees on average everyday when they drive.. I haven't seen someone say their oil temps are fine/normal yet with their 370. __________________ 09 370Z Touring + Sport + Nav (Status Elite Intakes) (Berk HFCs) (Invidia Q300 CBE) (Nismo Swaybars) 99 Civic Si (Daily Driver, completely unmolested stock rarity)

07-17-2009, 03:16 PM	#12 (permalink)
IDZRVIT A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2009 Location: Halifax Posts: 1,659 Drives: '13 CTS-V, '76 Vette Rep Power: 27	I'll say this again folks, get off your butts and read what it takes to get an oil API SM certified. It's apples and oranges compared with API SG. I don't understand why some people just can't reel in the fact that additives to oil in this day and age make them far superior to withstand the heat genereated by the newer engines of today with highly advanced technology compared with engines just 10 years ago. If it were not for better lubricants and materials engineering, we would not have these highly advanced engines available. 260 deg oil temps are yesteryear. 280 deg are today. I am not going to lose any sleep over whether or not my engine will wear prematurely unless I abuse it e.g. tracking the car. Yes, that's abuse. So protect your engine and get a cooler. Protect yourself and get a roll bar and a helmet, etc. I bet there are some folks in here who think their insurance company should pony up and make good on a claim if by some fluke you write off your car while tracking it! Or lay blame on a faulty part and expect the responsibility lies with Nissan or the race track or whatever to make good on the repairs. Anyway, these threads are still very entertaining. __________________ "America.... still builds rockets!" Vette: 355 cid, 400 rwhp '13 CTS-V Coupe: 6.2L LSA, 556HP

07-17-2009, 04:58 PM	#15 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 189	it's not just about oil break-down... if that were the only issue I agree, I wouldn't worry until I saw 320-330+. We are concerned about the materials in the engine, e.g., bearing issue referenced, that are susceptible to heat... there is a reason for the conservative limp mode setting, you can be sure __________________ 2009 370Z #104 For Sale

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07-17-2009, 09:22 AM	#6 (permalink)
Endgame A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Phoenix Posts: 1,613 Drives: Nothing Now! Rep Power: 224	So... I take it the RX8 is a REAL sports car then as it has not one but TWO oiler coolers! Sorry 370Z and Nissan - You just got owned by an RX8!!!!! J/K; that felt SOOOO good. Nissan - You have a great product that could be a superior product. If you want to capture the rest of the market share and boost your PR (remember the GTR tranny incidient), FIX THIS!

07-17-2009, 02:40 PM	#8 (permalink)
wolf41779 Base Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Desert Posts: 83 Drives: PW 370 Rep Power: 16	Just bought my car yesterday and was driving back form PHX and my oil temp hit 255 degrees. It was 114 degrees out according to temp reading on the dash. I pulled over and sat for about 5 minutes and the temp came down immediately to about 230. Kept my eye on the oil temp from then on, but it never went up that far again. Interesting...

07-17-2009, 04:21 PM	#14 (permalink)
kannibul A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Jenks, OK Posts: 2,281 Drives: 370z Touring/Sport Rep Power: 267	According to Mobil's site, 400F is where their oil starts having issues. I think a lot of us are being paranoid...or are tracking the car and pushing it to limp mode and are raising fears...