Nissan 370Z Forum  

Danger of helical diff on RWD cars: Quaife, Wavetrac

Looking at replacing my vlsd with an aftermarket diff and I usually run on mountain roads with tight turns.Deciding between quaife and wavetrac which are both torque sensing / helical

Go Back   Nissan 370Z Forum > Nissan 370Z Tech Area > Engine & Drivetrain


Like Tree66Likes
  • 5 Post By 2011 Nismo#91
  • 7 Post By Rusty
  • 9 Post By JARblue
  • 2 Post By cv129
  • 8 Post By Spooler
  • 12 Post By Hotrodz
  • 10 Post By Rusty
  • 4 Post By AlWakRa
  • 1 Post By cv129
  • 6 Post By Rusty
  • 1 Post By DarkJak
  • 1 Post By Whjaxn17

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-05-2021, 12:56 AM   #1 (permalink)
Base Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Aus
Posts: 18
Drives: 09 MT Sport
Rep Power: 8
Zilver is on a distinguished road
Default Danger of helical diff on RWD cars

Looking at replacing my vlsd with an aftermarket diff and I usually run on mountain roads with tight turns.Deciding between quaife and wavetrac which are both torque sensing / helical diffs. Didnt want to go clutch type diff as i hear they induce understeer at tight corners more than torsen unless you force them to break traction for the purpose of drifting

As might know torsen diff has cornering speed advantage compared to open diff becos it sends torque to the outside wheel when cornering as opposed to open diff where torque is not being sent to either wheel

My question is whether torsen diff could cause snap oversteer if not being more careful with throttle? As seen for example cars with torsen diffs like s2ks, mustang and those newer cars with E diffs which act bit like torque sensing have nose dive accidents during cornering. With Wavetrac the risk is even larger because torque doesnt get cut at decel which imo sounds really dangerous to me especially when weight transitions to front during braking.

As far as i understand clutch types send torque to both wheels during cornering which is less dangerous becos it wont nose dive as the inside wheel has torque to push the car out during cornering?

https://youtu.be/wMZJ1E6BI0c

Here is a video of a crash with a supra vs ae86 which some of you migjt have seen (driver over corrected but beside the point). An example of a nose dive during corner exit that i am most afraid, seems to be a helical diff as only left outside wheel is pushing the car to the inner wall on the right? Would a clutch lsd induce such effect despite ppl say they give confidence at corner exits?

Can anyone who had installed torsen diff and been on autocross or track days give advice ? And for those who have clutch type is understeer very noticable at tight corners?

Last edited by Zilver; 05-03-2022 at 03:33 AM.
Zilver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2021, 07:41 AM   #2 (permalink)
A True Z Fanatic
 
2011 Nismo#91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,379
Drives: slowly
Rep Power: 33858
2011 Nismo#91 has a reputation beyond repute2011 Nismo#91 has a reputation beyond repute2011 Nismo#91 has a reputation beyond repute2011 Nismo#91 has a reputation beyond repute2011 Nismo#91 has a reputation beyond repute2011 Nismo#91 has a reputation beyond repute2011 Nismo#91 has a reputation beyond repute2011 Nismo#91 has a reputation beyond repute2011 Nismo#91 has a reputation beyond repute2011 Nismo#91 has a reputation beyond repute2011 Nismo#91 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

They both types send torque to both wheels. That video is most likely showing lift off oversteer then any specific differential issue, but it's hard to tell anything from it really. Those nose dive accidents are driver error of applying too much power too early in a rear drive car not the type of differential.

Helical, very linear engagement and predictable. No adjustment to engagement what you get from the mfg is it. Low noise compared to clutch type. Little to no maintenance.

Clutch, adjustable engagement to suit every event. You want a quick lock up you can set it, less aggressive you can set that too. It is noisy especially with low speed cornering. Regular maintenance needed, fluid changes, clutch changes. Not really an issue if you constantly taking it apart to adjust it.

https://www.kmpdrivetrain.com/differ...-differential/
__________________
GTR TT 493Whp/431lbft, Ecutek, Southbend 6puck,Quaife, RPM RollBar 4Point, R888R, JRZ RSPro F(10R/10C) R(10R/6C) 1000f500r inlbs+150inlbs Tender, SPL everywhere.Full Specs
2011 Nismo#91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2021, 08:10 AM   #3 (permalink)
Ronin Samurai - Assassin
 
Rusty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky
Age: 68
Posts: 34,812
Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M
Rep Power: 2684436
Rusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond repute
Talking

I have the OS Giken. It's been seamless. Can't tell it's in the diff. It's quite. But you have to use the OS Giken gear lube with it. Mine is set to 1.5 way and 75% lock up. The oversteer and understeer is chassis set up.

I had a Detroit Locker in one vehicle. THAT would cause oversteer and understeer with the gas pedal. Let off the gas mid turn and it would pull the front into the turn. Give it gas and it would push the front. And it was really noisy. It would bang and clang when it released and locked up.
__________________

浪人 - 殺し屋
"The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only"
http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html
Rusty is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2021, 09:37 AM   #4 (permalink)
A True Z Fanatic
 
JARblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 43
Posts: 36,449
Drives: 11 Z34, 98 E36 M3
Rep Power: 2684440
JARblue has a reputation beyond reputeJARblue has a reputation beyond reputeJARblue has a reputation beyond reputeJARblue has a reputation beyond reputeJARblue has a reputation beyond reputeJARblue has a reputation beyond reputeJARblue has a reputation beyond reputeJARblue has a reputation beyond reputeJARblue has a reputation beyond reputeJARblue has a reputation beyond reputeJARblue has a reputation beyond repute
Default

A helical diff isn't dangerous. Only the driver.
FL 4Motion, AlWakRa, cv129 and 6 others like this.
__________________

2011 370Z 6MT Sport Gun Metallic | ARC | CJM | Ecutek | FI | Fujimura | R2C | SPL | Stillen | TWM | Z1 | ZSpeed |
JARblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2021, 09:56 AM   #5 (permalink)
A True Z Fanatic
 
cv129's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,188
Drives: 09 Nismo, 16 Nismo
Rep Power: 159827
cv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

In terms of diff, I thought the under/oversteer characteristics is controlled by the amount and immediacy of lock during acceleration and deceleration....and not the type of diff....?
AlWakRa and redondoaveb like this.
__________________
Setrab | RE-71 | SPL | JRZ | Nismo | ARK | Whiteline | RacingBrake | CJM Oil Pan | Ti shield
cv129 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2021, 10:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
A True Z Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ga
Posts: 13,467
Drives: 2013 Nismo 370z
Rep Power: 2684390
Spooler has a reputation beyond reputeSpooler has a reputation beyond reputeSpooler has a reputation beyond reputeSpooler has a reputation beyond reputeSpooler has a reputation beyond reputeSpooler has a reputation beyond reputeSpooler has a reputation beyond reputeSpooler has a reputation beyond reputeSpooler has a reputation beyond reputeSpooler has a reputation beyond reputeSpooler has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I got a good laugh out of that video. Somebody doesn't know how to drive. Complete driver error. What was the moron doing pushing that hard on the street anyways. That was just stupid. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
Spooler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2021, 06:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
Premium Member
 
Hotrodz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NW, AZ
Posts: 9,330
Drives: 10 Nissan 370z Nismo
Rep Power: 2684384
Hotrodz has a reputation beyond reputeHotrodz has a reputation beyond reputeHotrodz has a reputation beyond reputeHotrodz has a reputation beyond reputeHotrodz has a reputation beyond reputeHotrodz has a reputation beyond reputeHotrodz has a reputation beyond reputeHotrodz has a reputation beyond reputeHotrodz has a reputation beyond reputeHotrodz has a reputation beyond reputeHotrodz has a reputation beyond repute
Default

First of do a little research and reading about the companies and their products. They both have done and still do diffs for Motorsports at the highest level. I ran a Wavetrac for five years on the street and track without issue and regardless of diff it makes you car way more predictable in over steer and understeer situations than an open diff. That is why you want to upgrade because of the way tq is applied to the rear wheels in the case of our cars.

The idiot in video simply ran out of talent and from the beginning all of us could predict the outcome. What happened to the driver is what is known as lift off over steer. He charges in with too much acceleration and then slams on the brakes causing his car to nose dive. Then as he is turning in he lifts off the brake and the weight on the nose is gone and the front end loses grip and the rear end gains grip...game over snap over steer engaged. There not one thing in that video or the comments you make have to do with a diff causing a car to over steer or under steer. That incident is all about physics and the driver flunked the course.

If you want to get a helical diff I recommend Wavetrac because of its locking characteristics when one wheel leaves the surface or that load being lifted from one tire. That said Quaife is a solid diff as well. Don't let canyon runners or people that don't have a clue about real world applications of products that thousands use in extreme situations as a norm provide you with advice. I am glad you found us here because there are no stupid questions, just stupid people. Don't be that guy!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
__________________
Fast Intentions TT Installed and Tuned by Seb at SpecialtyZ 610whp 560tq:|Fast Intentions 3" TT-TDX|SpecialtyZ/Fast Intentions 72 Row Oil Cooler|SZ 6 Puck Clutch & Flywheel|3GsCustoms|Z1|Wavetrac|Hotchkis|Whiteline |Blitz|Fortune Auto 500|Fujimura|SPL|H&R|TK|TWM|RPM Rollbar|Sparco|Next Level Performance|TrackSpec|AeroFlow Dynamics|Pioneer|

Last edited by Hotrodz; 05-05-2021 at 06:58 PM.
Hotrodz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2021, 09:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
Ronin Samurai - Assassin
 
Rusty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky
Age: 68
Posts: 34,812
Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M
Rep Power: 2684436
Rusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond repute
Talking

Finally got to watch that video. That was just a lack of talent. Pure driver error. The rear started to drift. He lifted. The rear got a bit of traction and wiped it to the other side. With the front wheels pointed right into the guard rail. His bucket of luck ran out, and his bucket of experience is still empty.
__________________

浪人 - 殺し屋
"The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only"
http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html
Rusty is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2021, 06:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
Track Member
 
AlWakRa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Qatar
Posts: 600
Drives: 10 370Z PW 6MT
Rep Power: 13449
AlWakRa has a reputation beyond reputeAlWakRa has a reputation beyond reputeAlWakRa has a reputation beyond reputeAlWakRa has a reputation beyond reputeAlWakRa has a reputation beyond reputeAlWakRa has a reputation beyond reputeAlWakRa has a reputation beyond reputeAlWakRa has a reputation beyond reputeAlWakRa has a reputation beyond reputeAlWakRa has a reputation beyond reputeAlWakRa has a reputation beyond repute
Default

An open diff will be the safest option
Eagle, JARblue, Hotrodz and 1 others like this.
__________________
2010 370Z Touring Sport Pearl White 6MT Powered by:
Fast Intentions - Motordyne - Stillen - OS Giken - CJ Motorsports - Mishimoto - MCA Suspension - SPL - SuperPRO - RJM - Z1 Motorsport - Zspeed - Volk
My Humble Journals
AlWakRa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2021, 08:27 PM   #10 (permalink)
A True Z Fanatic
 
cv129's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,188
Drives: 09 Nismo, 16 Nismo
Rep Power: 159827
cv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond reputecv129 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlWakRa View Post
An open diff will be the safest option
Spooler likes this.
__________________
Setrab | RE-71 | SPL | JRZ | Nismo | ARK | Whiteline | RacingBrake | CJM Oil Pan | Ti shield
cv129 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2021, 09:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
Ronin Samurai - Assassin
 
Rusty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky
Age: 68
Posts: 34,812
Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M
Rep Power: 2684436
Rusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond reputeRusty has a reputation beyond repute
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlWakRa View Post
An open diff will be the safest option
A one wheel peeler.
AlWakRa, JARblue, Hotrodz and 3 others like this.
__________________

浪人 - 殺し屋
"The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only"
http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html
Rusty is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2021, 10:50 AM   #12 (permalink)
A True Z Fanatic
 
DarkJak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 1,390
Drives: 2009 370Z
Rep Power: 13448
DarkJak has a reputation beyond reputeDarkJak has a reputation beyond reputeDarkJak has a reputation beyond reputeDarkJak has a reputation beyond reputeDarkJak has a reputation beyond reputeDarkJak has a reputation beyond reputeDarkJak has a reputation beyond reputeDarkJak has a reputation beyond reputeDarkJak has a reputation beyond reputeDarkJak has a reputation beyond reputeDarkJak has a reputation beyond repute
Default

More like the dangers of driving at the limits on a public road with zero runoff.

Chassis behavior is attributed to suspension setup. While I find a clutch type diff to be more predictable maintaining a slide, a helical is just fine for correcting a slide.-

In the linked potato video, it looks like bad driver input.
Hotrodz likes this.
__________________
@stupidtoycars | My track vids
09 7AT|MCS 2WNR|Topgunz Rotrex|Ecutek (Eugene)|Maxxis RC1|Titan-7 TS-5|OSG LSD|Rear Mount Derale Oil Cooler (WIP)+25 Trans Cooler|Fismo|G-LOC R12/R10|Zeta III L|NLR Wing and Splitter|CJM Pan and Fuel Hat|Radium Surge Tank|AP Racing CP9668
DarkJak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2021, 11:12 AM   #13 (permalink)
Enthusiast Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Alabama
Age: 28
Posts: 420
Drives: 17 370Z 6MT
Rep Power: 3364
Whjaxn17 has a reputation beyond reputeWhjaxn17 has a reputation beyond reputeWhjaxn17 has a reputation beyond reputeWhjaxn17 has a reputation beyond reputeWhjaxn17 has a reputation beyond reputeWhjaxn17 has a reputation beyond reputeWhjaxn17 has a reputation beyond reputeWhjaxn17 has a reputation beyond reputeWhjaxn17 has a reputation beyond reputeWhjaxn17 has a reputation beyond reputeWhjaxn17 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Danger of *being a smoothbrain
Hotrodz likes this.
__________________
377whp/299wtq NA
704whp/519wtq, SOHO stage 2.5
IG: pearlywhite.z

Last edited by Whjaxn17; 05-25-2021 at 11:15 AM.
Whjaxn17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Danger of helical diff on RWD cars Zilver Engine & Drivetrain 0 05-04-2021 11:49 PM
[FOR SALE] NEW! Quaife Diff QDF11L, Bearings, bushing, bolts, oil, finned diff cover... kdrshocker Parts for sale (Private Classifieds) 14 11-01-2018 11:07 PM
[FOR SALE] Open Diff, Quaife and 4.08 Taylortoons Parts for sale (Private Classifieds) 12 11-07-2015 08:18 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2