DIY: Oil Cooler (scratch built install, lottsa pics).....>.

Mike · 03-04-2010, 07:25 PM

I will have this complete Modshack cooler setup for sale, with the newly custom made hoses real soon, as I am getting the new Stillen one for their front bumper if anyone is interested. I'm thinking 300 shipped. The new hoses were 110 by themselves.

m4a1mustang · 03-04-2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

I will have this complete Modshack cooler setup for sale, with the newly custom made hoses real soon, as I am getting the new Stillen one for their front bumper if anyone is interested. I'm thinking 300 shipped. The new hoses were 110 by themselves.

What size is the cooler? I might be interested...

Mike · 03-04-2010, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

What size is the cooler? I might be interested...

TRU-L7B TRU-Cool 24 Row Racing Oil Cooler $44.95 (11" x 5.75" x 1.5")

It worked great here all of last late summer and fall at some hot track days.

cab83_750 · 03-04-2010, 08:13 PM

Is it possible that the hoses while filled with oil got so heavy that after many miles of up-and-down movement, they separated? I am asking as in looking at the pics, they run horizontal but there is no mention of any bracing/brackets to hold the weight?

Modshack · 03-05-2010, 08:53 AM

Hose Blow-off analysis

What we know:

1) Both Socketless and Braided hoses have separated in 3 reported instances.
Not sure if Travis's was hose related, so that could be 4

2) Neither of those hose types and attachment styles have regularly reported failure rates.

3) Both hose/end styles are rated well above the expected temps and pressures

What we don't know:

1) install specifics/variables.

One of the comments from the Jack above stuck in my mind: The hose needs significant slack.. Both Cab and Mike report they had slack in their installs. I have no reason to doubt that. One thing not taken into consideration is the Torquing of the motor on it's mounts. Under acceleration and compression braking, the motor could be moving around the axis of the mounts by as much as an inch. Certainly in Mike's case, under track conditions, this could be even more. As the motor rocks on it's mounts, alternate stretch and compression forces are applied to the fitting. I suspect enough of these cycles, with a tad too little slack, and the barbs wore through the inner hose liner. At that point the structural integrity of the hose was gone and it blew off. But I had enough slack you say...Alternate theory #2: The hose, as laid out, passes under the sway bar. Lottsa clearance when up on a lift, not so much when on the ground. Compound that with a lowered car (CAB, not sure of your suspension) and you may have the sway bar working and flexing on the hose close to the fitting. This may potentially cause a similar failure by compromising the inner liner. Be sure the hoses are routed to cross under the swaybar close to the pivot point to minimize this. I'll put some cautions up on page one. I'd also recommend, on new builds, extending the hose lengths by 1" as Mike did after his incident. (My dimensions quoted BTW are cut end to cut end and DO NOT include the fitting.). It is always best to actually make up the hose lengths by fitting to the particular install before final socketless (or other) end assembly. A little too short and you run the risk of hose failure because of the above.

jborsos · 03-05-2010, 10:11 AM

Modshack,

Excellent summary. I agree with you, engine torquing under track day or extreme driving events could be as much as 4-5 inches. Couple this with hose contraction of up to 10% reinforces how critical the routing and length of a plumbing be calculated.

Jack
RPW

Modshack · 03-05-2010, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jborsos

Modshack,

Excellent summary. I agree with you, engine torquing under track day or extreme driving events could be as much as 4-5 inches. Couple this with hose contraction of up to 10% reinforces how critical the routing and length of a plumbing be calculated.

Jack
RPW

Thanks for your participation Jack. I've done 3 cooler installs over the years using parts from your Company, and never had an issue with any of them. I suspect the conclusion above is probably the culprit here..

Steve

Billy830 · 03-06-2010, 11:39 AM

I think we are getting a little crazy on the oil cooler hose bit. As I said in a previous post I spent 23 years in Jet Enginge Test Research and Development. We used aeroquip hoses that were CRIPMED as we had our own shop with the tools to do so. We made sure that hoses were not too long and or too short. We used high temp anti chaffing clamps to route the hoses. Any where that we thought chaffing was a possibliity we added that protection.
My position on this is do right the first time, don't try to reengineer a simple process. You can order the stainless steel crimped hoses with the cooler or have hoses made at say, Napa or at any hydraulic shop that makes hoses in your area to the proper length. The torqueing of the engine and its result on the hoses to me is a mute point if they are clamped and routed properly. Spend a couple of more bucks and time and you will not have to worry if you are going to dump your oil or not.

The pilot of a Jet fighter dose not have time to worry about things like that. Yes the jet engine does at times have premature failures and their RPMS are 50-60K not 8K.

travisjb · 03-06-2010, 12:42 PM

modshack, good analysis, as always... +rep

Modshack · 03-07-2010, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy830

The torqueing of the engine and its result on the hoses to me is a mute point if they are clamped and routed properly. .

I think that was my point. The fact that both socketless rubber AND socketed stainless lines have come off would point to installation issues rather than random hardware failure.

TipsZ · 03-08-2010, 08:30 AM

I've got a question for you experienced modders out there. How much should I torque down the AN fittings for those lines that are supplied from the GTM kit? I am currently getting a little seepage from the edge of where the fittings meet the steel braided line. Is this something to be concerned about? When I get her back up on stands, I will take some pics and post (though that probably will not happen until at the earliest the evening of Tuesday - 9 March).

vipor · 03-08-2010, 08:37 AM

I think I went about a 1/2 turn after snug or something. Don't remember exactly... Don't have any seepage though lol.

Modshack · 03-08-2010, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TipsZ

How much should I torque down the AN fittings for those lines that are supplied from the GTM kit? I am currently getting a little seepage from the edge of where the fittings meet the steel braided line. Is this something to be concerned about? When I get her back up on stands, I will take some pics and post (though that probably will not happen until at the earliest the evening of Tuesday - 9 March).

AN fittings do not take a lot of torque to seal completely The design of the fitting cone is precise and should never leak. I'm a bit suspect of the GTM lines. though. One (Tardcore) has bown apart already. They should not leak at the braid. This may indicate they were not assembled correctly. You can take them apart and check but it's awkward to do on the car. Stainless lines have a very high pressure rating normally but if not fully seated in the sockets this could be reduced significantly and potentially leak..

Billy830 · 03-08-2010, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

AN fittings do not take a lot of torque to seal completely The design of the fitting cone is precise and should never leak. I'm a bit suspect of the GTM lines. though. One (Tardcore) has bown apart already. They should not leak at the braid. This may indicate they were not assembled correctly. You can take them apart and check but it's awkward to do on the car. Stainless lines have a very high pressure rating normally but if not fully seated in the sockets this could be reduced significantly and potentially leak..

I would not call them precise fittings, knicks or any imperfections can affect the seal, mostly under high pressure conditions, for which you would use stainless fittings. Aluminium is not considered high pressure and there for should be inspected for knicks or any imperfections(we drop things and aluminum is soft). Voishan seals are made for AN fittings and will compress and make a perfect seal but these are generally used for high pressure applications but will work for low pressure apps as well.
We are only working with a low presure system.
The leaking or weeping at the hose and braid says to me that the hose is not properly installed on the fitting (cut straight) piece of braid has overlapped the hose end or has a bend to close to the fitting that it has distorted the shape of the hose on the fitting and for me I think that that the latter is the main problem with hoses popping off. Aluminum fittings can be over torqued and strip the threads unlike stainless. Snug up the fitting and take 1/4 final turn.
On pipe threads always use teflon tape. Start 1/16-1/8" back from end start to wrap counter clockwise and only take 2 wraps, don't over do it. Becarefull that no tape over laps the end of the fitting as this will get cut off and get into the system. If you remove a pipe fitting with teflon tape on it use a soft wire brush (tape will become clear after use and you may not notice it )to remove excess teflon tape, do not just tape over the fitting. Inspect the other fitting end for left over teflon and remove any that has been left behind if not this stuff will make its way into the system when you reinstall the fittings.

Check your routing and clamping make sure that the bends are not severe.

TipsZ · 03-08-2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy830

I would not call them precise fittings, knicks or any imperfections can affect the seal, mostly under high pressure conditions, for which you would use stainless fittings. Aluminium is not considered high pressure and there for should be inspected for knicks or any imperfections(we drop things and aluminum is soft)..... The leaking or weeping at the hose and braid says to me that the hose is not properly installed on the fitting (cut straight) piece of braid has overlapped the hose end or has a bend to close to the fitting that it has distorted the shape of the hose on the fitting and for me I think that that the latter is the main problem with hoses popping off. Aluminum fittings can be over torqued and strip the threads unlike stainless. Snug up the fitting and take 1/4 final turn....Check your routing and clamping make sure that the bends are not severe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

AN fittings do not take a lot of torque to seal completely The design of the fitting cone is precise and should never leak. I'm a bit suspect of the GTM lines. though. One (Tardcore) has bown apart already. They should not leak at the braid. This may indicate they were not assembled correctly. You can take them apart and check but it's awkward to do on the car. Stainless lines have a very high pressure rating normally but if not fully seated in the sockets this could be reduced significantly and potentially leak..

Thank you both for your experience with this type of issue. I plan to get some pictures up in the next few days to show you guys what I am talking about. I too am worried as I purchased the GTM kit from Tardcore. However, the vendor replaced the suspect hose (with a much too long one at that). I need to confirm with Tardcore that he did not alter the lines, and that they were directly from the vendor .. that may give me a bit more piece of mind.

03-04-2010, 07:25 PM	#166 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2185	I will have this complete Modshack cooler setup for sale, with the newly custom made hoses real soon, as I am getting the new Stillen one for their front bumper if anyone is interested. I'm thinking 300 shipped. The new hoses were 110 by themselves. __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

03-05-2010, 08:53 AM	#170 (permalink)
Modshack A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Greenville NC Posts: 2,883 Drives: 370Z Sport Rep Power: 976	Hose Blow-off analysis What we know: 1) Both Socketless and Braided hoses have separated in 3 reported instances. Not sure if Travis's was hose related, so that could be 4 2) Neither of those hose types and attachment styles have regularly reported failure rates. 3) Both hose/end styles are rated well above the expected temps and pressures What we don't know: 1) install specifics/variables. One of the comments from the Jack above stuck in my mind: The hose needs significant slack.. Both Cab and Mike report they had slack in their installs. I have no reason to doubt that. One thing not taken into consideration is the Torquing of the motor on it's mounts. Under acceleration and compression braking, the motor could be moving around the axis of the mounts by as much as an inch. Certainly in Mike's case, under track conditions, this could be even more. As the motor rocks on it's mounts, alternate stretch and compression forces are applied to the fitting. I suspect enough of these cycles, with a tad too little slack, and the barbs wore through the inner hose liner. At that point the structural integrity of the hose was gone and it blew off. But I had enough slack you say...Alternate theory #2: The hose, as laid out, passes under the sway bar. Lottsa clearance when up on a lift, not so much when on the ground. Compound that with a lowered car (CAB, not sure of your suspension) and you may have the sway bar working and flexing on the hose close to the fitting. This may potentially cause a similar failure by compromising the inner liner. Be sure the hoses are routed to cross under the swaybar close to the pivot point to minimize this. I'll put some cautions up on page one. I'd also recommend, on new builds, extending the hose lengths by 1" as Mike did after his incident. (My dimensions quoted BTW are cut end to cut end and DO NOT include the fitting.). It is always best to actually make up the hose lengths by fitting to the particular install before final socketless (or other) end assembly. A little too short and you run the risk of hose failure because of the above. __________________ Steal my car! (SOLD)...Now Porsche Cayman S Oil Cooler DIY: Here! Last edited by Modshack; 03-05-2010 at 10:49 AM.

03-06-2010, 11:39 AM	#173 (permalink)
Billy830 Base Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Port Saint Lucie Fl. Age: 77 Posts: 31 Drives: 370Z Mag Black 6sp m Rep Power: 15	Oil cooler installs I think we are getting a little crazy on the oil cooler hose bit. As I said in a previous post I spent 23 years in Jet Enginge Test Research and Development. We used aeroquip hoses that were CRIPMED as we had our own shop with the tools to do so. We made sure that hoses were not too long and or too short. We used high temp anti chaffing clamps to route the hoses. Any where that we thought chaffing was a possibliity we added that protection. My position on this is do right the first time, don't try to reengineer a simple process. You can order the stainless steel crimped hoses with the cooler or have hoses made at say, Napa or at any hydraulic shop that makes hoses in your area to the proper length. The torqueing of the engine and its result on the hoses to me is a mute point if they are clamped and routed properly. Spend a couple of more bucks and time and you will not have to worry if you are going to dump your oil or not. The pilot of a Jet fighter dose not have time to worry about things like that. Yes the jet engine does at times have premature failures and their RPMS are 50-60K not 8K.

03-06-2010, 12:42 PM	#174 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 188	modshack, good analysis, as always... +rep __________________ 2009 370Z #104 For Sale

03-08-2010, 08:30 AM	#176 (permalink)
TipsZ Track Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Lithia, FL Age: 50 Posts: 552 Drives: 09 Nissan 370z CS M6 Rep Power: 186	I've got a question for you experienced modders out there. How much should I torque down the AN fittings for those lines that are supplied from the GTM kit? I am currently getting a little seepage from the edge of where the fittings meet the steel braided line. Is this something to be concerned about? When I get her back up on stands, I will take some pics and post (though that probably will not happen until at the earliest the evening of Tuesday - 9 March). __________________ Dynojet 285 HP/245 TQ (pre CBE)// Agency Power CBE // GTM Test Pipes // JWT Pop Chargers // B&M Short Shifter // Eibach Springs // Powder-coated Akebono's // Powder-coated Strut Bar // Black Chromed 19" Rays // // Redline Designs Graphics TipsZ journal

03-04-2010, 08:13 PM	#169 (permalink)
cab83_750 Track Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: CA Posts: 887 Drives: 09 NISSAN 370Z Rep Power: 417	Is it possible that the hoses while filled with oil got so heavy that after many miles of up-and-down movement, they separated? I am asking as in looking at the pics, they run horizontal but there is no mention of any bracing/brackets to hold the weight?

03-05-2010, 10:11 AM	#171 (permalink)
jborsos Base Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Frankin, IN Posts: 9 Drives: 2011 VW Jetta Rep Power: 15	Modshack, Excellent summary. I agree with you, engine torquing under track day or extreme driving events could be as much as 4-5 inches. Couple this with hose contraction of up to 10% reinforces how critical the routing and length of a plumbing be calculated. Jack RPW

03-08-2010, 08:37 AM	#177 (permalink)
vipor A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Euless, TX [ DFW ] Age: 41 Posts: 13,531 Drives: Nismo 09-0183 QAB Rep Power: 48	I think I went about a 1/2 turn after snug or something. Don't remember exactly... Don't have any seepage though lol. __________________ 2009 NISMO # 0193 \| QAB \| Albums! \| 05.04.10 (Dynojet) 291.94hp/248.28tq Oil Cooler (DIY) \| Custom Headlights \| GTSPEC Braces \| F.I. Long Tube Headers

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