Ice mode solution?

prandelia · 08-25-2022, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomer_110

Lost a front splitter on my autox car earlier this year for exactly this reason. Came in hard on a tight 180, hit a small bump and immediate lockup. Ended up in the uneven dirt off the pavement where the splitter dug in and broke into pieces. I just don't understand why an abs system that behaves this way makes any sense.

Out of curiousity, which MK60 units are people using? From what I found the version of the unit you want (the programmable one), is nearly impossible to get anywhere. Is there a reliable source to get them from still?

Yeah, it's so ridiculous. Ice mode is one thing, I can still get that on my 991.2 GT3 for christ's sake, but this is a whole different level of stupid programming. My FRS race car uses OE ABS, and it's literally the best OE ABS I've ever used on track, better than BMW, Porsche, etc. So the whole "it's an affordable" sports car is an invalid excuse. I wonder if the 400Z has a better OE system that we can use. It's literally the exact same chassis and underpinnings. Perhaps they finally upgraded it and it's possible to use in our cars.

Contact these guys, they sell a Continental/Teves motorsport version of the MK60 for $3375 that comes with a full harness and everything. Turn-key. If my car wasn't such a nice, low mileage street car, I'd do it in an instant.

https://www.rhtmotorsport.com/

SeeThruHead · 09-04-2022, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prandelia

Yeah, it's so ridiculous. Ice mode is one thing, I can still get that on my 991.2 GT3 for christ's sake, but this is a whole different level of stupid programming. My FRS race car uses OE ABS, and it's literally the best OE ABS I've ever used on track, better than BMW, Porsche, etc. So the whole "it's an affordable" sports car is an invalid excuse. I wonder if the 400Z has a better OE system that we can use. It's literally the exact same chassis and underpinnings. Perhaps they finally upgraded it and it's possible to use in our cars.

Contact these guys, they sell a Continental/Teves motorsport version of the MK60 for $3375 that comes with a full harness and everything. Turn-key. If my car wasn't such a nice, low mileage street car, I'd do it in an instant.

https://www.rhtmotorsport.com/

I would not hold out any hope of the electronic systems in the 2023 Z being better for track driving.

street2soul · 09-04-2022, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomer_110

Lost a front splitter on my autox car earlier this year for exactly this reason. Came in hard on a tight 180, hit a small bump and immediate lockup. Ended up in the uneven dirt off the pavement where the splitter dug in and broke into pieces. I just don't understand why an abs system that behaves this way makes any sense.

Out of curiousity, which MK60 units are people using? From what I found the version of the unit you want (the programmable one), is nearly impossible to get anywhere. Is there a reliable source to get them from still?

Douglas Wardell @ Racing Harness Technology

Girald · 09-07-2022, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoX Z

I'm getting pretty sick of the ice mode on my car and have tried to try and fix it. Because of the SCCA rules Im pretty much limited to changing pads and fluid. Has anyone figured out a way to at least improve the braking performance with these restrictions?

Also FYI this is a daily street driven car and will only be used for autox. Please keep this in mind and don't bother recommending track-oriented solutions.

The best solution i can think of lies in brake management and added rear downforce to fight rear lockups... downforce is definitely your friend...

There are some brake "tuning" solutions to limit the amount of brake force to the rear( like a manifold or inline system where you can manually dial back the brake pressure. you can also meter it with different brake pad types, i.e. carbotech 8s in the front and something much less grippy but race durable in the rear.

The other, more obvious solution is to manage brake inputs to limit the effect.

On open track, I had Carbotech 10s and 8s. I found that i had some rear lock ups.. after a few laps the ice mode decided to join the party and sent me off the track a few times.

backing off my brake inputs and "feeling for" what i could get away with (aggressive braking-wise) helped me stay in a pocket of functionality.

But, i noticed more rear bias than necessary on the pads.

my solution was foot to pedal managing and flowing through the courses a bit more efficiently made it better, but considered a bias control manifold...

I since turbo'ed the car and this more of a grenade at that level of abuse. im considering buying another Z for a stripped down built na track build. but thats down the track.. that ice garbage will just get eliminated with a haltech ecu/

justin_boy · 11-21-2022, 12:49 AM

idk if anyone said in this thread but you can retrofit a mk60 from the e46 m3 and ive heard it'll fix that solution. also i used to go into ice mode alot evever since i started using slicks, ive found that building pressure in the pedal before smashing it down helps.

Evildky · 11-23-2022, 04:08 PM

Heat isn't the issue for me. I get ice mode more at autocross than at the track, and i can replicate it on the street, going from 100% throttle to 100% brake immediately and it goes ice mode.

Girald · 11-28-2022, 12:01 AM

ABS is the parent software governing ice mode..

its a traction and wheel slip issue... it has nothing to do with the mechanical brake system itself. The car software is basically tracking wheel slip via sensors and " thinks" you are on ice. Its attempting to limit brake input in order to help you gain control in an ice situation (because we all love driving our sports cars in the ice, apparently.)

You can eliminate Ice mode by pulling the ABS.. but you default brake bias to 50/50 and... you no longer have abs.

You are fighting the ECU... there are many different forms of mitigation, but 100% mitigation, is to toss the oem ecu, and add an aftermarket stand-alone system

austins z · 12-19-2022, 09:27 AM

What's up guys, been awhile haha. I don't really get on here much, just check in from time to time. If you guys want the fix to this problem hit me up on IG: @austinhertel . I have ripped out the factory abs stuff and installed the MK60 system awhile back.

To be clear here though, Ice mode is when you go to brake and your pedal is rock solid and the car is not stopping. Ice mode is not locking up the front or rear wheels and skidding across the pavement. If you are locking up wheels this needs to be fixed first, usually a mismatch in pad combo or driving style. Th mk60 is not going to be as good as the 7K bosch system mentioned but for around $2k-$3k the mk60 will at least be predictable and controllable.

Again, I have a whole write up and pdf document I can send you on what is needed, cost, how to install, wiring diagram and everything, just hit me up on IG: @austinhertel . I should be able to shoot you in the right direction if you are serious about it, or have any other track related Z questions. I've been in the game for a good while now haha.

prandelia · 03-13-2023, 01:03 PM

Well, even with a proper pad combo (more front biased), AP Racing BBK (front) and good braking technique, proper tire sizes, and only 200TW tires, you simply cannot drive aggressively without wheels locking up on a stiff suspension/track oriented setup. I flat spotted a set of front tires again this weekend at NCM. The guys at Counterspace told me the car 100% needs to have less rear brake pad bias, via less aggressive pad, for track use. So that's what I've current done.

The system def. works better since the AP front kit install, but certain brake zones can exacerbate the issue.

The ABS is just outright dangerous for anybody that is a good driver and really wants to push this car. I make sure to give myself tons of room to the cars in front of me as a further precaution. Still waiting on another forum member to come through with their "black box" fix to allow OE wheels speed sensors and full dash electronics to work. For a street/DE car, it's just not feasible to delete the tach or speedo functions, and have to add a full second set of sensors. No reason this can't be fixed electronically.

danegrey · 03-13-2023, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prandelia

The ABS is just outright dangerous for anybody that is a good driver and really wants to push this car. I make sure to give myself tons of room to the cars in front of me as a further precaution.

This is just a thought, I am working with a sim instructor, he also helps me with my tracking. He is currently working with me to make sure I do not engage ABS in the sim. Now I start tracking in a month and I am going to work on that idea. Its been a bit of adjustment in sim racing, but I will find out.

Again, its just a thought, maybe a different approach...

my 2 cents...

prandelia · 03-14-2023, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danegrey

This is just a thought, I am working with a sim instructor, he also helps me with my tracking. He is currently working with me to make sure I do not engage ABS in the sim. Now I start tracking in a month and I am going to work on that idea. Its been a bit of adjustment in sim racing, but I will find out.

Again, its just a thought, maybe a different approach...

my 2 cents...

That's good in theory, but until you actually pilot this car, and the ABS program at speed, you will learn long term you will never be perfect enough to stay within the programming limits of the car, if you get fast enough, or your setup is aggressive.

I've got like 6 track/race cars, and this is by far the worst ABS system I've ever used. I don't have a problem with the ABS, I have a problem with the limit programming it has that locks wheels up in certain situtations. That is something that no decent sports car I've ever driven does.

I make sure my tire diameters and brake compounds are appropriate for all my other cars to avoid ice mode and overly intrusive abs, but this lockup issue is totally unacceptable. Asking people to go to a track and drive fast, and tell them to "learn to brake around this situation" is not a solution. This is why so many cars end up crashed, and why even more probably avoid driving this car on track altogether.

danegrey · 03-14-2023, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prandelia

That's good in theory, but until you actually pilot this car, and the ABS program at speed, you will learn long term you will never be perfect enough to stay within the programming limits of the car, if you get fast enough, or your setup is aggressive.

I've got like 6 track/race cars, and this is by far the worst ABS system I've ever used. I don't have a problem with the ABS, I have a problem with the limit programming it has that locks wheels up in certain situtations. That is something that no decent sports car I've ever driven does.

I make sure my tire diameters and brake compounds are appropriate for all my other cars to avoid ice mode and overly intrusive abs, but this lockup issue is totally unacceptable. Asking people to go to a track and drive fast, and tell them to "learn to brake around this situation" is not a solution. This is why so many cars end up crashed, and why even more probably avoid driving this car on track altogether.

Just an FYI, I do track my Z, have about 20-25 events on it. Sounds as if you have done a lot more tracking in different cars over the years. That is great to hear. I still learning and playing on this stuff The other problem I have - no butt feel and it takes me time to understand what I am being told.

So anything you say, I will review and think on it. Thanks for the input.

So where to you track at, just wondering, maybe we can meet up at an event.

Spooler · 03-14-2023, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prandelia

Well, even with a proper pad combo (more front biased), AP Racing BBK (front) and good braking technique, proper tire sizes, and only 200TW tires, you simply cannot drive aggressively without wheels locking up on a stiff suspension/track oriented setup. I flat spotted a set of front tires again this weekend at NCM. The guys at Counterspace told me the car 100% needs to have less rear brake pad bias, via less aggressive pad, for track use. So that's what I've current done.

The system def. works better since the AP front kit install, but certain brake zones can exacerbate the issue.

The ABS is just outright dangerous for anybody that is a good driver and really wants to push this car. I make sure to give myself tons of room to the cars in front of me as a further precaution. Still waiting on another forum member to come through with their "black box" fix to allow OE wheels speed sensors and full dash electronics to work. For a street/DE car, it's just not feasible to delete the tach or speedo functions, and have to add a full second set of sensors. No reason this can't be fixed electronically.

It is amazing nobody has written new software for the stock ABS system. How did your new front brakes work for you?

Spooler · 03-14-2023, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prandelia

Well, even with a proper pad combo (more front biased), AP Racing BBK (front) and good braking technique, proper tire sizes, and only 200TW tires, you simply cannot drive aggressively without wheels locking up on a stiff suspension/track oriented setup. I flat spotted a set of front tires again this weekend at NCM. The guys at Counterspace told me the car 100% needs to have less rear brake pad bias, via less aggressive pad, for track use. So that's what I've current done.

The system def. works better since the AP front kit install, but certain brake zones can exacerbate the issue.

The ABS is just outright dangerous for anybody that is a good driver and really wants to push this car. I make sure to give myself tons of room to the cars in front of me as a further precaution. Still waiting on another forum member to come through with their "black box" fix to allow OE wheels speed sensors and full dash electronics to work. For a street/DE car, it's just not feasible to delete the tach or speedo functions, and have to add a full second set of sensors. No reason this can't be fixed electronically.

Forgot to ask. What pads are you using on the front and rear? My car has been in the shop since last year. It's going back together now.

prandelia · 03-14-2023, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooler

Forgot to ask. What pads are you using on the front and rear? My car has been in the shop since last year. It's going back together now.

Originally ran CSG spec C2 front, CE1 rears with stock front brake setup.
Now with AP kit up front, running DS1.11 up front, and CSG Spec CE1 rears, so the front bias still remains as C2 and DS1.11 are virtually the same.

11-21-2022, 12:49 AM	#5 (permalink)
justin_boy Track Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: woodland hills Posts: 600 Drives: z34 Rep Power: 8369	idk if anyone said in this thread but you can retrofit a mk60 from the e46 m3 and ive heard it'll fix that solution. also i used to go into ice mode alot evever since i started using slicks, ive found that building pressure in the pedal before smashing it down helps. Elmo370z likes this.

11-28-2022, 12:01 AM	#7 (permalink)
Girald Base Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Denver Posts: 136 Drives: 15' 370z SpTech 6MT Rep Power: 3364	ABS is the parent software governing ice mode.. its a traction and wheel slip issue... it has nothing to do with the mechanical brake system itself. The car software is basically tracking wheel slip via sensors and " thinks" you are on ice. Its attempting to limit brake input in order to help you gain control in an ice situation (because we all love driving our sports cars in the ice, apparently.) You can eliminate Ice mode by pulling the ABS.. but you default brake bias to 50/50 and... you no longer have abs. You are fighting the ECU... there are many different forms of mitigation, but 100% mitigation, is to toss the oem ecu, and add an aftermarket stand-alone system __________________ AAM tt'ed // Soon: Moving back to the East Coast

12-19-2022, 09:27 AM	#8 (permalink)
austins z Base Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: indiana Posts: 76 Drives: @austinhertel on IG Rep Power: 75	What's up guys, been awhile haha. I don't really get on here much, just check in from time to time. If you guys want the fix to this problem hit me up on IG: @austinhertel . I have ripped out the factory abs stuff and installed the MK60 system awhile back. To be clear here though, Ice mode is when you go to brake and your pedal is rock solid and the car is not stopping. Ice mode is not locking up the front or rear wheels and skidding across the pavement. If you are locking up wheels this needs to be fixed first, usually a mismatch in pad combo or driving style. Th mk60 is not going to be as good as the 7K bosch system mentioned but for around $2k-$3k the mk60 will at least be predictable and controllable. Again, I have a whole write up and pdf document I can send you on what is needed, cost, how to install, wiring diagram and everything, just hit me up on IG: @austinhertel . I should be able to shoot you in the right direction if you are serious about it, or have any other track related Z questions. I've been in the game for a good while now haha. sx moneypit, Averying and Zerberus like this.

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11-23-2022, 04:08 PM	#6 (permalink)
Evildky Base Member Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 89 Drives: 13 Nismo STU/T3 Rep Power: 10188	Heat isn't the issue for me. I get ice mode more at autocross than at the track, and i can replicate it on the street, going from 100% throttle to 100% brake immediately and it goes ice mode.