Ice mode solution?

justin_boy · 11-21-2022, 12:49 AM

idk if anyone said in this thread but you can retrofit a mk60 from the e46 m3 and ive heard it'll fix that solution. also i used to go into ice mode alot evever since i started using slicks, ive found that building pressure in the pedal before smashing it down helps.

Averying · 11-22-2022, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KapitalZ

After being sent off the track many times by ice mode and, working on the theory that it was caused by temperature and fade disparity between front and rear brakes, I eliminated the issue with the following mods:

Replaced the hose supplied with Stillen front brake cooling kit with longer, better quality hose that gives a cleaner, straighter path to the hose outlets and delivers more cold air onto the rotors;
Replaced DBA T3 4000 with DBA T3 5000 front rotors to draw cold air from Stllen ducts through the 'kangaroo paw' designed internal rotor ventilation;
Installed Rays Gram Lights 57CR 5-spoked wheels that provide an open wheel face to draw air out of rotors (no real evidence to back this up and really I just wanted an excuse to buy them);
Installed Winmax W5 pads front and rear that resist fade up to 750c;
Installed Penrite 10 Tenths Racing Brake Fluid 600 (because it's Australian and I drive on Australian race tracks);
And I am about to install Hard Brakes 1.0mm Titanium Brake Heat Shield Shims just for good measure, but mainly to prolong brake component and fluid life, and because I don't want to wait another 3 years for them to be back in stock.

No more ice mode.

I also stopped the ABLS pitching me into walls at turn exits with a yaw sensor bypass switch, so now I've completely run out excuses for randomly leaving the track and blaming it on the car

Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk

That’s interesting that you’ve eliminated ice mode while having matched front and rear pads. Seems like most have a staggered pad to reduce rear lockup and shift the braking power towards the front.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Elmo370z · 11-22-2022, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Averying

That’s interesting that you’ve eliminated ice mode while having matched front and rear pads. Seems like most have a staggered pad to reduce rear lockup and shift the braking power towards the front.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are correct. Since most of the braking is done on the fronts. I run SRF without brake ducts. Run the yaw delete and haven’t had any issues with ice mode

Evildky · 11-23-2022, 04:08 PM

Heat isn't the issue for me. I get ice mode more at autocross than at the track, and i can replicate it on the street, going from 100% throttle to 100% brake immediately and it goes ice mode.

Girald · 11-28-2022, 12:01 AM

ABS is the parent software governing ice mode..

its a traction and wheel slip issue... it has nothing to do with the mechanical brake system itself. The car software is basically tracking wheel slip via sensors and " thinks" you are on ice. Its attempting to limit brake input in order to help you gain control in an ice situation (because we all love driving our sports cars in the ice, apparently.)

You can eliminate Ice mode by pulling the ABS.. but you default brake bias to 50/50 and... you no longer have abs.

You are fighting the ECU... there are many different forms of mitigation, but 100% mitigation, is to toss the oem ecu, and add an aftermarket stand-alone system

austins z · 12-19-2022, 09:27 AM

What's up guys, been awhile haha. I don't really get on here much, just check in from time to time. If you guys want the fix to this problem hit me up on IG: @austinhertel . I have ripped out the factory abs stuff and installed the MK60 system awhile back.

To be clear here though, Ice mode is when you go to brake and your pedal is rock solid and the car is not stopping. Ice mode is not locking up the front or rear wheels and skidding across the pavement. If you are locking up wheels this needs to be fixed first, usually a mismatch in pad combo or driving style. Th mk60 is not going to be as good as the 7K bosch system mentioned but for around $2k-$3k the mk60 will at least be predictable and controllable.

Again, I have a whole write up and pdf document I can send you on what is needed, cost, how to install, wiring diagram and everything, just hit me up on IG: @austinhertel . I should be able to shoot you in the right direction if you are serious about it, or have any other track related Z questions. I've been in the game for a good while now haha.

prandelia · 03-13-2023, 01:03 PM

Well, even with a proper pad combo (more front biased), AP Racing BBK (front) and good braking technique, proper tire sizes, and only 200TW tires, you simply cannot drive aggressively without wheels locking up on a stiff suspension/track oriented setup. I flat spotted a set of front tires again this weekend at NCM. The guys at Counterspace told me the car 100% needs to have less rear brake pad bias, via less aggressive pad, for track use. So that's what I've current done.

The system def. works better since the AP front kit install, but certain brake zones can exacerbate the issue.

The ABS is just outright dangerous for anybody that is a good driver and really wants to push this car. I make sure to give myself tons of room to the cars in front of me as a further precaution. Still waiting on another forum member to come through with their "black box" fix to allow OE wheels speed sensors and full dash electronics to work. For a street/DE car, it's just not feasible to delete the tach or speedo functions, and have to add a full second set of sensors. No reason this can't be fixed electronically.

danegrey · 03-13-2023, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prandelia

The ABS is just outright dangerous for anybody that is a good driver and really wants to push this car. I make sure to give myself tons of room to the cars in front of me as a further precaution.

This is just a thought, I am working with a sim instructor, he also helps me with my tracking. He is currently working with me to make sure I do not engage ABS in the sim. Now I start tracking in a month and I am going to work on that idea. Its been a bit of adjustment in sim racing, but I will find out.

Again, its just a thought, maybe a different approach...

my 2 cents...

prandelia · 03-14-2023, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danegrey

This is just a thought, I am working with a sim instructor, he also helps me with my tracking. He is currently working with me to make sure I do not engage ABS in the sim. Now I start tracking in a month and I am going to work on that idea. Its been a bit of adjustment in sim racing, but I will find out.

Again, its just a thought, maybe a different approach...

my 2 cents...

That's good in theory, but until you actually pilot this car, and the ABS program at speed, you will learn long term you will never be perfect enough to stay within the programming limits of the car, if you get fast enough, or your setup is aggressive.

I've got like 6 track/race cars, and this is by far the worst ABS system I've ever used. I don't have a problem with the ABS, I have a problem with the limit programming it has that locks wheels up in certain situtations. That is something that no decent sports car I've ever driven does.

I make sure my tire diameters and brake compounds are appropriate for all my other cars to avoid ice mode and overly intrusive abs, but this lockup issue is totally unacceptable. Asking people to go to a track and drive fast, and tell them to "learn to brake around this situation" is not a solution. This is why so many cars end up crashed, and why even more probably avoid driving this car on track altogether.

danegrey · 03-14-2023, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prandelia

That's good in theory, but until you actually pilot this car, and the ABS program at speed, you will learn long term you will never be perfect enough to stay within the programming limits of the car, if you get fast enough, or your setup is aggressive.

I've got like 6 track/race cars, and this is by far the worst ABS system I've ever used. I don't have a problem with the ABS, I have a problem with the limit programming it has that locks wheels up in certain situtations. That is something that no decent sports car I've ever driven does.

I make sure my tire diameters and brake compounds are appropriate for all my other cars to avoid ice mode and overly intrusive abs, but this lockup issue is totally unacceptable. Asking people to go to a track and drive fast, and tell them to "learn to brake around this situation" is not a solution. This is why so many cars end up crashed, and why even more probably avoid driving this car on track altogether.

Just an FYI, I do track my Z, have about 20-25 events on it. Sounds as if you have done a lot more tracking in different cars over the years. That is great to hear. I still learning and playing on this stuff The other problem I have - no butt feel and it takes me time to understand what I am being told.

So anything you say, I will review and think on it. Thanks for the input.

So where to you track at, just wondering, maybe we can meet up at an event.

Spooler · 03-14-2023, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prandelia

Well, even with a proper pad combo (more front biased), AP Racing BBK (front) and good braking technique, proper tire sizes, and only 200TW tires, you simply cannot drive aggressively without wheels locking up on a stiff suspension/track oriented setup. I flat spotted a set of front tires again this weekend at NCM. The guys at Counterspace told me the car 100% needs to have less rear brake pad bias, via less aggressive pad, for track use. So that's what I've current done.

The system def. works better since the AP front kit install, but certain brake zones can exacerbate the issue.

The ABS is just outright dangerous for anybody that is a good driver and really wants to push this car. I make sure to give myself tons of room to the cars in front of me as a further precaution. Still waiting on another forum member to come through with their "black box" fix to allow OE wheels speed sensors and full dash electronics to work. For a street/DE car, it's just not feasible to delete the tach or speedo functions, and have to add a full second set of sensors. No reason this can't be fixed electronically.

It is amazing nobody has written new software for the stock ABS system. How did your new front brakes work for you?

Spooler · 03-14-2023, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prandelia

Well, even with a proper pad combo (more front biased), AP Racing BBK (front) and good braking technique, proper tire sizes, and only 200TW tires, you simply cannot drive aggressively without wheels locking up on a stiff suspension/track oriented setup. I flat spotted a set of front tires again this weekend at NCM. The guys at Counterspace told me the car 100% needs to have less rear brake pad bias, via less aggressive pad, for track use. So that's what I've current done.

The system def. works better since the AP front kit install, but certain brake zones can exacerbate the issue.

The ABS is just outright dangerous for anybody that is a good driver and really wants to push this car. I make sure to give myself tons of room to the cars in front of me as a further precaution. Still waiting on another forum member to come through with their "black box" fix to allow OE wheels speed sensors and full dash electronics to work. For a street/DE car, it's just not feasible to delete the tach or speedo functions, and have to add a full second set of sensors. No reason this can't be fixed electronically.

Forgot to ask. What pads are you using on the front and rear? My car has been in the shop since last year. It's going back together now.

prandelia · 03-14-2023, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooler

Forgot to ask. What pads are you using on the front and rear? My car has been in the shop since last year. It's going back together now.

Originally ran CSG spec C2 front, CE1 rears with stock front brake setup.
Now with AP kit up front, running DS1.11 up front, and CSG Spec CE1 rears, so the front bias still remains as C2 and DS1.11 are virtually the same.

MotorvateDIY · 11-27-2023, 06:44 PM

Did you know the Nismo Z has a different ABS module than the rest of the 370s? ... and it might be much better?

The non-Nismo ABS module only broadcast the "side g" values (corning g forces) on the CAN bus. BUT the Nismo ABS module has "side g" and "acceleration / braking g" forces. It doesn't seem to have a sensor for braking/acceleration forces.

I wonder if this extra data can prevent ice mode?
In theory, if you are braking at 1.0+g and the wheels are moving a different speeds (like on ice), it should know it isn't "on ice" and not get into ice mode.

How did I find this out?

With the CAN bus reverse engineering I have done for the "GTR MFD Converter" that will allow any 370/G37 with nav to enable the GTR gauges, I came across this.
Below are some screen captures from the GTR MFD (actually my 2011 G37 Nav system, reconfigured for GTR gauges) showing the braking and acceleration screens with data from when I played back a CAN bus log file from a 2016 Nismo Z (6MT).

On a non-Nismo 370, the brake/acceleration screens always show 0. I looked at the CAN bus data, and it has a bunch of zeros for the braking/acceleration g forces in the data stream.

I guess the (silly) question is: Has any Nismo Z had "ice mode" at the track?
(silly, because I suspect NO ONE tracks their Nismo)

Maybe a Nismo ABS module in a non-Nismo Z the cheaper solution to ice mode???

For reference:
ABS module part numbers:
6MT 47660-3GM3B
7AT 47660-3GM1B

The 6MT Nismo ABS module is about $1400 new from Nissan
(https://parts.nissanusa.com/p/ABS-Hy...660-3GM3B.html)

One last point:
The "yaw sensor" (aka side g sensor) is the same on all 370 and G37. Either 49731-1EA1A or 49731-JK00A.
This is on a dedicated CAN bus directly to the ABS module and only senses/provides "side g" forces on that CAN bus.

This suggests the Nismo ABS module has the braking/acceleration sensor built into it.

Thoughts?

Averying · 11-27-2023, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotorvateDIY

Did you know the Nismo Z has a different ABS module than the rest of the 370s? ... and it might be much better?

The non-Nismo ABS module only broadcast the "side g" values (corning g forces) on the CAN bus. BUT the Nismo ABS module has "side g" and "acceleration / braking g" forces. It doesn't seem to have a sensor for braking/acceleration forces.

I wonder if this extra data can prevent ice mode?
In theory, if you are braking at 1.0+g and the wheels are moving a different speeds (like on ice), it should know it isn't "on ice" and not get into ice mode.

How did I find this out?

With the CAN bus reverse engineering I have done for the "GTR MFD Converter" that will allow any 370/G37 with nav to enable the GTR gauges, I came across this.
Below are some screen captures from the GTR MFD (actually my 2011 G37 Nav system, reconfigured for GTR gauges) showing the braking and acceleration screens with data from when I played back a CAN bus log file from a 2016 Nismo Z (6MT).

On a non-Nismo 370, the brake/acceleration screens always show 0. I looked at the CAN bus data, and it has a bunch of zeros for the braking/acceleration g forces in the data stream.

I guess the (silly) question is: Has any Nismo Z had "ice mode" at the track?
(silly, because I suspect NO ONE tracks their Nismo)

Maybe a Nismo ABS module in a non-Nismo Z the cheaper solution to ice mode???

For reference:
ABS module part numbers:
6MT 47660-3GM3B
7AT 47660-3GM1B

The 6MT Nismo ABS module is about $1400 new from Nissan
(https://parts.nissanusa.com/p/ABS-Hy...660-3GM3B.html)

One last point:
The "yaw sensor" (aka side g sensor) is the same on all 370 and G37. Either 49731-1EA1A or 49731-JK00A.
This is on a dedicated CAN bus directly to the ABS module and only senses/provides "side g" forces on that CAN bus.

This suggests the Nismo ABS module has the braking/acceleration sensor built into it.

Thoughts?

Hope people chime in here and can get you some real world data. Is this for both V1 & V2 Nismos?

Always enjoy reading your posts. Keep it up!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

11-21-2022, 12:49 AM	#271 (permalink)
justin_boy Track Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: woodland hills Posts: 600 Drives: z34 Rep Power: 8366	idk if anyone said in this thread but you can retrofit a mk60 from the e46 m3 and ive heard it'll fix that solution. also i used to go into ice mode alot evever since i started using slicks, ive found that building pressure in the pedal before smashing it down helps. Elmo370z likes this.

11-28-2022, 12:01 AM	#275 (permalink)
Girald Base Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Denver Posts: 134 Drives: 15' 370z SpTech 6MT Rep Power: 3362	ABS is the parent software governing ice mode.. its a traction and wheel slip issue... it has nothing to do with the mechanical brake system itself. The car software is basically tracking wheel slip via sensors and " thinks" you are on ice. Its attempting to limit brake input in order to help you gain control in an ice situation (because we all love driving our sports cars in the ice, apparently.) You can eliminate Ice mode by pulling the ABS.. but you default brake bias to 50/50 and... you no longer have abs. You are fighting the ECU... there are many different forms of mitigation, but 100% mitigation, is to toss the oem ecu, and add an aftermarket stand-alone system __________________ AAM tt'ed // Soon: Moving back to the East Coast

12-19-2022, 09:27 AM	#276 (permalink)
austins z Base Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: indiana Posts: 76 Drives: @austinhertel on IG Rep Power: 73	What's up guys, been awhile haha. I don't really get on here much, just check in from time to time. If you guys want the fix to this problem hit me up on IG: @austinhertel . I have ripped out the factory abs stuff and installed the MK60 system awhile back. To be clear here though, Ice mode is when you go to brake and your pedal is rock solid and the car is not stopping. Ice mode is not locking up the front or rear wheels and skidding across the pavement. If you are locking up wheels this needs to be fixed first, usually a mismatch in pad combo or driving style. Th mk60 is not going to be as good as the 7K bosch system mentioned but for around $2k-$3k the mk60 will at least be predictable and controllable. Again, I have a whole write up and pdf document I can send you on what is needed, cost, how to install, wiring diagram and everything, just hit me up on IG: @austinhertel . I should be able to shoot you in the right direction if you are serious about it, or have any other track related Z questions. I've been in the game for a good while now haha. sx moneypit, Averying and Zerberus like this.

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11-23-2022, 04:08 PM	#274 (permalink)
Evildky Base Member Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 89 Drives: 13 Nismo STU/T3 Rep Power: 10186	Heat isn't the issue for me. I get ice mode more at autocross than at the track, and i can replicate it on the street, going from 100% throttle to 100% brake immediately and it goes ice mode.