2013 Car and Driver Lightning Lap

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-12-2013, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370zrider

wonder what ideas Nissan has in mind for the z35. I don't expect a big improvement.

They can't handle cooling issues while staying on a budget, therefore turbocharging is far from being the solution. Maybe the only way they can improve the z is with a serious weight reduction

.

It was stated well over a year ago the next gen Z will be much lighter and leaner. So expect in the 300lb reduction arena. The 2012+ Z's received a moderate cooling improvement. I expect to see cooling improvements in the next gen.
Also, if the Z gets a smaller displacement and a larger bay? Cooling will come much easier to attain. Also, if they go turbo? I'm sure there will be engineering for better cooling. The GT-R doesn't have a cooling problem so i wouldn't expect to see the next gen Z with one. I don't forsee Nissan going ror more criticism on the Z. Mr. K complained and i think Nissan listened to him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

Why don't we compare 2013 Cayman to 2013 370z

Remember: Porsche got a complete redesign in 2013. We got DRL's woohoo!!!! Expect to see a competitive car in 2015. It's not realistic to compare last gen tech to new gen objectively.

cossie1600 · 05-12-2013, 02:14 PM

1st gen Cayman came out in 2005, so everyone was comparing a 2009 car to a 2005?

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-13-2013, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

1st gen Cayman came out in 2005, so everyone was comparing a 2009 car to a 2005?

1. They were comparing it to the 2008 which had updates in 2008,
2. Then in 2010, it went from 6 speed auto to PDK transmission.
3. The nissan to porsche redesign cycle is 3 years apart. Our redesign happens during there refresh. Actually, Porsche does things annual/2yr with some type of significance. Nissan doesn't.

For a car thats $30,000 more than the Z. Its fair to judge a 2008, cayman refresh to a 2009 Z redesign. Don't misinform to prove a borderline fanboy point.

Z_ealot · 05-13-2013, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370zrider

I think since R&T published this comparison, people (myself included) had the idea that the performance difference between 370z and Caymans is really short.

It may look weird that 370z's time is nearly 3 seconds slower than Cayman's

But I don't think Nissan could have improved the 350z that much as for having a big difference between the 370z and the 350z.

i think one interesting thing to note from the data sheet is the noise levels between the two, funny how many people and reviewers moan and groan about the Z being noisy on the inside when the freakin cayman in their test is just as noisy and even noisier in some situations lol

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-14-2013, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z_ealot

i think one interesting thing to note from the data sheet is the noise levels between the two, funny how many people and reviewers moan and groan about the Z being noisy on the inside when the freakin cayman in their test is just as noisy and even noisier in some situations lol

Noise levels had to be the stupidest major complaint of the Z. Completely normal for a dedicated sports car platform. No offense to the sound deadening crew. To each his own, but to make it a topic in sports car reviews is insanely retarded.
Any real sports car's charm is NOT having a quiet interior. Tire roar can be a little annoying, but the engine being harsh is ridiculous. Review only Cadillac if they want quiet engines. Speaking of which, The ATS turbo has a loud azz bov/wastegate for a luxury sedan. I wouldn't complain about it but, by reviewers standards... Why aren't they bytchin' bout the loud azz ATS 2.0 Turbo?

There's definitely a double-standard in this country for JDM sports cars.

Red__Zed · 05-14-2013, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

Noise levels had to be the stupidest major complaint of the Z. Completely normal for a dedicated sports car platform. No offense to the sound deadening crew. To each his own, but to make it a topic in sports car reviews is insanely retarded.
Any real sports car's charm is NOT having a quiet interior. Tire roar can be a little annoying, but the engine being harsh is ridiculous. Review only Cadillac if they want quiet engines. Speaking of which, The ATS turbo has a loud azz bov/wastegate for a luxury sedan. I wouldn't complain about it but, by reviewers standards... Why aren't they bytchin' bout the loud azz ATS 2.0 Turbo?

There's definitely a double-standard in this country for JDM sports cars.

It's all about the quality of the noise, rather than the raw volume.

It has nothing to do with country of origin--if anything Japanese cars get favorable treatment in nvh commentary (s2000, the whole Lexus line). The Z just happens to have a lot of less-pleasant noises (and a terrible stock tire)

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-14-2013, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

It's all about the quality of the noise, rather than the raw volume.

It has nothing to do with country of origin--if anything Japanese cars get favorable treatment in nvh commentary (s2000, the whole Lexus line). The Z just happens to have a lot of less-pleasant noises (and a terrible stock tire)

Some people can't handle raw. I like raw... Raw and Real rather than fake and synthesized.

Red__Zed · 05-14-2013, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

Some people can't handle raw. I like raw... Raw and Real rather than fake and synthesized.

Raw means different things to different people.

I don't mind a raw experience if the whole car is raw, but I don't want a dead silent exhaust and a ton of insulation up front alongside diff whine and tire noise.

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-14-2013, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Raw means different things to different people.

I don't mind a raw experience if the whole car is raw, but I don't want a dead silent exhaust and a ton of insulation up front alongside diff whine and tire noise.

Tire noise can be fixed. Diff whine??? I don't have that or don't hear it? And you don't drive a Z so you don't have to deal with it. Owners will tend to find it less of an issue. That's why we haven't traded.

Red__Zed · 05-14-2013, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

Tire noise can be fixed. Diff whine??? I don't have that or don't hear it? And you don't drive a Z so you don't have to deal with it. Owners will tend to find it less of an issue. That's why we haven't traded.

I never really cared about the noise, but then again I was coming from a convertible with an exhaust that sounded like the space shuttle, that rattled like a tool chest on a shaker table.

I'm simply making the point that the NVH in the Z is unpleasant to many, which is why it's a discussion point. It's not really any louder than most comparable cars, it's just a different type of noise.

The Z noise is far from "raw." I'd recommend hopping in the roadster of your choice for that experience--you'll find the noise to correlate more closely with what the car is doing. Hell, even the Cayman manages to do a good job of providing audio feedback.

The good news is, audio quality is low on the list of most potential shoppers, and exhaust and stereo pretty quickly get things into a better place on that front.

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-14-2013, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

I never really cared about the noise, but then again I was coming from a convertible with an exhaust that sounded like the space shuttle, that rattled like a tool chest on a shaker table.

I'm simply making the point that the NVH in the Z is unpleasant to many, which is why it's a discussion point. It's not really any louder than most comparable cars, it's just a different type of noise.

The Z noise is far from "raw." I'd recommend hopping in the roadster of your choice for that experience--you'll find the noise to correlate more closely with what the car is doing. Hell, even the Cayman manages to do a good job of providing audio feedback.

The good news is, audio quality is low on the list of most potential shoppers, and exhaust and stereo pretty quickly get things into a better place on that front.

Not so much low on peoples list, but its a simple and repairable issue. We have quality exhausts ranging from $600-$5,000+. There are at least a dozen if not more exhausts for the Z that make it sound awesome.

The Porsche has a better sound? At $61k starting.... I hope so. The Z isn't the best sounding car out there. But its overexaggerated how bad it is. It isn't even bad. Non-owners and people desperately getting into other cars for whatever reason will nit-pick these things at greater volume than needed. It is what it is.

Red__Zed · 05-14-2013, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

Not so much low on peoples list, but its a simple and repairable issue. We have quality exhausts ranging from $600-$5,000+. There are at least a dozen if not more exhausts for the Z that make it sound awesome.

The Porsche has a better sound? At $61k starting.... I hope so. The Z isn't the best sounding car out there. But its overexaggerated how bad it is. It isn't even bad. Non-owners and people desperately getting into other cars for whatever reason will nit-pick these things at greater volume than needed. It is what it is.

It matters differently to everyone. There are a number of owners on this forum that have spent a lot of money trying to adjust the way the Z makes noise.

Quit trying to read in things that aren't there. I don't have an issue with the sound, I'm just explaining why others do.

Red__Zed · 05-14-2013, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red6spd

I know I will just be told I'm making crap up and I will be demanded to show proof but its been so long ago its hard to find but the 370 in this test was abused heavily for every mile on its clock. Its the same 370Z they achieved a pathetic 0-60 time of around 5.5 seconds and a 1/4 mile in the high 13's. In the same article they even mention it felt wrong the car. So I know I will be blasted by some people but this is the reason this car ran such a garbage lap.

OK, I will bite, but only because I'm bored without my ZdayZ fix.

Not only have you made this statement no less than four times without providing a source, the lap time deltas are comparable to a number of other tests. Whether the car was abused any differently than any other car in the test (because let's face it, none of these cars were being babied)is subject to debate, but there's certainly been no admission of such from C&D--which means it is all speculative.

I'll save you the 8 second google search and provide the post-mortem here:

Z Meets Wall: We Investigate Why the NISMO Z's Brakes Failed at Lightning Lap - Feature - Car and Driver

Verdict? Lack of air on the brakes--nothing new to anyone who's familiar with the Z. Nothing about the car having been abused. There's also no mention of the car having felt wrong, as you seem to indicate. You can also scope the original article and find the same thing rings true (although you might contend that the below description of the car indicates something was wrong

)

Lightning Lap 2009 - Car Comparison - Feature Article - Page 8

Quote:

Even with enormous grip from its Yokohama Advan Sports, the Z feels uncomfortable and slightly disconnected when pressed. A high-effort shifter fights quick gearchanges, and the 350-hp V-6’s character turns coarse as it runs to redline. We also wondered whether all 350 ponies showed up.

Now, back to the point I was making earlier, let's compare the Z's performance at VIR against another mag test.

Lightning lap:

Mustang GT 3:08.6
370Z : 3:12.00
EXO MR : 3:13.3
Mini Cooper John Cooper Works : 3:17.1
Volkswagen GTI : 3:19.3
Miata 3:29.3

Now, let's take a look at another test--this one with a fresh Z:

The Z still slots in right where you'd expect given the course change and such. You can't make this sort of stuff up! And, since I know that sometimes it is hard to compare numbers, here are the scaled track times, in visual format:

Blue dots are LL, red dots are scaled Grattan times.

My takeaway from these results is that if anyone was going to complain about their car's performance at LL, it should be the poor guys in Miatas...

So, I'm not convinced there is any evidence supporting the claim that the 370Z in the LL test was some sort of oddity--if you have any, I would love to see it.

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-14-2013, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

It matters differently to everyone. There are a number of owners on this forum that have spent a lot of money trying to adjust the way the Z makes noise.

Quit trying to read in things that aren't there. I don't have an issue with the sound, I'm just explaining why others do.

Quit trying to explain every fvckin thing.

It boils down to the fact is a fixable issue that's overstated. You're saying what im saying. I'm saying its not a big deal. You're saying it is to many. Varied opinions. I think the media boosted that overstatement Go figure...
Thats my point but you gotta keep going and going and going and going. Cuz Red doesn't feel good about himself unless he's aggressively trying to prove himself right and have the last word.

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-14-2013, 01:57 PM

How did the 2013 brake hosed and oil cooled Nismo do? All this talk about ancient history...

EDIT: Actually,C&D shows too many overall biases on certain brands to even hold them credible. No other mag is as one sided as C&D. I only will read the first drives & long term tests in that mag. Performance TESTS i leave to R&T and MT.

05-14-2013, 01:57 PM	#165 (permalink)
UNKNOWN_370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ny'r livn in tx Posts: 8,687 Drives: well over 130m.p.h. Rep Power: 14857	How did the 2013 brake hosed and oil cooled Nismo do? All this talk about ancient history... EDIT: Actually,C&D shows too many overall biases on certain brands to even hold them credible. No other mag is as one sided as C&D. I only will read the first drives & long term tests in that mag. Performance TESTS i leave to R&T and MT. __________________ Favorite Quote. "I'm not gonna kill you... I'm just gonna Bash Your Face In" Jack Nicholson-"The Shining". 1980 Last edited by UNKNOWN_370; 05-14-2013 at 02:04 PM.

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05-12-2013, 02:14 PM	#152 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 29	1st gen Cayman came out in 2005, so everyone was comparing a 2009 car to a 2005?