A true sports car shouldn't be very good at being a normal car. Its job is to lure you to drive it to nowhere in particular and back, as often as possible. It need only convert petroleum into smiles.

If someone is evaluating a sports car for the number of cupholders it has, ride comfort, the quality of the audio, or the practicality of the back seats, then they are fooling themselves. So is the manufacturer, for showing the car on a race track.

I guess that trucks are advertised by showing them carrying loads of steel off a jobsite, pulling stumps, and towing a small house. Most are actually sold for taking the family on trips and potentially hauling some toys or a few sheets of drywall. But at least it's true that they CAN do what the adverts show.

Maybe it is me after all. I know it's a big purchase. Having a vehicle that can be all things is a "sensible" approach for both buyer and manufacturer. But that kind of car will never be exceptional at anything (excepting possibly some Porsches). At least not without substantial mods. Most are barely adequate at anything. And the word "sensible" does not belong in the same sentence as "sports car". Except perhaps the way I just used it!

I honestly couldn't have said it better myself. I know some daily drive their Z, but for me this is a toy that I take out on nice days, drive on road trips, take to shows and play with occasionally at the track. I will say that I'm at a point in my life where i can afford to have several other cars, one of which is my daily driver. I do understand that not everyone is at the same point in their life. I don't think a sports car should be designed for the masses, but in the end it all comes down to what sells. It will be interesting to see the sales numbers on the new Supra.

Do you consider the 370Z a sports car then?

Not as much of a pure sports car as my Alfa 4C.
But more of one than the Supra, from what I've read.

It is quite probable that the compromises that Nissan have made in building the 370Z a little less hard core have been what has kept the car on sale for 10 years practically unchanged. It's loud, low, rough-riding, beautiful, has enough power to be fun (but not enough torque!), beautifully balanced, RWD and set up a bit for oversteer, has crappy audio and minimal storage. Those all tick my boxes for sports car. Overly heavy heated electric seats and an abundance of cupholders don't do it for me (but they do help sales). Comes in a manual (which doesn't make it fast, but definitely plays to the "sports" nature of the car).

My synopsis: the 370Z is quite difficult to get in and out of. But once you get in you don't really care about exiting. Or about anything else but driving. So by my benchmark, it's a proper sports car.

I should add that the Supra will probably outsell the 370Z (the initial sales numbers, not 2018's mature ones), because of the very features that make the ToyotaMW less of a "sports car" to me.

So yeah, I get WHY they do that. I just wish they didn't. And in that respect, thank goodness for the aftermarket!

well, 370Z sales are always bad in the US..People seem to go towards the Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers

One cannot at all say the Supra is less of anything until you drive it and firm data filled reviews are done by the press and others. Considering the time Toyota has put into the project I feel the car will be a pleasing sportscar experience based on the prototype test reviews published and the specs released thus far.

If one wants remotely pure sportscar get a Caterham lol

According to some of the opinions on this thread a Formula 1 car isn't a "race car" because their transmissions never disengage power from the engine to the rest of the drivetrain and the drivers attempt to deliver power to the road in the smooth, efficient manner. Only NASCAR or other stock cars with the built-in driver-assisted self-destruction and skill-proving devices called a clutch are "race cars".

I have seen the Alfa Romeo 4C mentioned...It uses a DCT, so not a sports car?


Am I getting this right?


I ask the question between a DCT vs ZF because the Supra is not offered in a manual. When I learned that it was using a ZF I don't see this as a disappointment as I was very impressed at the smooth delivery of power to the road making the M240i very quick and fun to drive.


In my opinion the Supra is a sports car, and if one were to use it as a daily driver I see the ZF transmission as a great compromise making it something that will be very effective if one were to bring it to the track occasionally.


I have modified my Z to the point where it is annoying and obnoxious when driven in traffic, but otherwise a pure pleasure to drive when not boxed in by a bunch lame sedans. Luckily I get to keep it and am looking at a sporty coupe that is only offered in a ZF transmission due to the need for AWD.

A 3-pedal manual is neither necessary nor sufficient IMO in rating the car a “sports” one. But the availability of one does put a tick on the “pro” side of the ledger.

A DCT is just the 21st century equivalent of the 3-pedal arrangemet. It is still a manual box, but faster shifting and adds some possibility for automated function and includes electronic overrides to protect engine and transmission. Deals better with today’s torque figures, too.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with an automatic, and ZF is a benchmark manufacturer. But it puts more layers between the driver and their control/feel of the car.

I daily a BMW M2. Sportscar. DCT. I can manual shift. I drive a sportscar :) To work, to the gym, to the store or to simply drive. Its a car - you drive it. If you are happy with your car - that is all that matters in life. So personal it is.

Options are a beautiful thing.

Body kit renderings for the new supra make it more aggressive and more like the FT-1 concept.

https://www.carscoops.com/2019/01/20...job-well-sort/

At least this thread is more interesting than the Kia Stinger thread.:stirthepot:

:thumbsdown: :stirthepot:

Bottom rear pic right away reminded me of the rx8... ugh
I love the new supra look but that was my first thought.

It's going to be a decent car for sure. I can see a manual coming out and Toyota really pushing the car. Tuners will find ways to make it a beast and reliable...

I remember my350z.com bashing the 370z and now tables turn.

The biggest issue I have was not having a Toyota motor and lack of manual options which may come soon enough as Europe will get a 3rd pedal. So the transmission is built.

Saw one spiderwebed up today going down the road. (I work near where a lot of test vehicles come out to play & where they come off the boat) looked a little bit like an Alpha 4C at a glance head on, but was no doubt the Supra when I saw the rear spoiler.

I don't know why people are saying that the new Supra looks like an rx8? It looks nothing like an rx8, looks more like a mini viper coupe gts.

Nah, in stock form it looks like a BMW Z4 with a hard top, funny grille, and fake vents. Which isn't really a coincidence.

The body kit linked on the prior page is definitely Viper-inspired, and is a major improvement in the looks department.

https://images.carscoops.com/2019/01...g-render-1.jpg

RX8 - I think it might be the long hood. I saw it too, a bit, but it doesn't scream 16-year-old Wankel Mazda.

The one I saw looked like this, minus the Euro plate & and add the anti-spy wrap ;) Didn't catch what the wheels looked like.

https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/ima...w-115058_1.jpg

This car isn't getting much love on the net. :rofl2:

I said the pic with the wide body kit flares my initial thought reminded me of an rx8. I never thought it looked like an rx8. It was like the roarshack cards and someone says what does this remind you of and you say butterfly when in fact it's just an ink blot... it was merely my first thought of the wide body kit pic.... NOT the regular supra

So... if TRD gets into a collaboration with Gazoo Racing... could we have...

a GRANDTRD SUPRA?!?! A.... grand... turd... ?! GET IT GUYZ?!

On a serious note, I'll weigh in on this thing. I may have before in another thread, but EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT... so here goes part 1 of 2.

Today's sports car revivals/revisions are damned if you do, damned if you don't. The Supra was damned from the start - after all this anticipation, all this buildup, all this unreasonably incessant speculation, they could have released a Bugatti Veyron killer for $100k and you're still going to end up with a large subset of Supra hipsters going "elbows too pointy, would not bang."

The powerplant choice was doomed from the start. You could have shoved in the RCF V8 (which would have been my pick - solid power and Toyota reliability, plus NA - less complexity) and had all the straight-6 fanboys pissed off. So what do they do? Put in a turbo straight-6... piss everyone off anyway.

The highest performing sports/super cars now use dual clutch or high-performing torque converter automatics. The fastest Camaros are 10 speed autos, the GT-R is a dual clutch, the M cars all dropped manuals except for the M4, and the take rates for those that offer manuals are so small the business case for even spending the R&D money to make it an option doesn't make any damn sense on any damn level except the emotional one. Emotions aren't good for business unless the business is emotion. So anyway, what does Toyota do? Offer a Supra, but it's gotta come with an automatic. Manual purists are mad.

There are so many things they could have done/could not have done that there is just no way to even know if reviving the Supra could have ever been a grand slam home run. Even if they remade the 1998 exactly as it was built in 1998, you'd have a subset of people that would be like "dude do something new - it's not competitive".

Gotta give it to Toyota for trying to throw an entry into a segment with the most difficult and stubborn buyers in the world. They release a cheap, lightweight, affordable 2 seater in the GT86, and people are like "has Prius wheels" and "not enough power". So they make a new car without prius wheels and twice the power. "It's not a toyota", "has BMW interior", "not enough power". The next one (if there is one) will have double the power, but cost more. "too expensive" "I can get a used 1989 Ferrari Testarossa for that"

We have no one to blame but ourselves for the state of the sports car segment. And hipsters. Always blame hipsters.

POST OF THE MOMENT!! :) Some hipster will come along and do better LOL. Just give it time :) :happydance:

Spot-fkn-on in all seriousness! :tup::tup::tup:

Now, what would I buy with $50k given the Supra is an option? Not a Supra. Here's why.

For not much less, I can have a Z Nismo with a manual. I trust the VQ37's iron clad reliability over any modern powerplant from BMW. This would have been a different story if the Lexus V8 was inside. The Z is more of what people are actually claiming to want from a sports car, but so many people dog it "because it's old". Well guess what everyone really wanted? A brand new 1998 Supra! Sports car buyers either already have exactly what they want and aren't buying anything new no matter how good it is, or buyers "wanna buy something, but not that." AKA they have no idea what they want, and they'll always find something to not like about it.

The enthusiast claims that he props up the sports car market and the sports car makers need to cater to him to be successful. The sports car makers make an attempt to satisfy enthusiast, enthusiast plays the enthusiast hipster card and does not buy. Or waits to buy used because "too expensive and I don't understand how inflation works when I compare new supra to old supra, or new 370Z to Z32 twin turbo" (look it up - a Z34 is in the price range of an S13 hatchback, new for new, when adjusting for inflation. I guarantee this new Supra is cheaper than the old one was when it was new.)

It is what it is. I think the Supra looks great, but the fact that it's really a BMW inside isn't what I would want from a Supra. I would rather buy the purer 370Z Nismo over it, trading some bells and whistles and an extra half second to 60 that I will probably never notice while enjoying the car, and have my manual transmission. Yeah, it's a homer pick, but if I couldn't pick the Z, I probably still wouldn't pick a Supra for $50k. I'd just employ the brute force technique on a Camaro SS 1LE, or save a touch more for a BMW M2, and then I'd have a BMW badge to go with my BMW, and I wouldn't have this nagging obligation to use my turn signals.

Supra hipsters going "elbows too pointy, would not bang."


I'm dying over here!!!! :rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

It does look nice when you mangle the stock body(cut up the stock fenders) to add a widebody or fender flares. You gotta really commit to owning one to drop the value that much and destroy the shell, just to make the car look nice.

whats funny is, it just helps the car look more like the FT1 concept we all wanted.

I actually like the new Supra but it just isn't what I think many of us expected. It reminds me of how the Pontiac GTO got its revamp and then unfortunately failed even though the car was damn stout. I don't know, it could go either way. Hell even the 370 was looked at as "too different".....but at least it was all Nissan lol

You make excellent points (as usual).
The thing is that Toyota brought all this upon themselves by resurrecting the "Supra" monicker. They could have simply called it the "FT", a production version of FT-1 Concept and improvement on the GT-86. With all of the expectations waived, half of the criticism disappears. Still doesn't address the BMW-in-a-Toyota-jacket issue, but as people have said, that has pros and cons.

But even if they didn't call it a supra, then everyone will just say, "oh they should have just made a new supra". At the end of the day, it's just part of the hype train and no mere mortals have really driven the car yet. I feel like we're all judging based on looks and numbers on paper, but none of us really know how it drives. My only gripe with it is that the nose of the car looks like an actual nose....it's kinda weird. The back looks fantastic IMO. And "Supra" or not, it's probably a car that deserves a real drive. Toyota and BMW are two serious names in the car game, both in regular consumer cars and in motorsport history. It could be that the car is more than the sum of its parts. If all everyone wants is monster power for less than 50k, go American. I don't think BMW or Toyota have ever been the kings of bang for your buck for pure power.

IMO, the old supra isn't that pretty either.

I wouldn't buy one. But I'd put my dìck in the exhaust :twocents:

My gripe with this is the numbers on paper are what are supposed to help drum up the interest on the car itself, especially price. When the 350Z came out, the numbers on the paper were virtually untouched by the competition when you took the whole package into consideration (mainly the price - the car was insanely competitive on all fronts at the time).

There's not a single number on paper that makes your eyes pop in 2019 if you have to consider the price that comes with it. 4.1s to 60... Camaros do that. 320hp? 370Zs have been doing that for about 35 years. $50k price tag on a sports coupe? Porsches do that... this is a Toyota (on paper).

The only thing earth-shattering about the car is the nameplate. That's a problem when the nameplate once signified one of the most iconic Japanese grand tourers to ever exist. This is almost as bad as buying a GT-R emblem from AutoZone and putting it on my Cavalier when I was in high school. IF YOU PRETEND HARD ENOUGH IT'S NOT A CAVALIER, OK?! God, high school sucked.

It's not Japanese. It's not a Toyota. It's not a Supra. It's a BMW Z4 Coupe on loan to the Toyota badge shop... on paper.

On paper, an R35 GT-R was set to scorch the earth in 2009. The performance for the dollar was unheard of. The paper stats of that car were so good, I'm not sure people would have even taken detractors seriously. Turns out the car was pretty good too, whether you like DCTs or not. It performed as advertised, and for some it surpassed even that... So much so that Porsche didn't believe anyone and bought one of their own to test.

The only thing left to figure out about this Supra is, upon driving it, does it drive like a Supra or a BMW? All signs are pointing to the latter. Some people won't care, but the overwhelming majority of their target market will. Should we expect the sales numbers to look a lot like a GT-86? I hope not, because we'll never see sports cars from Japan again if they do. I guarantee you Nissan has been watching, and it's exactly why we still have the Z34 and R35 soldiering on as intended in 2009.

If it does drive like a dream... is it worth $50k? It already seems like a tall order.

You would diick anything. :rofl2:

Not true. I am very particular about certain things. Others, not so much ;)

Like almost everyone on here, I'm dissapointed that the new Supra is not a Toyota JDM vehicle. However if I was in the market for a hardtop, 2 seater with auto trans, I'd seriously give this car a look.

Having purchased a new 2013 sport z and driven it for 5 years and now having purchased a new 2017 BMW M2 18 months ago, this car could be a really fun ride. The Supra will have about the same amount of torque, 50/50 weight distribution as my M2, plus a shorter wheelbase and a lower center of gravity. I won't go into the pros & cons of the M2 vs the Z as I already did that on another post, in this area of the forum.

At $50k US, the right to own one of these won't suit everyone, but if you're elegible, the BMW option will cost you $65k + shipping/delivery. So a ToyBMW car maybe a good option. Below is a review which pits the BMW version vs the Porsche 718.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-re...he-718-cayman/

On paper it's not spectacular but I'm waiting for the behind the wheel experience. This may possibly the most balanced FR out their. The Z is front heavy. If this corners very balanced then we have a winner? If it doesn't? Then let's pray the rx9 or new Z come soon

The new Supra is Toyota's attempt to put a decent mid-size sports car in the lineup to improve image with minimum effort and cost so that they can sell more TRD Camrys and TRD Avalons. If Toyota really wants to do the new Supra right, it should be a Toyota hardware with BMW tuning, not the other way around. The 1st gen MR2 had Lotus worked on the suspension and Yamaha worked on the 4AGE engine. By the end of the day, a Toyota-tuned BMW that costs like a BMW and requires maintenance like a BMW with no manual transmission option is not appealing to me. I will just get myself a BMW M240i with a manual transmission instead.

my buddy bought one. i'll be curious to see what it looks like in person once it gets delivered.

waiting to see how bad the actual design of the Z got ripped off lol

I have driven cars with paddle shifters, but they weren't the performance type by any means. During the test drive of the M240i xDrive I switched to manual mode which intrigued me. Is driving the M2 DCT in manual mode fun in a different way than a 3 pedal?

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...mw-z4-engines/

Why the Toyota Supra Makes Less Power Than the BMW Z4

The engines are nearly equal, but not equal enough.