2020 Supra... first thoughts

*J*ap***V*et* · 01-30-2019, 12:55 PM

I actually like the new Supra but it just isn't what I think many of us expected. It reminds me of how the Pontiac GTO got its revamp and then unfortunately failed even though the car was damn stout. I don't know, it could go either way. Hell even the 370 was looked at as "too different".....but at least it was all Nissan lol

ZCanadian · 01-30-2019, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RicerX

On a serious note, I'll weigh in on this thing. I may have before in another thread, but EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT... so here goes part 1 of 2.

Today's sports car revivals/revisions are damned if you do, damned if you don't. The Supra was damned from the start - after all this anticipation, all this buildup, all this unreasonably incessant speculation, they could have released a Bugatti Veyron killer for $100k and you're still going to end up with a large subset of Supra hipsters going "elbows too pointy, would not bang."

The powerplant choice was doomed from the start. You could have shoved in the RCF V8 (which would have been my pick - solid power and Toyota reliability, plus NA - less complexity) and had all the straight-6 fanboys pissed off. So what do they do? Put in a turbo straight-6... piss everyone off anyway.

The highest performing sports/super cars now use dual clutch or high-performing torque converter automatics. The fastest Camaros are 10 speed autos, the GT-R is a dual clutch, the M cars all dropped manuals except for the M4, and the take rates for those that offer manuals are so small the business case for even spending the R&D money to make it an option doesn't make any damn sense on any damn level except the emotional one. Emotions aren't good for business unless the business is emotion. So anyway, what does Toyota do? Offer a Supra, but it's gotta come with an automatic. Manual purists are mad.

There are so many things they could have done/could not have done that there is just no way to even know if reviving the Supra could have ever been a grand slam home run. Even if they remade the 1998 exactly as it was built in 1998, you'd have a subset of people that would be like "dude do something new - it's not competitive".

Gotta give it to Toyota for trying to throw an entry into a segment with the most difficult and stubborn buyers in the world. They release a cheap, lightweight, affordable 2 seater in the GT86, and people are like "has Prius wheels" and "not enough power". So they make a new car without prius wheels and twice the power. "It's not a toyota", "has BMW interior", "not enough power". The next one (if there is one) will have double the power, but cost more. "too expensive" "I can get a used 1989 Ferrari Testarossa for that"

We have no one to blame but ourselves for the state of the sports car segment. And hipsters. Always blame hipsters.

You make excellent points (as usual).
The thing is that Toyota brought all this upon themselves by resurrecting the "Supra" monicker. They could have simply called it the "FT", a production version of FT-1 Concept and improvement on the GT-86. With all of the expectations waived, half of the criticism disappears. Still doesn't address the BMW-in-a-Toyota-jacket issue, but as people have said, that has pros and cons.

RicerX · 01-30-2019, 10:41 AM

Now, what would I buy with $50k given the Supra is an option? Not a Supra. Here's why.

For not much less, I can have a Z Nismo with a manual. I trust the VQ37's iron clad reliability over any modern powerplant from BMW. This would have been a different story if the Lexus V8 was inside. The Z is more of what people are actually claiming to want from a sports car, but so many people dog it "because it's old". Well guess what everyone really wanted? A brand new 1998 Supra! Sports car buyers either already have exactly what they want and aren't buying anything new no matter how good it is, or buyers "wanna buy something, but not that." AKA they have no idea what they want, and they'll always find something to not like about it.

The enthusiast claims that he props up the sports car market and the sports car makers need to cater to him to be successful. The sports car makers make an attempt to satisfy enthusiast, enthusiast plays the enthusiast hipster card and does not buy. Or waits to buy used because "too expensive and I don't understand how inflation works when I compare new supra to old supra, or new 370Z to Z32 twin turbo" (look it up - a Z34 is in the price range of an S13 hatchback, new for new, when adjusting for inflation. I guarantee this new Supra is cheaper than the old one was when it was new.)

It is what it is. I think the Supra looks great, but the fact that it's really a BMW inside isn't what I would want from a Supra. I would rather buy the purer 370Z Nismo over it, trading some bells and whistles and an extra half second to 60 that I will probably never notice while enjoying the car, and have my manual transmission. Yeah, it's a homer pick, but if I couldn't pick the Z, I probably still wouldn't pick a Supra for $50k. I'd just employ the brute force technique on a Camaro SS 1LE, or save a touch more for a BMW M2, and then I'd have a BMW badge to go with my BMW, and I wouldn't have this nagging obligation to use my turn signals.

Shoeshear · 01-30-2019, 02:12 PM

But even if they didn't call it a supra, then everyone will just say, "oh they should have just made a new supra". At the end of the day, it's just part of the hype train and no mere mortals have really driven the car yet. I feel like we're all judging based on looks and numbers on paper, but none of us really know how it drives. My only gripe with it is that the nose of the car looks like an actual nose....it's kinda weird. The back looks fantastic IMO. And "Supra" or not, it's probably a car that deserves a real drive. Toyota and BMW are two serious names in the car game, both in regular consumer cars and in motorsport history. It could be that the car is more than the sum of its parts. If all everyone wants is monster power for less than 50k, go American. I don't think BMW or Toyota have ever been the kings of bang for your buck for pure power.

IMO, the old supra isn't that pretty either.

RicerX · 01-30-2019, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoeshear

But even if they didn't call it a supra, then everyone will just say, "oh they should have just made a new supra". At the end of the day, it's just part of the hype train and no mere mortals have really driven the car yet. I feel like we're all judging based on looks and numbers on paper, but none of us really know how it drives.

My gripe with this is the numbers on paper are what are supposed to help drum up the interest on the car itself, especially price. When the 350Z came out, the numbers on the paper were virtually untouched by the competition when you took the whole package into consideration (mainly the price - the car was insanely competitive on all fronts at the time).

There's not a single number on paper that makes your eyes pop in 2019 if you have to consider the price that comes with it. 4.1s to 60... Camaros do that. 320hp? 370Zs have been doing that for about 35 years. $50k price tag on a sports coupe? Porsches do that... this is a Toyota (on paper).

The only thing earth-shattering about the car is the nameplate. That's a problem when the nameplate once signified one of the most iconic Japanese grand tourers to ever exist. This is almost as bad as buying a GT-R emblem from AutoZone and putting it on my Cavalier when I was in high school. IF YOU PRETEND HARD ENOUGH IT'S NOT A CAVALIER, OK?! God, high school sucked.

It's not Japanese. It's not a Toyota. It's not a Supra. It's a BMW Z4 Coupe on loan to the Toyota badge shop... on paper.

On paper, an R35 GT-R was set to scorch the earth in 2009. The performance for the dollar was unheard of. The paper stats of that car were so good, I'm not sure people would have even taken detractors seriously. Turns out the car was pretty good too, whether you like DCTs or not. It performed as advertised, and for some it surpassed even that... So much so that Porsche didn't believe anyone and bought one of their own to test.

The only thing left to figure out about this Supra is, upon driving it, does it drive like a Supra or a BMW? All signs are pointing to the latter. Some people won't care, but the overwhelming majority of their target market will. Should we expect the sales numbers to look a lot like a GT-86? I hope not, because we'll never see sports cars from Japan again if they do. I guarantee you Nissan has been watching, and it's exactly why we still have the Z34 and R35 soldiering on as intended in 2009.

If it does drive like a dream... is it worth $50k? It already seems like a tall order.

JARblue · 01-30-2019, 02:29 PM

I wouldn't buy one. But I'd put my dìck in the exhaust

Rusty · 01-30-2019, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JARblue

I wouldn't buy one. But I'd put my dìck in the exhaust

You would diick anything.

JARblue · 01-30-2019, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

You would diick anything.

Not true. I am very particular about certain things. Others, not so much

Magic Bus · 01-31-2019, 03:28 PM

Like almost everyone on here, I'm dissapointed that the new Supra is not a Toyota JDM vehicle. However if I was in the market for a hardtop, 2 seater with auto trans, I'd seriously give this car a look.

Having purchased a new 2013 sport z and driven it for 5 years and now having purchased a new 2017 BMW M2 18 months ago, this car could be a really fun ride. The Supra will have about the same amount of torque, 50/50 weight distribution as my M2, plus a shorter wheelbase and a lower center of gravity. I won't go into the pros & cons of the M2 vs the Z as I already did that on another post, in this area of the forum.

At $50k US, the right to own one of these won't suit everyone, but if you're elegible, the BMW option will cost you $65k + shipping/delivery. So a ToyBMW car maybe a good option. Below is a review which pits the BMW version vs the Porsche 718.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-re...he-718-cayman/

UNKNOWN_370 · 01-31-2019, 09:17 PM

On paper it's not spectacular but I'm waiting for the behind the wheel experience. This may possibly the most balanced FR out their. The Z is front heavy. If this corners very balanced then we have a winner? If it doesn't? Then let's pray the rx9 or new Z come soon

GraphiteZ · 02-01-2019, 10:13 AM

The new Supra is Toyota's attempt to put a decent mid-size sports car in the lineup to improve image with minimum effort and cost so that they can sell more TRD Camrys and TRD Avalons. If Toyota really wants to do the new Supra right, it should be a Toyota hardware with BMW tuning, not the other way around. The 1st gen MR2 had Lotus worked on the suspension and Yamaha worked on the 4AGE engine. By the end of the day, a Toyota-tuned BMW that costs like a BMW and requires maintenance like a BMW with no manual transmission option is not appealing to me. I will just get myself a BMW M240i with a manual transmission instead.

FPenvy · 02-01-2019, 10:23 AM

my buddy bought one. i'll be curious to see what it looks like in person once it gets delivered.

waiting to see how bad the actual design of the Z got ripped off lol

DLSTR · 02-02-2019, 11:52 AM

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...mw-z4-engines/

Why the Toyota Supra Makes Less Power Than the BMW Z4

The engines are nearly equal, but not equal enough.

UNKNOWN_370 · 02-03-2019, 09:13 AM

Answered questions about how the supra was engineered.

https://youtu.be/_jbyzmtgU_0

UNKNOWN_370 · 02-04-2019, 10:55 AM

EXACTLY!!!! IIm glad this video exists so I don't have to write.

https://youtu.be/1aoAeB195uo

Though this is about Mazda deciding NOT to make a Mazdaspeed 3. It falls in line what this vid is saying. We gotta be happy that somebody even came out with a new sports car that wasn't. muscle. Period! Mazda claims no money for R&D.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/02/04/...o-mazdaspeed3/

01-30-2019, 12:55 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jap**Vet* Enthusiast Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Illinois Posts: 479 Drives: 2009 370z Rep Power: 115135	I actually like the new Supra but it just isn't what I think many of us expected. It reminds me of how the Pontiac GTO got its revamp and then unfortunately failed even though the car was damn stout. I don't know, it could go either way. Hell even the 370 was looked at as "too different".....but at least it was all Nissan lol Spartan 1771, Zingston and Falconquey like this.

01-30-2019, 10:41 AM	#3 (permalink)
RicerX Track Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: TN Posts: 597 Drives: To the Pizza joint. Rep Power: 7722	Now, what would I buy with $50k given the Supra is an option? Not a Supra. Here's why. For not much less, I can have a Z Nismo with a manual. I trust the VQ37's iron clad reliability over any modern powerplant from BMW. This would have been a different story if the Lexus V8 was inside. The Z is more of what people are actually claiming to want from a sports car, but so many people dog it "because it's old". Well guess what everyone really wanted? A brand new 1998 Supra! Sports car buyers either already have exactly what they want and aren't buying anything new no matter how good it is, or buyers "wanna buy something, but not that." AKA they have no idea what they want, and they'll always find something to not like about it. The enthusiast claims that he props up the sports car market and the sports car makers need to cater to him to be successful. The sports car makers make an attempt to satisfy enthusiast, enthusiast plays the enthusiast hipster card and does not buy. Or waits to buy used because "too expensive and I don't understand how inflation works when I compare new supra to old supra, or new 370Z to Z32 twin turbo" (look it up - a Z34 is in the price range of an S13 hatchback, new for new, when adjusting for inflation. I guarantee this new Supra is cheaper than the old one was when it was new.) It is what it is. I think the Supra looks great, but the fact that it's really a BMW inside isn't what I would want from a Supra. I would rather buy the purer 370Z Nismo over it, trading some bells and whistles and an extra half second to 60 that I will probably never notice while enjoying the car, and have my manual transmission. Yeah, it's a homer pick, but if I couldn't pick the Z, I probably still wouldn't pick a Supra for $50k. I'd just employ the brute force technique on a Camaro SS 1LE, or save a touch more for a BMW M2, and then I'd have a BMW badge to go with my BMW, and I wouldn't have this nagging obligation to use my turn signals. Spartan 1771, JARblue, Rusty and 6 others like this. __________________

01-30-2019, 02:12 PM	#4 (permalink)
Shoeshear Base Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 127 Drives: '15 370z Sport MT Rep Power: 3364	But even if they didn't call it a supra, then everyone will just say, "oh they should have just made a new supra". At the end of the day, it's just part of the hype train and no mere mortals have really driven the car yet. I feel like we're all judging based on looks and numbers on paper, but none of us really know how it drives. My only gripe with it is that the nose of the car looks like an actual nose....it's kinda weird. The back looks fantastic IMO. And "Supra" or not, it's probably a car that deserves a real drive. Toyota and BMW are two serious names in the car game, both in regular consumer cars and in motorsport history. It could be that the car is more than the sum of its parts. If all everyone wants is monster power for less than 50k, go American. I don't think BMW or Toyota have ever been the kings of bang for your buck for pure power. IMO, the old supra isn't that pretty either. DarkJak likes this.

01-30-2019, 02:29 PM	#6 (permalink)
JARblue A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Austin, TX Age: 45 Posts: 36,450 Drives: 11 Z34, 98 E36 M3 Rep Power: 2684442	I wouldn't buy one. But I'd put my dìck in the exhaust UNKNOWN_370, Rusty and RicerX like this. __________________ 2011 370Z 6MT Sport Gun Metallic \| ARC \| CJM \| Ecutek \| FI \| Fujimura \| R2C \| SPL \| Stillen \| TWM \| Z1 \| ZSpeed \|

01-31-2019, 09:17 PM	#10 (permalink)
UNKNOWN_370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ny'r livn in tx Posts: 8,687 Drives: well over 130m.p.h. Rep Power: 14860	On paper it's not spectacular but I'm waiting for the behind the wheel experience. This may possibly the most balanced FR out their. The Z is front heavy. If this corners very balanced then we have a winner? If it doesn't? Then let's pray the rx9 or new Z come soon __________________ Favorite Quote. "I'm not gonna kill you... I'm just gonna Bash Your Face In" Jack Nicholson-"The Shining". 1980

01-31-2019, 03:28 PM	#9 (permalink)
Magic Bus A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2012 Location: Honolulu Posts: 1,427 Drives: 17 6MT M2 Rep Power: 18756	Like almost everyone on here, I'm dissapointed that the new Supra is not a Toyota JDM vehicle. However if I was in the market for a hardtop, 2 seater with auto trans, I'd seriously give this car a look. Having purchased a new 2013 sport z and driven it for 5 years and now having purchased a new 2017 BMW M2 18 months ago, this car could be a really fun ride. The Supra will have about the same amount of torque, 50/50 weight distribution as my M2, plus a shorter wheelbase and a lower center of gravity. I won't go into the pros & cons of the M2 vs the Z as I already did that on another post, in this area of the forum. At $50k US, the right to own one of these won't suit everyone, but if you're elegible, the BMW option will cost you $65k + shipping/delivery. So a ToyBMW car maybe a good option. Below is a review which pits the BMW version vs the Porsche 718. https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-re...he-718-cayman/

02-01-2019, 10:13 AM	#11 (permalink)
GraphiteZ Base Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Northern VA Posts: 96 Drives: 05 Elise and 13 GTI Rep Power: 33	The new Supra is Toyota's attempt to put a decent mid-size sports car in the lineup to improve image with minimum effort and cost so that they can sell more TRD Camrys and TRD Avalons. If Toyota really wants to do the new Supra right, it should be a Toyota hardware with BMW tuning, not the other way around. The 1st gen MR2 had Lotus worked on the suspension and Yamaha worked on the 4AGE engine. By the end of the day, a Toyota-tuned BMW that costs like a BMW and requires maintenance like a BMW with no manual transmission option is not appealing to me. I will just get myself a BMW M240i with a manual transmission instead.

02-02-2019, 11:52 AM	#13 (permalink)
DLSTR A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: Süd Germany Posts: 2,462 Drives: 21Supra 2.0/22 M240i Rep Power: 21269	https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...mw-z4-engines/ Why the Toyota Supra Makes Less Power Than the BMW Z4 The engines are nearly equal, but not equal enough.

02-03-2019, 09:13 AM	#14 (permalink)
UNKNOWN_370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ny'r livn in tx Posts: 8,687 Drives: well over 130m.p.h. Rep Power: 14860	Answered questions about how the supra was engineered. https://youtu.be/_jbyzmtgU_0 __________________ Favorite Quote. "I'm not gonna kill you... I'm just gonna Bash Your Face In" Jack Nicholson-"The Shining". 1980

02-04-2019, 10:55 AM	#15 (permalink)
UNKNOWN_370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ny'r livn in tx Posts: 8,687 Drives: well over 130m.p.h. Rep Power: 14860	EXACTLY!!!! IIm glad this video exists so I don't have to write. https://youtu.be/1aoAeB195uo Though this is about Mazda deciding NOT to make a Mazdaspeed 3. It falls in line what this vid is saying. We gotta be happy that somebody even came out with a new sports car that wasn't. muscle. Period! Mazda claims no money for R&D. https://www.autoblog.com/2019/02/04/...o-mazdaspeed3/ __________________ Favorite Quote. "I'm not gonna kill you... I'm just gonna Bash Your Face In" Jack Nicholson-"The Shining". 1980 Last edited by UNKNOWN_370; 02-04-2019 at 12:31 PM.

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