What!!!! No ashtray

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick911sc

Which is why the govt shouldn't be adding the tax on top. It takes that money out of their pocket. It's not like they give the money back if you get cancer.

Who's pocket? The smoker's? Simple - quit smoking. Easy enough fix. Make it cost enough (by taxing it) and people will stop doing it, and the problems caused by it will go away.

The end result is that we're healthier for it, making our healthcare costs go down, which then the money "gained" by taxing won't be nessicary. On the other hand, those that do smoke, end up costing ALL OF US more money by having higher premiums - might as well try and offset it by placing a tax on the items causing the problem.

Zaggeron · 03-25-2010, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Who's pocket? The smoker's? Simple - quit smoking. Easy enough fix. Make it cost enough (by taxing it) and people will stop doing it, and the problems caused by it will go away.

The end result is that we're healthier for it, making our healthcare costs go down, which then the money "gained" by taxing won't be nessicary. On the other hand, those that do smoke, end up costing ALL OF US more money by having higher premiums - might as well try and offset it by placing a tax on the items causing the problem.

Well I for one don't want to be made "healthier" against my will. Oh and get your facts straight. It's a little publicized fact but smokers have lower total health care costs. The average age at which a smoker gets lung cancer is 72 and typically they don't live long enough to have long extended illnesses.

Why stop at cigarettes? Why not tax to extinction or outright outlaw all sorts of risky behavior -- hang gliding ... no way ..the nanny state says people having accidents hang gliding will raise premiums. Like fast cars ... sorry ...fast cars are dangerous. Like your whoppers -- you gotta be kidding ... saturated fat is a mega killer.

It's a slippery slope and it's inconsistent with the notion of individual responsibility for which this country is known.

If they are going to outlaw smoking because the non-smokers are getting annoyed at smelling a little smoke, then they should also outlaw wearing Axe body spray or old lady perfume in public places -- that crap is way more noxious smelling than a bit of stale tobacco smoke

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

If they are going to outlaw smoking because the non-smokers are getting annoyed at smelling a little smoke, then they should also outlaw wearing Axe body spray or old lady perfume in public places -- that crap is way more noxious smelling than a bit of stale tobacco smoke

You deal with perfume scents for mere seconds.

Cigarette smoke lasts for days, weeks, even years.

Zaggeron · 03-25-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

You deal with perfume scents for mere seconds.

Cigarette smoke lasts for days, weeks, even years.

What are you talking about. Smoke actually dissipates rather quickly. Most of what people are complaining about is the odor of tobacco in the area. The odor is not smoke and the odor itself has no harmful effects.

Anyway I don't know why you assume you have to deal with perfume scents for mere seconds ... ever sit in a restaurant behind someone whose perfume made you sick ...or ride the bus next to a kid wearing the cologne of the day. Or stand in line at the bank or DMV in front of someone who had bad tuna salad for lunch.

Stale tobacco funk is not the best smell in the world, but it's not the worst either. People stink for all kinds of reasons. People should just get over it.

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

What are you talking about. Smoke actually dissipates rather quickly. Most of what people are complaining about is the odor of tobacco in the area. The odor is not smoke and the odor itself has no harmful effects.

Anyway I don't know why you assume you have to deal with perfume scents for mere seconds ... ever sit in a restaurant behind someone whose perfume made you sick ...or ride the bus next to a kid wearing the cologne of the day. Or stand in line at the bank or DMV in front of someone who had bad tuna salad for lunch.

Stale tobacco funk is not the best smell in the world, but it's not the worst either. People stink for all kinds of reasons. People should just get over it.

Dissipates? Really? Where does it go?

Are there little cigarette smoke eating monsters in the air that are so small you can't see them, but they eat the smoke and make it magically not stink to hell?

That's like saying that you can fart in an elevator and no one else in the elevator, or who gets in just afterwards, can smell it.

In addition, smoke forms a resin. It stinks. My Dad's 1975 Les Paul Custom, with it's originally white binding...is a very dark amber - not from age, but from cigarette smoke in the 1000's of bars and clubs he played in the late 70's and early 80's.

A guitar amp that's "aged" a bit, will smell like a smoky bar when turned on. Not good - it'll stink up your whole house!

As for your scenario, no, I've not had to deal with it, but then again my sense of smell isn't skewed into thinking cigarette smoke magically disappears and no one can smell the elephant **** in the room.

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

Well I for one don't want to be made "healthier" against my will. Oh and get your facts straight. It's a little publicized fact but smokers have lower total health care costs. The average age at which a smoker gets lung cancer is 72 and typically they don't live long enough to have long extended illnesses.

Why stop at cigarettes? Why not tax to extinction or outright outlaw all sorts of risky behavior -- hang gliding ... no way ..the nanny state says people having accidents hang gliding will raise premiums. Like fast cars ... sorry ...fast cars are dangerous. Like your whoppers -- you gotta be kidding ... saturated fat is a mega killer.

It's a slippery slope and it's inconsistent with the notion of individual responsibility for which this country is known.

If they are going to outlaw smoking because the non-smokers are getting annoyed at smelling a little smoke, then they should also outlaw wearing Axe body spray or old lady perfume in public places -- that crap is way more noxious smelling than a bit of stale tobacco smoke

Also, post your proof they have lower overall healthcare....

Unless you're considering the ones who die quickly after being diagnosed, if they're diagnosed...

*cough cough...must be gettin' a cold...draaaag*

:epicfacepalm:

Zaggeron · 03-25-2010, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Also, post your proof they have lower overall healthcare....

Unless you're considering the ones who die quickly after being diagnosed, if they're diagnosed...

*cough cough...must be gettin' a cold...draaaag*

:epicfacepalm:

How about an article from the New England Journal of Medicine

NEJM -- The Health Care Costs of Smoking

"Conclusions If people stopped smoking, there would be a savings in health care costs, but only in the short term. Eventually, smoking cessation would lead to increased health care costs."

I'm just doing my part to save your tax dollars...

dalparadise · 03-25-2010, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

How about an article from the New England Journal of Medicine

NEJM -- The Health Care Costs of Smoking

"Conclusions If people stopped smoking, there would be a savings in health care costs, but only in the short term. Eventually, smoking cessation would lead to increased health care costs."

I'm just doing my part to save your tax dollars...

In a convertible, the world is your ashtray.

Zaggeron · 03-25-2010, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalparadise

In a convertible, the world is your ashtray.

lol....

Seriously ... please don't litter, wash your hands after going to the bathroom, and call your mother every once in a while

dalparadise · 03-25-2010, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

lol....

Seriously ... please don't litter, wash your hands after going to the bathroom, and call your mother every once in a while

Yeah, I don't smoke or litter. I always wash my hands and have remembered to call my mom 5 of her last 8 birthdays.

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

How about an article from the New England Journal of Medicine

NEJM -- The Health Care Costs of Smoking

"Conclusions If people stopped smoking, there would be a savings in health care costs, but only in the short term. Eventually, smoking cessation would lead to increased health care costs."

I'm just doing my part to save your tax dollars...

perhaps because people would be living longer...

Lets kill all the felons to save money on prison costs...same logic, right? Less prisoners in prison, therefore it'll cost less!

Also, in the discussion part of the article, they are disclaiming a "related diseases" and the care involved in correcting those issues. They're just looking at people who smoke, vs people who don't smoke, where as smoke is the direct cause of the doctors visit.

That's like saying people who have HIV aren't sick, because AIDS is a side effect and shouldn't be counted, therefore HIV isn't bad.

Nick911sc · 03-25-2010, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

perhaps because people would be living longer...

Lets kill all the felons to save money on prison costs.

Some people might advocate that. Considering it costs about $60k a year per inmate. lol

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick911sc

Some people might advocate that. Considering it costs about $60k a year per inmate. lol

Strange how that works - people can live on 25K/yr in the "free" world, yet it costs $60K to house an inmate...

Just ship them to Etheopia, where $1/day can feed a family of 32 and ensure this (poster) child can have clean water and go to school.

I saw it on a commercial - lol.

Zaggeron · 03-25-2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

perhaps because people would be living longer...

Lets kill all the felons to save money on prison costs...same logic, right? Less prisoners in prison, therefore it'll cost less!

Also, in the discussion part of the article, they are disclaiming a "related diseases" and the care involved in correcting those issues. They're just looking at people who smoke, vs people who don't smoke, where as smoke is the direct cause of the doctors visit.

That's like saying people who have HIV aren't sick, because AIDS is a side effect and shouldn't be counted, therefore HIV isn't bad.

I am not advocating any of that. I was simply responding to your unsubstantiated claim that smoking causes increased medical costs. I stated it doesn't and provided some evidence for my claim.

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

I am not advocating any of that. I was simply responding to your unsubstantiated claim that smoking causes increased medical costs. I stated it doesn't and provided some evidence for my claim.

No offense, but the evidence you provided has a lot of holes in it.

Four words in a very related argument where both sides prop up articles that have more holes than the Ozone Layer:

Man Made Global Warming