Anyone here into firearms?

m4a1mustang · 01-01-2012, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacCool

Yes. Would gun control have prevented that increase? Does that increase have anything to do with the increase in the number of concealed/carry permits across the US?

Whether gun control has anything to do with that at all the media will likely spin it against us... there's no one to stop them from doing so.

Do you remember that story ABC News did years ago to discredit concealed carry? They argued it was dangerous because it put guns in the hands of inexperienced people. To prove it, they took a sample of college students and set them up to fail. Tried to teach them to shoot in less than a day, then gave them a holster and a blank firing pistol and had them sit in class. They then would send a "gunman" into the classroom and watch as the kids 1) took forever to figure out what was going on and 2) fumbled around all of their crap to draw their pistol.

It was laughable to people like us that actually have a clue... but unfortunately they can pull those stunts off because the majority of the uninformed public is... well... uninformed and gullible.

MacCool · 01-01-2012, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Whether gun control has anything to do with that at all the media will likely spin it against us... there's no one to stop them from doing so.

Do you remember that story ABC News did years ago to discredit concealed carry? They argued it was dangerous because it put guns in the hands of inexperienced people. To prove it, they took a sample of college students and set them up to fail. Tried to teach them to shoot in less than a day, then gave them a holster and a blank firing pistol and had them sit in class. They then would send a "gunman" into the classroom and watch as the kids 1) took forever to figure out what was going on and 2) fumbled around all of their crap to draw their pistol.

It was laughable to people like us that actually have a clue... but unfortunately they can pull those stunts off because the majority of the uninformed public is... well... uninformed and gullible.

In our society, we have become so civilized, mostly, that people don't need to walk around watching for threats and being prepared to react to them. For the vast majority, there just aren't any. The outcome of the show you mention was utterly predictable but only represents one, narrowly controlled, scenario. Furthermore, IMHO the important take-home point was that, although possessing the firearm didn't save their lives, they didn't hurt anybody with it either. So, apparently carrying a firearm is not a universal solution to staged active-shooter scenarios involving an experienced firearms handler and newbie college students in an auditorium, but it poses no risk to the rest of society either.

m4a1mustang · 01-01-2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacCool

In our society, we have become so civilized, mostly, that people don't need to walk around watching for threats and being prepared to react to them. For the vast majority, there just aren't any. The outcome of the show you mention was utterly predictable but only represents one, narrowly controlled, scenario. Furthermore, IMHO the important take-home point was that, although possessing the firearm didn't save their lives, they didn't hurt anybody with it either. So, apparently carrying a firearm is not a universal solution to staged active-shooter scenarios involving an experienced firearms handler and newbie college students in an auditorium, but it poses no risk to the rest of society either.

That's definitely an important point. Most of the anti-gun or the generally uninformed public tends to believe it's the gun itself that's doing all of the damage because that's what media and to an extent the government trains them to believe. I constantly have to remind skeptical friends that, unless it's by my doing, the Glock 26 in my holster is not going to jump out and start shooting at people.

Guns are safe in the hands of the responsible citizen. Instead of blaming the tool we need to be more productive as a society and blame the user...

ImportConvert · 01-01-2012, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

That's definitely an important point. Most of the anti-gun or the generally uninformed public tends to believe it's the gun itself that's doing all of the damage because that's what media and to an extent the government trains them to believe. I constantly have to remind skeptical friends that, unless it's by my doing, the Glock 26 in my holster is not going to jump out and start shooting at people.

Guns are safe in the hands of the responsible citizen. Instead of blaming the tool we need to be more productive as a society and blame the user...

+1

I never understood this mentality that some people have in that regard.

ImportConvert · 01-01-2012, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Whether gun control has anything to do with that at all the media will likely spin it against us... there's no one to stop them from doing so.

Do you remember that story ABC News did years ago to discredit concealed carry? They argued it was dangerous because it put guns in the hands of inexperienced people. To prove it, they took a sample of college students and set them up to fail. Tried to teach them to shoot in less than a day, then gave them a holster and a blank firing pistol and had them sit in class. They then would send a "gunman" into the classroom and watch as the kids 1) took forever to figure out what was going on and 2) fumbled around all of their crap to draw their pistol.

It was laughable to people like us that actually have a clue... but unfortunately they can pull those stunts off because the majority of the uninformed public is... well... uninformed and gullible.

Cool. I think cars are bad. To prove it, I am going to take a bunch of 17 year-olds who have not been to driver's ed, and give them 8 hours at Spring Mountain. Then they will compete in the Petit Le Mans.

Predictions?

m4a1mustang · 01-01-2012, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

Cool. I think cars are bad. To prove it, I am going to take a bunch of 17 year-olds who have not been to driver's ed, and give them 8 hours at Spring Mountain. Then they will compete in the Petit Le Mans.

Predictions?

Record for most safety car periods in the race.

MacCool · 01-01-2012, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

Cool. I think cars are bad. To prove it, I am going to take a bunch of 17 year-olds who have not been to driver's ed, and give them 8 hours at Spring Mountain. Then they will compete in the Petit Le Mans.

Predictions?

I think this is a particularly apt analogy. Thanks.

BlackZeda · 01-01-2012, 01:36 PM

So crime rates have been dropping despite our horrible economy, and I think it is valid to not singularly point to gun ownership/concealed carry as the cause. BUT...I think it is large factor, and you better believe that politicians and news media people of a certain ilk would directly blame gun ownership/concealed carry if crime rates went up (not even acknowleding that crime goes up in a bad economy in the first place). Their lust for limiting people's freedom, thus gaining more power for themselves knows no bounds and can't be constrained by reason.

I would also like to point out a couple other things that may be in play with the declining crime rates:

To Obama and Holder's credit, they have to some extent, essentially decriminalized the possesion and distribution of marijuana. That in combination with the quasi-legalization of pot in several states (proud to say that Colorado has been a rational leader) has decoupled the most popular recreational drug activity from the much more nefarious activites of the "hard" drugs. Disclaimer: I am not a marijuana user, but have used it in the past. I am on the other hand a libertarian and wish to see all drugs decriminalized and regulated.

It is a shame that Obama has created a massive welfare state and has expanded government to unacceptable levels IMO. This seems to have lessened the impact that the bad economy has had on crime. Unfortunately this may have terrible consequences in the future as it will limit the opportunity for future generations to be properous, therefore not resort to crime. God forbid we have another economic downturn where we can't print money and artifically prop up th economy to get us through. Hopefully I am wrong...

So there is a whole lot of correlation for ya'

BlackZeda · 01-02-2012, 12:02 PM

I wanted to get some opinions about two models of H&Ks. I will be using it for a concealed carry firearm and most likely get an IWB holster. The two models I am considering are the P30 and the P2000SK. Right now I am favoring the P2000SK since it is about a half inch shorter.

Which one would your recommend?

MacCool · 01-02-2012, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackZeda

I wanted to get some opinions about two models of H&Ks. I will be using it for a concealed carry firearm and most likely get an IWB holster. The two models I am considering are the P30 and the P2000SK. Right now I am favoring the P2000SK since it is about a half inch shorter.

Which one would your recommend?

Between those two, for concealed carry, I'd get the P2000SK. Its form factor makes it more suitable for that purpose. It's important that you actually handle both the P2000SK and the P30 though...there's a significant difference in the grip ergonomics. Some people like one and hate the other, and vice-versa. Personally, I prefer the P30's grip, but for concealed carry (which I rarely do) I went with the much smaller and thinner Walther PPS in 9mm. I didn't care for the Glock 26, nor the M&P 9c...grip was too fat and too short for me to be comfortable with.

BlackZeda · 01-02-2012, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacCool

Between those two, for concealed carry, I'd get the P2000SK. Its form factor makes it more suitable for that purpose. It's important that you actually handle both the P2000SK and the P30 though...there's a significant difference in the grip ergonomics. Some people like one and hate the other, and vice-versa. Personally, I prefer the P30's grip, but for concealed carry (which I rarely do) I went with the much smaller and thinner Walther PPS in 9mm. I didn't care for the Glock 26, nor the M&P 9c...grip was too fat and too short for me to be comfortable with.

Unfortunately it seems that no one around town has P30s in stock, and the grip options are really appealing. On the other hand I have found a couple P2000SKs for really good prices around town, so I am at least going to check them out. I understand that the P2000SK does have adjustable grip options as well (which it at least has that on a Glock).

Since it is so small and I have a second concealed carry class this weekend (and I don't hate it) I might just pick it up today. I love my Full size USP .45 and .40SW and am planning on picking up a HK45 sometime this year, so I don't think it would be a bad move to get the P2000SK in any case as you can see I am a big fan of H&Ks!

Thanks for the feedback fellas...I will let you know how it turns out!

MacCool · 01-02-2012, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackZeda

Unfortunately it seems that no one around town has P30s in stock, and the grip options are really appealing. On the other hand I have found a couple P2000SKs for really good prices around town, so I am at least going to check them out. I understand that the P2000SK does have adjustable grip options as well (which it at least has that on a Glock).

Since it is so small and I have a second concealed carry class this weekend (and I don't hate it) I might just pick it up today. I love my Full size USP .45 and .40SW and am planning on picking up a HK45 sometime this year, so I don't think it would be a bad move to get the P2000SK in any case as you can see I am a big fan of H&Ks!

Thanks for the feedback fellas...I will let you know how it turns out!

If you're comfortable with the grip, the P2000SK is a good pistol and will serve you well. Try to avoid the LEM trigger option. One tip, get plenty of magazines. They're notorious for being expensive and hard to get, and may get more so as the presidential election heats up if it looks like BO is getting the edge. Some of their earlier magazines had spring problems. IIRC, you can use USP mags, although they stick out at the bottom.

nuTinmuch · 01-04-2012, 12:25 AM

Quote:

I would also like to point out a couple other things that may be in play with the declining crime rates:

I don't think so. I think the real reasons won't be revealed for another decade or two, at the very least. History isn't the same as journalism, and until we are politically disconnected from the era, it'll all be seen through a red/blue perspective.

Also, as the resident hyper-liberal, I have to bite my tongue to comply with the forum rules.

ImportConvert · 01-04-2012, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuTinmuch

I don't think so. I think the real reasons won't be revealed for another decade or two, at the very least. History isn't the same as journalism, and until we are politically disconnected from the era, it'll all be seen through a red/blue perspective.

Also, as the resident hyper-liberal, I have to bite my tongue to comply with the forum rules.

At least you seem to be a liberal with some brains. *logic defied*

MacCool · 01-04-2012, 03:44 PM

Just picked this rifle up. Kind of a whim purchase...the more I read about .17HMR, the more intrigued I became. Got a Muskrat problem in the non-winter months and have to be careful of ricochets off the water. And my buddy has a pack of coyotes and probably at least one wolf harassing his horses. Can't shoot the wolves, of course

but once I get this new .17HMR Henry scoped, we're going to get out the squealing fawn call and the electronic rabbit and solve the problem.

This thing has one of the best out-of-the-box triggers I've ever seen on a factory rifle. It's a nice piece of work.

01-01-2012, 01:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
BlackZeda A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 1,109 Drives: 19 Audi TT RS Rep Power: 23	Crime drop due to lax marijuana enforcement? So crime rates have been dropping despite our horrible economy, and I think it is valid to not singularly point to gun ownership/concealed carry as the cause. BUT...I think it is large factor, and you better believe that politicians and news media people of a certain ilk would directly blame gun ownership/concealed carry if crime rates went up (not even acknowleding that crime goes up in a bad economy in the first place). Their lust for limiting people's freedom, thus gaining more power for themselves knows no bounds and can't be constrained by reason. I would also like to point out a couple other things that may be in play with the declining crime rates: To Obama and Holder's credit, they have to some extent, essentially decriminalized the possesion and distribution of marijuana. That in combination with the quasi-legalization of pot in several states (proud to say that Colorado has been a rational leader) has decoupled the most popular recreational drug activity from the much more nefarious activites of the "hard" drugs. Disclaimer: I am not a marijuana user, but have used it in the past. I am on the other hand a libertarian and wish to see all drugs decriminalized and regulated. It is a shame that Obama has created a massive welfare state and has expanded government to unacceptable levels IMO. This seems to have lessened the impact that the bad economy has had on crime. Unfortunately this may have terrible consequences in the future as it will limit the opportunity for future generations to be properous, therefore not resort to crime. God forbid we have another economic downturn where we can't print money and artifically prop up th economy to get us through. Hopefully I am wrong... So there is a whole lot of correlation for ya'

01-02-2012, 12:02 PM	#9 (permalink)
BlackZeda A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 1,109 Drives: 19 Audi TT RS Rep Power: 23	H&K P2000SK or P30 for concealed carry? I wanted to get some opinions about two models of H&Ks. I will be using it for a concealed carry firearm and most likely get an IWB holster. The two models I am considering are the P30 and the P2000SK. Right now I am favoring the P2000SK since it is about a half inch shorter. Which one would your recommend?

01-04-2012, 03:44 PM	#15 (permalink)
MacCool A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Midwest Posts: 1,349 Drives: 370Z PW 2014 Rep Power: 18	Just picked this rifle up. Kind of a whim purchase...the more I read about .17HMR, the more intrigued I became. Got a Muskrat problem in the non-winter months and have to be careful of ricochets off the water. And my buddy has a pack of coyotes and probably at least one wolf harassing his horses. Can't shoot the wolves, of course but once I get this new .17HMR Henry scoped, we're going to get out the squealing fawn call and the electronic rabbit and solve the problem. This thing has one of the best out-of-the-box triggers I've ever seen on a factory rifle. It's a nice piece of work.