Anyone here into firearms?

wstar · 12-29-2011, 10:44 AM

Correlation != Causation regardless. Just about any time you see a statistical correlation used in an argument (especially in the news), there's no proof of causal link. It could as easily be that lower crime rates paradoxically cause an increase in the sales of guns by some social/psychological effect nobody's thought of. Or it could be that the average temperature rose 0.03 degrees during that timeframe, and rising temperatures cause both a drop in crime and an independent increase in gun sales. Or it could be random chance.

There are many more sound arguments for gun ownership than dubious crime stats correlations.

nuTinmuch · 12-29-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Just think, how would YOU behave if you knew nearly everyone had a firearm on their person? Would you cut people off in traffic as often? Yell at someone for taking too long at some task? It would make our society much more polite, I believe.

I don't think it would really matter.

After all, if everyone carries a gun, then isn't the playing field even?

ImportConvert · 12-29-2011, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuTinmuch

I don't think it would really matter.

After all, if everyone carries a gun, then isn't the playing field even?

Higher stakes. Things would not be the same.

nuTinmuch · 12-29-2011, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

Higher stakes. Things would not be the same.

Higher stakes than 3-ton automobiles being tossed at each other?

ImportConvert · 01-01-2012, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuTinmuch

Higher stakes than 3-ton automobiles being tossed at each other?

Mentally, yes. People fear being shot more than having their car rammed.

MacCool · 12-29-2011, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Correlation != Causation regardless. Just about any time you see a statistical correlation used in an argument (especially in the news), there's no proof of causal link. It could as easily be that lower crime rates paradoxically cause an increase in the sales of guns by some social/psychological effect nobody's thought of. Or it could be that the average temperature rose 0.03 degrees during that timeframe, and rising temperatures cause both a drop in crime and an independent increase in gun sales. Or it could be random chance.

There are many more sound arguments for gun ownership than dubious crime stats correlations.

It's true that there's no proof of causation. The 47% decrease in violent crime rate since 1991 might be related to other factors than the 90 million increase in guns owned during that same period. No way to know.

OTOH, what we have NOT seen in an increase in violent crime associated with increased gun ownership, including over the last 8 years for so as states have had massive increases in handgun carry permits issued.

tvfreakazoid · 01-01-2012, 05:17 AM

I read in the paper today that police officers killed with guns increased compared to last year. Not by much. I thought i throw that out there.

SgtGoldy · 01-01-2012, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

I read in the paper today that police officers killed with guns increased compared to last year. Not by much. I thought i throw that out there.

*sigh* sad thing to hear...

MacCool · 01-01-2012, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

I read in the paper today that police officers killed with guns increased compared to last year. Not by much. I thought i throw that out there.

Yes. Would gun control have prevented that increase? Does that increase have anything to do with the increase in the number of concealed/carry permits across the US?

m4a1mustang · 01-01-2012, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacCool

Yes. Would gun control have prevented that increase? Does that increase have anything to do with the increase in the number of concealed/carry permits across the US?

Whether gun control has anything to do with that at all the media will likely spin it against us... there's no one to stop them from doing so.

Do you remember that story ABC News did years ago to discredit concealed carry? They argued it was dangerous because it put guns in the hands of inexperienced people. To prove it, they took a sample of college students and set them up to fail. Tried to teach them to shoot in less than a day, then gave them a holster and a blank firing pistol and had them sit in class. They then would send a "gunman" into the classroom and watch as the kids 1) took forever to figure out what was going on and 2) fumbled around all of their crap to draw their pistol.

It was laughable to people like us that actually have a clue... but unfortunately they can pull those stunts off because the majority of the uninformed public is... well... uninformed and gullible.

MacCool · 01-01-2012, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Whether gun control has anything to do with that at all the media will likely spin it against us... there's no one to stop them from doing so.

Do you remember that story ABC News did years ago to discredit concealed carry? They argued it was dangerous because it put guns in the hands of inexperienced people. To prove it, they took a sample of college students and set them up to fail. Tried to teach them to shoot in less than a day, then gave them a holster and a blank firing pistol and had them sit in class. They then would send a "gunman" into the classroom and watch as the kids 1) took forever to figure out what was going on and 2) fumbled around all of their crap to draw their pistol.

It was laughable to people like us that actually have a clue... but unfortunately they can pull those stunts off because the majority of the uninformed public is... well... uninformed and gullible.

In our society, we have become so civilized, mostly, that people don't need to walk around watching for threats and being prepared to react to them. For the vast majority, there just aren't any. The outcome of the show you mention was utterly predictable but only represents one, narrowly controlled, scenario. Furthermore, IMHO the important take-home point was that, although possessing the firearm didn't save their lives, they didn't hurt anybody with it either. So, apparently carrying a firearm is not a universal solution to staged active-shooter scenarios involving an experienced firearms handler and newbie college students in an auditorium, but it poses no risk to the rest of society either.

m4a1mustang · 01-01-2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacCool

In our society, we have become so civilized, mostly, that people don't need to walk around watching for threats and being prepared to react to them. For the vast majority, there just aren't any. The outcome of the show you mention was utterly predictable but only represents one, narrowly controlled, scenario. Furthermore, IMHO the important take-home point was that, although possessing the firearm didn't save their lives, they didn't hurt anybody with it either. So, apparently carrying a firearm is not a universal solution to staged active-shooter scenarios involving an experienced firearms handler and newbie college students in an auditorium, but it poses no risk to the rest of society either.

That's definitely an important point. Most of the anti-gun or the generally uninformed public tends to believe it's the gun itself that's doing all of the damage because that's what media and to an extent the government trains them to believe. I constantly have to remind skeptical friends that, unless it's by my doing, the Glock 26 in my holster is not going to jump out and start shooting at people.

Guns are safe in the hands of the responsible citizen. Instead of blaming the tool we need to be more productive as a society and blame the user...

ImportConvert · 01-01-2012, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Whether gun control has anything to do with that at all the media will likely spin it against us... there's no one to stop them from doing so.

Do you remember that story ABC News did years ago to discredit concealed carry? They argued it was dangerous because it put guns in the hands of inexperienced people. To prove it, they took a sample of college students and set them up to fail. Tried to teach them to shoot in less than a day, then gave them a holster and a blank firing pistol and had them sit in class. They then would send a "gunman" into the classroom and watch as the kids 1) took forever to figure out what was going on and 2) fumbled around all of their crap to draw their pistol.

It was laughable to people like us that actually have a clue... but unfortunately they can pull those stunts off because the majority of the uninformed public is... well... uninformed and gullible.

Cool. I think cars are bad. To prove it, I am going to take a bunch of 17 year-olds who have not been to driver's ed, and give them 8 hours at Spring Mountain. Then they will compete in the Petit Le Mans.

Predictions?

m4a1mustang · 01-01-2012, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

Cool. I think cars are bad. To prove it, I am going to take a bunch of 17 year-olds who have not been to driver's ed, and give them 8 hours at Spring Mountain. Then they will compete in the Petit Le Mans.

Predictions?

Record for most safety car periods in the race.

MacCool · 01-01-2012, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

Cool. I think cars are bad. To prove it, I am going to take a bunch of 17 year-olds who have not been to driver's ed, and give them 8 hours at Spring Mountain. Then they will compete in the Petit Le Mans.

Predictions?

I think this is a particularly apt analogy. Thanks.

12-29-2011, 10:44 AM	#1 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3596	Correlation != Causation regardless. Just about any time you see a statistical correlation used in an argument (especially in the news), there's no proof of causal link. It could as easily be that lower crime rates paradoxically cause an increase in the sales of guns by some social/psychological effect nobody's thought of. Or it could be that the average temperature rose 0.03 degrees during that timeframe, and rising temperatures cause both a drop in crime and an independent increase in gun sales. Or it could be random chance. There are many more sound arguments for gun ownership than dubious crime stats correlations. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

01-01-2012, 05:17 AM	#7 (permalink)
tvfreakazoid A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: kommie kali Posts: 1,238 Drives: 2015 Audi S5; 6spd. Rep Power: 10326	I read in the paper today that police officers killed with guns increased compared to last year. Not by much. I thought i throw that out there. __________________ Mudders milk