Anyone here into firearms?

MacCool · 01-01-2012, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Whether gun control has anything to do with that at all the media will likely spin it against us... there's no one to stop them from doing so.

Do you remember that story ABC News did years ago to discredit concealed carry? They argued it was dangerous because it put guns in the hands of inexperienced people. To prove it, they took a sample of college students and set them up to fail. Tried to teach them to shoot in less than a day, then gave them a holster and a blank firing pistol and had them sit in class. They then would send a "gunman" into the classroom and watch as the kids 1) took forever to figure out what was going on and 2) fumbled around all of their crap to draw their pistol.

It was laughable to people like us that actually have a clue... but unfortunately they can pull those stunts off because the majority of the uninformed public is... well... uninformed and gullible.

In our society, we have become so civilized, mostly, that people don't need to walk around watching for threats and being prepared to react to them. For the vast majority, there just aren't any. The outcome of the show you mention was utterly predictable but only represents one, narrowly controlled, scenario. Furthermore, IMHO the important take-home point was that, although possessing the firearm didn't save their lives, they didn't hurt anybody with it either. So, apparently carrying a firearm is not a universal solution to staged active-shooter scenarios involving an experienced firearms handler and newbie college students in an auditorium, but it poses no risk to the rest of society either.

m4a1mustang · 01-01-2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacCool

In our society, we have become so civilized, mostly, that people don't need to walk around watching for threats and being prepared to react to them. For the vast majority, there just aren't any. The outcome of the show you mention was utterly predictable but only represents one, narrowly controlled, scenario. Furthermore, IMHO the important take-home point was that, although possessing the firearm didn't save their lives, they didn't hurt anybody with it either. So, apparently carrying a firearm is not a universal solution to staged active-shooter scenarios involving an experienced firearms handler and newbie college students in an auditorium, but it poses no risk to the rest of society either.

That's definitely an important point. Most of the anti-gun or the generally uninformed public tends to believe it's the gun itself that's doing all of the damage because that's what media and to an extent the government trains them to believe. I constantly have to remind skeptical friends that, unless it's by my doing, the Glock 26 in my holster is not going to jump out and start shooting at people.

Guns are safe in the hands of the responsible citizen. Instead of blaming the tool we need to be more productive as a society and blame the user...

ImportConvert · 01-01-2012, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuTinmuch

Higher stakes than 3-ton automobiles being tossed at each other?

Mentally, yes. People fear being shot more than having their car rammed.

ImportConvert · 01-01-2012, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

That's definitely an important point. Most of the anti-gun or the generally uninformed public tends to believe it's the gun itself that's doing all of the damage because that's what media and to an extent the government trains them to believe. I constantly have to remind skeptical friends that, unless it's by my doing, the Glock 26 in my holster is not going to jump out and start shooting at people.

Guns are safe in the hands of the responsible citizen. Instead of blaming the tool we need to be more productive as a society and blame the user...

+1

I never understood this mentality that some people have in that regard.

ImportConvert · 01-01-2012, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Whether gun control has anything to do with that at all the media will likely spin it against us... there's no one to stop them from doing so.

Do you remember that story ABC News did years ago to discredit concealed carry? They argued it was dangerous because it put guns in the hands of inexperienced people. To prove it, they took a sample of college students and set them up to fail. Tried to teach them to shoot in less than a day, then gave them a holster and a blank firing pistol and had them sit in class. They then would send a "gunman" into the classroom and watch as the kids 1) took forever to figure out what was going on and 2) fumbled around all of their crap to draw their pistol.

It was laughable to people like us that actually have a clue... but unfortunately they can pull those stunts off because the majority of the uninformed public is... well... uninformed and gullible.

Cool. I think cars are bad. To prove it, I am going to take a bunch of 17 year-olds who have not been to driver's ed, and give them 8 hours at Spring Mountain. Then they will compete in the Petit Le Mans.

Predictions?

m4a1mustang · 01-01-2012, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

Cool. I think cars are bad. To prove it, I am going to take a bunch of 17 year-olds who have not been to driver's ed, and give them 8 hours at Spring Mountain. Then they will compete in the Petit Le Mans.

Predictions?

Record for most safety car periods in the race.

MacCool · 01-01-2012, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

Cool. I think cars are bad. To prove it, I am going to take a bunch of 17 year-olds who have not been to driver's ed, and give them 8 hours at Spring Mountain. Then they will compete in the Petit Le Mans.

Predictions?

I think this is a particularly apt analogy. Thanks.

BlackZeda · 01-01-2012, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

I read in the paper today that police officers killed with guns increased compared to last year. Not by much. I thought i throw that out there.

It is important to keep in mind that the main customer of the police is the public, and to be specific the subset of the public that would tend to be more willing to use their weapon against them.

BlackZeda · 01-01-2012, 01:36 PM

So crime rates have been dropping despite our horrible economy, and I think it is valid to not singularly point to gun ownership/concealed carry as the cause. BUT...I think it is large factor, and you better believe that politicians and news media people of a certain ilk would directly blame gun ownership/concealed carry if crime rates went up (not even acknowleding that crime goes up in a bad economy in the first place). Their lust for limiting people's freedom, thus gaining more power for themselves knows no bounds and can't be constrained by reason.

I would also like to point out a couple other things that may be in play with the declining crime rates:

To Obama and Holder's credit, they have to some extent, essentially decriminalized the possesion and distribution of marijuana. That in combination with the quasi-legalization of pot in several states (proud to say that Colorado has been a rational leader) has decoupled the most popular recreational drug activity from the much more nefarious activites of the "hard" drugs. Disclaimer: I am not a marijuana user, but have used it in the past. I am on the other hand a libertarian and wish to see all drugs decriminalized and regulated.

It is a shame that Obama has created a massive welfare state and has expanded government to unacceptable levels IMO. This seems to have lessened the impact that the bad economy has had on crime. Unfortunately this may have terrible consequences in the future as it will limit the opportunity for future generations to be properous, therefore not resort to crime. God forbid we have another economic downturn where we can't print money and artifically prop up th economy to get us through. Hopefully I am wrong...

So there is a whole lot of correlation for ya'

BlackZeda · 01-02-2012, 12:02 PM

I wanted to get some opinions about two models of H&Ks. I will be using it for a concealed carry firearm and most likely get an IWB holster. The two models I am considering are the P30 and the P2000SK. Right now I am favoring the P2000SK since it is about a half inch shorter.

Which one would your recommend?

m4a1mustang · 01-02-2012, 12:04 PM

Hey BZ, I replied to your PM. I don't own the P2000SK but I have some experience with it and really like it. If I didn't like my Glock 26 so much I might have bought one of those. Unfortunately I don't have any experience with the P30 so I can't compare.

MacCool · 01-02-2012, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackZeda

I wanted to get some opinions about two models of H&Ks. I will be using it for a concealed carry firearm and most likely get an IWB holster. The two models I am considering are the P30 and the P2000SK. Right now I am favoring the P2000SK since it is about a half inch shorter.

Which one would your recommend?

Between those two, for concealed carry, I'd get the P2000SK. Its form factor makes it more suitable for that purpose. It's important that you actually handle both the P2000SK and the P30 though...there's a significant difference in the grip ergonomics. Some people like one and hate the other, and vice-versa. Personally, I prefer the P30's grip, but for concealed carry (which I rarely do) I went with the much smaller and thinner Walther PPS in 9mm. I didn't care for the Glock 26, nor the M&P 9c...grip was too fat and too short for me to be comfortable with.

BlackZeda · 01-02-2012, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacCool

Between those two, for concealed carry, I'd get the P2000SK. Its form factor makes it more suitable for that purpose. It's important that you actually handle both the P2000SK and the P30 though...there's a significant difference in the grip ergonomics. Some people like one and hate the other, and vice-versa. Personally, I prefer the P30's grip, but for concealed carry (which I rarely do) I went with the much smaller and thinner Walther PPS in 9mm. I didn't care for the Glock 26, nor the M&P 9c...grip was too fat and too short for me to be comfortable with.

Unfortunately it seems that no one around town has P30s in stock, and the grip options are really appealing. On the other hand I have found a couple P2000SKs for really good prices around town, so I am at least going to check them out. I understand that the P2000SK does have adjustable grip options as well (which it at least has that on a Glock).

Since it is so small and I have a second concealed carry class this weekend (and I don't hate it) I might just pick it up today. I love my Full size USP .45 and .40SW and am planning on picking up a HK45 sometime this year, so I don't think it would be a bad move to get the P2000SK in any case as you can see I am a big fan of H&Ks!

Thanks for the feedback fellas...I will let you know how it turns out!

MacCool · 01-02-2012, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackZeda

Unfortunately it seems that no one around town has P30s in stock, and the grip options are really appealing. On the other hand I have found a couple P2000SKs for really good prices around town, so I am at least going to check them out. I understand that the P2000SK does have adjustable grip options as well (which it at least has that on a Glock).

Since it is so small and I have a second concealed carry class this weekend (and I don't hate it) I might just pick it up today. I love my Full size USP .45 and .40SW and am planning on picking up a HK45 sometime this year, so I don't think it would be a bad move to get the P2000SK in any case as you can see I am a big fan of H&Ks!

Thanks for the feedback fellas...I will let you know how it turns out!

If you're comfortable with the grip, the P2000SK is a good pistol and will serve you well. Try to avoid the LEM trigger option. One tip, get plenty of magazines. They're notorious for being expensive and hard to get, and may get more so as the presidential election heats up if it looks like BO is getting the edge. Some of their earlier magazines had spring problems. IIRC, you can use USP mags, although they stick out at the bottom.

BlackZeda · 01-03-2012, 07:38 PM

So something interesting happened at the gun store. I decided I couldn't part my my H&K USP .40SW which oddly gave me the-skys-the-limit attitude

There was a used .40SW LEM P2000SK for $629 and a new .40SW DA/SA P2000SK for $829. Didn't like the LEM version at all and then I saw the HK45C! OMG, what a beautiful piece of ballistic art...I almost bought it right there even though it was $1039. Resisting the urge to make an impulse purchase I decided to wait till tomorrow and sleep on it as it is about the same size as a Glock compact.

When walking out I noticed that in the 9mm case there was a used DA/SA P2000SK which looked like it was in really good condition for only $600. I have wanted to own a 9mm for a really long time so it was almost a no brainer. So here she is with another picture of my little H&K family.

I am pretty psyched by the purchase and I really like how it sits in my hand after comparing it to a Glock. H&Ks seem to be a bit more "upright" like a 1911. A Glock almost sits like a revolver to me, which I would get used to...not a criticism. It looks like I will be getting an HK45 sometime in the near future.

Thanks for all the input and enjoy the pics!

01-01-2012, 01:36 PM	#1599 (permalink)
BlackZeda A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 1,109 Drives: 19 Audi TT RS Rep Power: 21	Crime drop due to lax marijuana enforcement? So crime rates have been dropping despite our horrible economy, and I think it is valid to not singularly point to gun ownership/concealed carry as the cause. BUT...I think it is large factor, and you better believe that politicians and news media people of a certain ilk would directly blame gun ownership/concealed carry if crime rates went up (not even acknowleding that crime goes up in a bad economy in the first place). Their lust for limiting people's freedom, thus gaining more power for themselves knows no bounds and can't be constrained by reason. I would also like to point out a couple other things that may be in play with the declining crime rates: To Obama and Holder's credit, they have to some extent, essentially decriminalized the possesion and distribution of marijuana. That in combination with the quasi-legalization of pot in several states (proud to say that Colorado has been a rational leader) has decoupled the most popular recreational drug activity from the much more nefarious activites of the "hard" drugs. Disclaimer: I am not a marijuana user, but have used it in the past. I am on the other hand a libertarian and wish to see all drugs decriminalized and regulated. It is a shame that Obama has created a massive welfare state and has expanded government to unacceptable levels IMO. This seems to have lessened the impact that the bad economy has had on crime. Unfortunately this may have terrible consequences in the future as it will limit the opportunity for future generations to be properous, therefore not resort to crime. God forbid we have another economic downturn where we can't print money and artifically prop up th economy to get us through. Hopefully I am wrong... So there is a whole lot of correlation for ya'

01-02-2012, 12:02 PM	#1600 (permalink)
BlackZeda A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 1,109 Drives: 19 Audi TT RS Rep Power: 21	H&K P2000SK or P30 for concealed carry? I wanted to get some opinions about two models of H&Ks. I will be using it for a concealed carry firearm and most likely get an IWB holster. The two models I am considering are the P30 and the P2000SK. Right now I am favoring the P2000SK since it is about a half inch shorter. Which one would your recommend?

01-02-2012, 12:04 PM	#1601 (permalink)
m4a1mustang A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 55,385 Drives: on two wheels Rep Power: 6962	Hey BZ, I replied to your PM. I don't own the P2000SK but I have some experience with it and really like it. If I didn't like my Glock 26 so much I might have bought one of those. Unfortunately I don't have any experience with the P30 so I can't compare. __________________ - Steve Zs & Coffee - Saturdays at 10AM in Fairfax, VA and Columbia, MD (Click the banner!) LIKE us on Facebook!

01-03-2012, 07:38 PM	#1605 (permalink)
BlackZeda A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 1,109 Drives: 19 Audi TT RS Rep Power: 21	So something interesting happened at the gun store. I decided I couldn't part my my H&K USP .40SW which oddly gave me the-skys-the-limit attitude There was a used .40SW LEM P2000SK for $629 and a new .40SW DA/SA P2000SK for $829. Didn't like the LEM version at all and then I saw the HK45C! OMG, what a beautiful piece of ballistic art...I almost bought it right there even though it was $1039. Resisting the urge to make an impulse purchase I decided to wait till tomorrow and sleep on it as it is about the same size as a Glock compact. When walking out I noticed that in the 9mm case there was a used DA/SA P2000SK which looked like it was in really good condition for only $600. I have wanted to own a 9mm for a really long time so it was almost a no brainer. So here she is with another picture of my little H&K family. I am pretty psyched by the purchase and I really like how it sits in my hand after comparing it to a Glock. H&Ks seem to be a bit more "upright" like a 1911. A Glock almost sits like a revolver to me, which I would get used to...not a criticism. It looks like I will be getting an HK45 sometime in the near future. Thanks for all the input and enjoy the pics!