For those of you who haven't been involved in turning custom one off fabrication into production assembly line work, this should be a lesson. This is not a trivial exercise and unfortunately, it's not unusual when dealing with as many third party suppliers as GTM has on this project.

Yes, their communication could be better but this is not a cheap arena to play in nor one where you can expect instant gratification.

I guarantee nobody on here has been without their car over this project longer than me since mine is the one they've been doing the prototyping on for the last 2 years!

I empathize with everyone that committed early. The result will be worth it. But if you can't afford the money or time to play with big boys, don't slide up to the table.

And remember, there's a 4 cyl "BRZ" fighting Z coming out in late 2014 for anyone who would rather "upgrade"... :shakes head:

You are missing the point. The other two primary vendors went through delays as well. Some of the delays were for the exact same reason (casting), yet none of their customers were up in arms or had an outcry anywhere near this level. This has nothing to do with "playing with the big boys." Especially when this is the cheapest (and I don't mean least expensive) kit on the market. It's about treating customers the right way. I understand GTM is busy. But all it would take is a little bit of communication. 5 minutes once a week to provide some visibility. Even if it was as simple as "nothing has changed."

You think you can climb in the ring cause you think you can box?

Apparently you haven't been following this thread...

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All I see is this...

http://www.hollyscoop.com/sites/holl...ggifs_01_1.gif

When you should be doing this...

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/a...s/896728_o.gif

Firehawk that's AWESOME!

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Again, just want to say thanks again to those that are speak more than enough for the rest of us, haha!

I have similar concerns of those that respectfully voice their thoughts, I"m on this group-buy list, I'm a would-be first time GTM customer, and first time group-buy participant so imagine all of the concerns going through my mind. But I refrain from commenting because this thread shouldn't become flaming through as some have already tried to take it in that direction. Honestly, I'm still in this because what they've offered as an upgrade for our patience and understanding. I think that's great even though I haven't taken delivery on it; waiting for when it's all a go. So in the end, maybe they'll have another added touch of bonus for bearing with them on dealing with the unexpected and out of human control factors.

When it comes to business, it's really simple: phone call and then immediately following up via email to recap is a great COYA method. In my opinion, this works the best for me.

GTM, I personally would say and others may agree that it's very appreciative and helpful when you post a ballpark of when the next pulse-check will be with your update. So if it's a couple weeks, then it is what it is and you've managed the expectation that's when it'll be the next update, even if the update is to say 'there're aren't any update at this moment' or remind what's still in flight.

Thanks all!

Nicely said.

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Have you seen pucks in car vid of his kit!

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:icon18:

Over a month now and still no refund. I filed a claim with my bank and they're issuing me a credit for the full amount and going after GTM. I'm done wasting my time leaving messages with GTM. Good luck dealing with this company guys. It's a shame. I've met Sam and liked the guy. Their company has done big things for the Z community, but they're shooting themselves in the foot with this kind of crap. I've taken my business somewhere else and couldn't be happier. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a Boosted Performance kit to enjoy :hello:

Wow things are getting serious when it resorts to financial institutions getting involved.

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I wonder if Trips had any luck getting in contact with them

Yeah, it's very serious, it is a fraud...

I.b.t.l...

Thats possibly taking it a bit far. To say that it is fraud then you are insinuating that GTM is purposely holding onto the money for financial gain with no intention of paying it back or providing a product. I feel bad for Puckshaw but don't think that they are purposely witholding his cash.

I have a feeling that it is more like they have bitten off WAY more than they can chew and dont have the systems in place to handle everything that is going on. Every single time that I have called (from Australia) someone has picked up the phone, either Mike or someone else, so its not like they have shut up shop and run off with everyones money. They just dont have the business systems in place to handle everything and it is now hurting their reputation.

In late 2012/early 2013 either Mike or Sam would post on this forum and the G37 forum almost daily. Now they barely post on here once a month and dont post on the G37 forum at all. Obviously they just have way too much happening and as I mentioned months ago, their communication is now sorely lacking.

The fact that they have not sent me a single email or reached out to me in any way in the 7 or so months since I sent them AUD$8000+ says to me that they just dont have anyone who has any overall control of that side of the business. Having dealt with plenty of local performance workshops in the past, I know that they are generally run by a group of guys who love cars and are great mechanic's but generally dont have anyone on board with any massive amount of business accumen. Once things get too big, too quickly, it can be very easy to lose control.

Hopefully they can get their s$&t together, get everyones money back who asks for it and get the kits out to me and the others asap. Fingers crossed and good luck to them and everyone else involved!

Very nicely said.

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Alkatraz, calling a spade a spade - when someone holds your money for a month without your permission - it's a serious thing for sure. Do you know how much could smart investor earn for 7 months with that money? And how long should the returning wire transfer last from your point of view? A month maybe two ?! Cmon

Glad they answer you. Mike has been ducking me for two weeks. The only person that answers now is Pablo. I've left four message and he's never return them or answers. Hell he was the only person that used to answer. Sure they have called ID and don't want to deal with me. Like I did anything but support them.

Shady, yes. Fraud, no. Fraud requires intent. I seriously doubt this group buy was intended to take people's money and not provide a product.

whats the next free upgrade for the severe delays. gtr manifold conversion kit!

It is most definitely a VERY serious thing, however the term 'fraud' has very significant connotations. Annoying, disgusting, terrible, bad business, bunch of aholes....these are words that can be thrown around but unless there is serious evidence of intent by GTM to purposely hold back money and commit fraud, then the word should not be used. Stuffing up is one thing, committing fraud is something completely different.

I work in the finance sector and deal with banks on a daily basis. If you saw the stuff that I see and knew how big, multi billion $ corporations can completely screw up because their internal systems aren't built well enough to handle everything, then you might understand how easy it would be for a small company like GTM to have their systems fall over.

A VERY good investor would be happy to make a 10% return on his money over 12 months. Due to the exchange rate changes, if I asked for a refund, I would do better than that :P

Just call me 'The Turbo Trader'! That sounds like a name that I could market my highly developed investment system under. Some go long gold or frozen orange juice others go for mortgage backed securities. I went long on GTM TT kits and am making a killing!

I sense an update from GTM once they see what has stirred up here

I am no longer in the group by either. When I signed up it took GTM a few minutes to respond to my questions regarding the kit, and they swiftly accepted my money. I signed up for the layaway program since I didnt really want to finance it and wanted to get in on it before it closed. I had to sign a contract stating that if I cancelled it would require a 25% "restocking fee". Very stupid on my behalf. Hindsight is 20/20. After requesting cancellation, which took two full business days and a phone call to get a reply from my email, Mike informed me that I would be eating $475 due to the restocking fee. He then agreed to allow me to purchase a few items from GTM to avoid losing $475. Finally, after another few phone calls and 7 days later I got an invoice that was literally $400 more expensive than what I could get the items for from another vendors advertised pricing. I gave it some thought and decided that I would gladly loose $475 for a "restocking fee" for a product that isnt available, than giving this company another dollar. Even if I would have payed in full, the company couldnt fulfill their contractual obligations of "once the invoice is paid in full, we will ship your purchase". But, I signed the contract like a dummy and they had me by the testicles. I sent them a long email explaining my disappointment with the company and its customer service, and requested a refund. It took another 8 days to receive a reply. Although I will say that I had my money back 4 days later. Mailed in by check.

Its safe to say that I will not be doing any future business with GTM. Mike is a very nice guy. I have nothing bad to say about him as a person. GTMs lack of customer service is astounding considering how much money they have tied up in this project. In the end I lost $475 dollars for absolutely nothing. It sickens me to think about it. I dont have any regrets from loosing the money to spend the rest of it at a company who I feel wants and will strive to retain my business.

Sorry for the rant..... Its been on my brain for a bit and there is no where else to post this.

Wait- they are charging some people a restocking fee for a product that as yet doesn't exist? Holy ****. That's terrible.

I've been watching this thread for a while now not because Im in group buy but because I care about whats going on. Also, Im still waiting for these new manifolds.

Now this is the first time im going to post here about delays, refunds, and etc.

I personally would love to see GTM return the guy that I quoted above his 475 back because there was no products to return to the stock or store you name it.

I know you guys have to follow whats written on contract but there is nothing to return so I don't see why this customer have to lose 475.

Regards.

I thought restocking fee was for if you returned a product? O o

Exactly. Not if you changed your mind before the product exists.

You guys need to grow a pair. Unbelievable. Do ur creditors behave the same way u do? I need to cash in on this cash cow here. The only community I know that accepts this and you got people even trying to defend this kind of behavior.

Who is happy with spending that kind of cash and getting treated in this manner?

This is the same reaction I had. I know im supposed to say this because I lost money, but that is terrible business IMO.

Truly sad.
Alkatraz any words?

Hang on guys! (Why do I always seem to be defending the company that has my money and doesn't tell me whats going on?!? Lol!)

'Restocking Fee' is probably not the most perfect name for it, but GTM definitely incur a cost for everyone who changes their mind and pulls out. They have used their own and everyone else's money to purchase large quantities of parts in development of these kits. If people pull out then GTM need to return money that has already been invested in parts and development. You all seem to think that GTM have no costs to produce these kits until the very last day that they are ready to be shipped! Everyone here must have at least some basic comprehension of how business works, right?

If GTM has stated an exact delivery date on contract, then they are liable to deliver by that date. As far as I am aware, no exact shipping date was ever provided to me and I was aware that there may be (would probably be) delays.

Edit: Signed contract stating "25% restocking fee". In the end only charged less than 10% of the total purchase price. Even given the option of crediting the restocking fee towards other parts. Not sure why he didn't just get $500 worth of parts and be happy with it but I don't just jump to conclusions and thats his business.

Again, I'm not trying to defend GTM but this all seems above board to me. Apart from the massive, crazy, over the top delays that is!

Alkatraz u are truly sad.

RESTOCKING FEES!!! Are you kidding me when I got my money back they said and I quote "why would we charge you restocking fees" that's not how we work".

I got my full amount back I didn't have to pay restocking nothing. What are they going to restock the idea off the kit? Do not let them take advantage of you!

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I completely understand where you're coming from on this. I think this is why people are having issues getting their refunds. I absolutely think GTM is having liquidity issues due to people backing out, sunk costs for R&D and equipment.

However, I completely disagree that charging a customer a fee to exit the group buy is in any shape, way or form acceptable. They made numerous references to being ready to ship in August or so. It's almost 2014. There's got to be a point where the fee doesn't apply. The contract is two-way. If the customer is in breach for backing out, GTM may also be in breach for not providing a product in a timely manner. Maybe the contract doesn't have a set date in it. I'm sure when the contract was written, they had no idea that in December nobody would have their kits.That doesn't mean that the contract can exist in perpetuity. At some point the customer must be able to get out at no charge if there is no reasonable expectation of having the other end of the contract fulfilled in a reasonable time frame.

And there is always some idiot that resorts to personal attacks when their brain fails them. If you don't know how business works then thats your problem. Keep your personal attacks to yourself!

Trips. Please jump in and clean up the kindergarten again before the dirty nappies start getting thrown around.....again.

Really did you not see this post. Come on man they are deliberately legally taking everyone's money to retain the losses.

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Whats your stake in this? I've read pretty much all of your posts

And I didn't find many useful ones.


NOW step back and put away the pitchfork, and STAY OUT & STAY QUIET!!

This includes Also Dzel! YOU were WARNED already to STAY OUT!

Another comment from either one of you and you'll be sitting on the sidelines sucking your thumb.





On another note fellows, I've left Both Sam/Mike and included AK a pm.

Hopefully they respond or AK can try to find a way to get the refund issues squared away.

I left them all a link here. Im very sorry that I can't do more to help.


Im going to PLEASE ask the discussion stay civil and refrane from making slanderous comments or I'll just close this until Sam reopens it for an update and comments.

Thank Guys. :tiphat:

I have also been following this thread but I am not in the group buy.

I finally called gtm a few hours ago after receiving no reps pines to emails of PMs in week, Mike answered and said Sam was out for the day but would gladly answer my questions tomorrow when I call back at a specified time.

Just pick up the phone and stop relying in a forum to get answers. I have paid in full for a stage 1 TT, one of the ones not in development, on September 19th and have yet to receive my product. Whenever I contact them they give me various reasons why it has been delayed, such as sam's sudden health issue, the shipping department being behind, waiting for the thermal and powdercoating. By now I'm getting antsy and am really starting to get concerned when I will receive the kit, but the point is that if you reach out to them by phone I have always received an answer.

I cannot comment on the members who have left message and never received a call back, but I am sure there is an explanation. GTM has had a large impact on the platform, I doubt they would just pull a 180 and decide to screw over the enthusiasts who helped make the company in the in the first place.

I hope they get on soon and figure it all out.

Alka you should look around here. I didn't mean to attack you personally just kind of slipped. You're just a special kind of person. Business is business. Shady is shady.

You're right on 1 thing. Trips should come in J
here and clean up the shady practice. Look how many people canceled. I believe he's the only one to get charged a restocking fee. Have fun on your island.

Being a cost analyst... You cannot charge the customer for your sunken R&D costs or anything going into the making of a product; especially when the product isn't out yet. Your profit margin should be so high that you cover the R&D, but in this scenario, the customer shouldn't be held liable.


I'll go back in my hole now