4.5L stroker kit

phunk · 04-07-2014, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

just remember the BC is known to have serious install issues so make sure whatever shop you have put it together has done one before Crower Stroker Kit....4.15 liter VQ - MY350Z.COM Forums

That is 8 years old though... but probably worth asking BC about as the pistons hitting the counterweights is a pretty lame issue to have to sort out yourself LOL. If GTM wasn't selling the BC kit, which one do you figure they re-brand? I was assuming it was just BC kits maybe with some secondary machining.

Z eliminator · 04-07-2014, 03:55 PM

Its my fault that i not have the block. Some how Sam and I got our signals crossed on the June Cams. I have a set and i forgot to send to him.
Im shipping them tomorrow night.
And it is his fault too as he is a little late in furnishings the block.
It 11.to 1 compression, and it's going to be running lots of boost

Z

Chuck33079 · 04-07-2014, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z eliminator

Its my fault that i not have the block. Some how Sam and I got our signals crossed on the June Cams. I have a set and i forgot to send to him.
Im shipping them tomorrow night.
And it is his fault too as he is a little late in furnishings the block.
It 11.to 1 compression, and it's going to be running lots of boost

Z

That's the same as stock, isn't it? Don't you want to lower that if you're running a lot of boost?

1slow370 · 04-07-2014, 04:38 PM

one thing is for sure they are using a totally different kit

BC Stroker

GTM stroker

You can see the differences in the pistons, rods, and crank. Look at the skirts of the pistons, the rod journal through holes, and the big ends on the rods they are totally different. The GTM stroker is 96mm vs 88mm for BC, so a BC kit sleeved is 4.15 where as the GTM stroker is 4.2 Unsleeved. Sleeved engines are harder on head gaskets so if its a DD it is usually better to go unsleeved, if its an all out racer then sleeve it.

phunk · 04-07-2014, 04:50 PM

ya i never looked to compare. Could be all custom ordered pistons and rods for whos knows whos crankshaft.

i wouldnt use a sleeved block for anything at all. Strong cylinder walls are worthless when the entire block is compromised!

1slow370 · 04-07-2014, 05:14 PM

The entire block is compromised? Come on cj its an open deck block. The darton mid sleeves are proven to raise the strength of the block. New hemis, and hondas both use the MID sleeves to great results as well as many other applications.

Edit: just to clarify i wouldn't chop into a closed deck block, if it is already closed dry sleeve it but our motors are not. Also installation is key for any sleeve especially wet sleeves, people say not to use the mid sleeves on the gtr engine( i wouldn't it's a closed deck block) but ams uses them in the omega and last I checked that thing makes a **** ton of power.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

Wonka2581 · 04-07-2014, 05:42 PM

Sub'd

phunk · 04-07-2014, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

The entire block is compromised? Come on cj its an open deck block. The darton mid sleeves are proven to raise the strength of the block. New hemis, and hondas both use the MID sleeves to great results as well as many other applications.

Edit: just to clarify i wouldn't chop into a closed deck block, if it is already closed dry sleeve it but our motors are not. Also installation is key for any sleeve especially wet sleeves, people say not to use the mid sleeves on the gtr engine( i wouldn't it's a closed deck block) but ams uses them in the omega and last I checked that thing makes a **** ton of power.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

It is absolutely compromised. For a wet sleeve installation you are removing a lot of material that is integral to the block and introducing foreign entities that do not add to or replace the lost structural integrity of the block. You might have stronger individual cylinders, but as a package you have turned one object into 7 individuals that share no real solid structural integration.

And ultimately, for nothing. Nobody has proven the VQ sleeves to be a weak point for the power levels anyone is going to put into this car. DEs have already seen over 1000 on factory sleeves and I think that's got everyone here covered.

As for the omega gtr... As you already mentioned that is a dry sleeve setup so it has nothing to discuss in relation to VQ wet sleeves. But you should know that the omega and other VRs of its caliber are not just sliding in dry sleeves and going on their merry way. They have further, undisclosed, proprietary strategies in place to help those blocks stay together longer by increasing to the structural rigidity beyond what is inherited by the closed deck design.

I like saying structural

Rusty · 04-07-2014, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonka2581

Sub'd

Me too.

1slow370 · 04-08-2014, 12:29 AM

Actually CJ the omega is a darton wet sleeved, 2000hp, 7sec 1/4miled, 233mph in the standing mile, still on the original block, engine. I believe they are using a bit of filler in the bottom of it too, but that is from hearsay. Open deck blocks take better to sleeving because Oems design open deck blocks thicker at the base of the cylinders to hold the unsupported cylinder stable. and properly installed sleeves remove very little from the engine that wasn't already unsupported. The cylinder stacks in an open deck block can be shaved down to their bases without affecting the integrity of the block, from there a good sleeve install will only over bore cylinder hole near the mains just enough for the engagement of the sleeve and no deeper, so that the mains area can remain intact. Wet sleeves installed wrong and used in applications they shouldn't be weaken the block, but when the sleeve is designed for the engine, as the vq sleeves are, and the machining and installation is done properly, the block will be strengthened not weakened.

Edit: also as for the 7 individual pieces stuff, the darton sleeves when machined and installed correctly are heat shrunk into the block so that even under operating temps the sleeve remains captured in the block, the compresion on the head gasket also serves to force the sleeves down tight against the counterbore made during install in the bottom of the cooling jacket. Also industry uses the wet sleeve technique often due to the common use of very large diesel engines, CAT has several wetsleeved industrial diesels that rack up run times in the thousands of hours before needing rebuilds.

As I said for a closed deck block I personally stick to dry sleeving it, not that wet sleeves can't be done but it takes more work to get it right, wet sleeves are still hard on headgaskets, but when done properly they are a great way to reinforce a block to see higher cylinder pressures.

Also the main advantage of the sleeves is not the strength of them put the fact that you can run 100mm plus bore sizes for more displacement, on the omega they go from 3799cc to 4166cc

phunk · 04-08-2014, 12:49 AM

Well I certainly don't want to argue about a useless topic forever but I do not agree about the the integrity of a wet sleeved block having already been familiar with most the details you have presented. I have a wet sleeved VQ in my garage, I ran it for a few months.

I have different information on what is in the omega car, but none of it relevant. There is more than meets the eye, and you can safely bet that they do not openly present every detail of their winning recipe.

Your cat example is probably iron on iron I am assuming. The wet sleeved VQ is introducing a large mass of dissimilar material that is just precisely wedged in. Heat shrink and press fit doesn't add strength or rigidity to the block, it only serves to stabilize the sleeves, and if anything I believe it will add extra stress to the block structure, in places and directions it wasn't designed to be stressed.

And again, all for what exactly? Where are the failing VQ sleeves that compel one to introduce excessive potential for critical errors that would ruin a very expensive and time consuming engine?

1slow370 · 04-08-2014, 02:42 AM

Like I said the main point of it is to increase the displacement by going way over on the bore. increasing a piston bore is a way to gain back some bore stroke ratio for rpms when stroking a motor, or to push it over square to increase the rpm stability of the engine, increased displacement without increasing piston speed. The iron liners have the side benefit of being more stable and more durable as well as not having to throw the block out of a piston eats itself. These are really only gains for serious competition use like I said earlier in the thread if you are DD'ing the car a sleeved block isn't for you.

I could agree that you aren't making the "block" as I assume you are referring to the original aluminum, any stronger, but by increasing the cylinder strength without too detrimentally affecting the the strength of the mains area, and increasing the cylinder stability and strength which increases ring seal and reduces piston to wall friction, you are making the overall assembly "stronger" in that it is better suited to making more power than it was before. Sleeved motors can be bitch to maintain considering the usually associated sealing issues, thats why they are only for those with the money, time, and need to squeeze as much power out of the motor as is possible, and .3 extra liters from running larger pistons goes a long way towards that especially once you begin to boost the engine.

Edit: as for the omega not the first place I heard it but here Read post 3 from AMS

Also what happened to your wet sleeve engine did it crack in half on you or are you just having gasket issues?

Also this a fun technical debate isn't it? I wonder how many people are actually following it.

DEpointfive0 · 04-08-2014, 02:49 AM

^none of us

FL 4Motion · 04-08-2014, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEpointfive0

^none of us

speak for yourself, I'm TRYING to.

LukasC · 04-09-2014, 01:48 AM

Im following just fine. Know exactly what ur talking about.

04-07-2014, 03:55 PM	#17 (permalink)
Z eliminator A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 1,659 Drives: 370 Z 7AT Sports Rep Power: 18	Its my fault that i not have the block. Some how Sam and I got our signals crossed on the June Cams. I have a set and i forgot to send to him. Im shipping them tomorrow night. And it is his fault too as he is a little late in furnishings the block. It 11.to 1 compression, and it's going to be running lots of boost Z __________________ 12.343 @114.14 . 4.5 stroker motor is now being built. Dec 1 2015.

04-07-2014, 04:38 PM	#19 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7250	one thing is for sure they are using a totally different kit BC Stroker GTM stroker You can see the differences in the pistons, rods, and crank. Look at the skirts of the pistons, the rod journal through holes, and the big ends on the rods they are totally different. The GTM stroker is 96mm vs 88mm for BC, so a BC kit sleeved is 4.15 where as the GTM stroker is 4.2 Unsleeved. Sleeved engines are harder on head gaskets so if its a DD it is usually better to go unsleeved, if its an all out racer then sleeve it. Wonka2581 likes this. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

04-07-2014, 04:50 PM	#20 (permalink)
phunk A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,655 Drives: 370 Rep Power: 944523	ya i never looked to compare. Could be all custom ordered pistons and rods for whos knows whos crankshaft. i wouldnt use a sleeved block for anything at all. Strong cylinder walls are worthless when the entire block is compromised! __________________ Charles @ CJ Motorsports : Website \| Facebook \| Instagram \| YouTube Home of the 9 second, stock longblock, stock drivetrain 6MT 370z. 9.91 @ 142mph

04-07-2014, 05:14 PM	#21 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7250	The entire block is compromised? Come on cj its an open deck block. The darton mid sleeves are proven to raise the strength of the block. New hemis, and hondas both use the MID sleeves to great results as well as many other applications. Edit: just to clarify i wouldn't chop into a closed deck block, if it is already closed dry sleeve it but our motors are not. Also installation is key for any sleeve especially wet sleeves, people say not to use the mid sleeves on the gtr engine( i wouldn't it's a closed deck block) but ams uses them in the omega and last I checked that thing makes a ** ton of power. Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST** Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50 Last edited by 1slow370; 04-07-2014 at 06:05 PM.

04-07-2014, 05:42 PM	#22 (permalink)
Wonka2581 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 3,083 Drives: MY WIFE CRAZY.... Rep Power: 2611	Sub'd __________________ "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat""Winston Churchill"

04-08-2014, 12:29 AM	#25 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7250	Actually CJ the omega is a darton wet sleeved, 2000hp, 7sec 1/4miled, 233mph in the standing mile, still on the original block, engine. I believe they are using a bit of filler in the bottom of it too, but that is from hearsay. Open deck blocks take better to sleeving because Oems design open deck blocks thicker at the base of the cylinders to hold the unsupported cylinder stable. and properly installed sleeves remove very little from the engine that wasn't already unsupported. The cylinder stacks in an open deck block can be shaved down to their bases without affecting the integrity of the block, from there a good sleeve install will only over bore cylinder hole near the mains just enough for the engagement of the sleeve and no deeper, so that the mains area can remain intact. Wet sleeves installed wrong and used in applications they shouldn't be weaken the block, but when the sleeve is designed for the engine, as the vq sleeves are, and the machining and installation is done properly, the block will be strengthened not weakened. Edit: also as for the 7 individual pieces stuff, the darton sleeves when machined and installed correctly are heat shrunk into the block so that even under operating temps the sleeve remains captured in the block, the compresion on the head gasket also serves to force the sleeves down tight against the counterbore made during install in the bottom of the cooling jacket. Also industry uses the wet sleeve technique often due to the common use of very large diesel engines, CAT has several wetsleeved industrial diesels that rack up run times in the thousands of hours before needing rebuilds. As I said for a closed deck block I personally stick to dry sleeving it, not that wet sleeves can't be done but it takes more work to get it right, wet sleeves are still hard on headgaskets, but when done properly they are a great way to reinforce a block to see higher cylinder pressures. Also the main advantage of the sleeves is not the strength of them put the fact that you can run 100mm plus bore sizes for more displacement, on the omega they go from 3799cc to 4166cc __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50 Last edited by 1slow370; 04-08-2014 at 12:47 AM.

04-08-2014, 12:49 AM	#26 (permalink)
phunk A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,655 Drives: 370 Rep Power: 944523	Well I certainly don't want to argue about a useless topic forever but I do not agree about the the integrity of a wet sleeved block having already been familiar with most the details you have presented. I have a wet sleeved VQ in my garage, I ran it for a few months. I have different information on what is in the omega car, but none of it relevant. There is more than meets the eye, and you can safely bet that they do not openly present every detail of their winning recipe. Your cat example is probably iron on iron I am assuming. The wet sleeved VQ is introducing a large mass of dissimilar material that is just precisely wedged in. Heat shrink and press fit doesn't add strength or rigidity to the block, it only serves to stabilize the sleeves, and if anything I believe it will add extra stress to the block structure, in places and directions it wasn't designed to be stressed. And again, all for what exactly? Where are the failing VQ sleeves that compel one to introduce excessive potential for critical errors that would ruin a very expensive and time consuming engine? __________________ Charles @ CJ Motorsports : Website \| Facebook \| Instagram \| YouTube Home of the 9 second, stock longblock, stock drivetrain 6MT 370z. 9.91 @ 142mph Last edited by phunk; 04-08-2014 at 01:07 AM.

04-08-2014, 02:42 AM	#27 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7250	Like I said the main point of it is to increase the displacement by going way over on the bore. increasing a piston bore is a way to gain back some bore stroke ratio for rpms when stroking a motor, or to push it over square to increase the rpm stability of the engine, increased displacement without increasing piston speed. The iron liners have the side benefit of being more stable and more durable as well as not having to throw the block out of a piston eats itself. These are really only gains for serious competition use like I said earlier in the thread if you are DD'ing the car a sleeved block isn't for you. I could agree that you aren't making the "block" as I assume you are referring to the original aluminum, any stronger, but by increasing the cylinder strength without too detrimentally affecting the the strength of the mains area, and increasing the cylinder stability and strength which increases ring seal and reduces piston to wall friction, you are making the overall assembly "stronger" in that it is better suited to making more power than it was before. Sleeved motors can be bitch to maintain considering the usually associated sealing issues, thats why they are only for those with the money, time, and need to squeeze as much power out of the motor as is possible, and .3 extra liters from running larger pistons goes a long way towards that especially once you begin to boost the engine. Edit: as for the omega not the first place I heard it but here Read post 3 from AMS Also what happened to your wet sleeve engine did it crack in half on you or are you just having gasket issues? Also this a fun technical debate isn't it? I wonder how many people are actually following it. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50 Last edited by 1slow370; 04-08-2014 at 03:00 AM.

04-08-2014, 02:49 AM	#28 (permalink)
DEpointfive0 Premium Member Bitches Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SoCal Posts: 14,824 Drives: a lot Rep Power: 17151	^none of us Presto likes this. __________________ Do YOU want to know what/where I got my username from? ( Click to show/hide ) NSFW due to language:

04-09-2014, 01:48 AM	#30 (permalink)
LukasC Track Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Antonio, Tx Posts: 664 Drives: 11 Stillen SC Bl M6 Rep Power: 17	Im following just fine. Know exactly what ur talking about.

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