Raising The Redline On The Z

Rusty · 03-29-2019, 12:19 PM

What it comes down to is this with stock crank and 8K redline with a N/A motor.

DD, canyon play toy. Where you might see 8K maybe once a week. It will live.

Doing track days a couple times a year. It will live. But the number of track days you do increases. The life shortens.

Track toy. You are on borrowed time.

FI is a different story.

JARblue · 03-29-2019, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zer099

I'm not looking for trade secrets but generalized information without ambiguity or apparent speculation is more helpful to the community I would imagine. Helping a common guy plan a build is often vastly different then a race team trying to get their car ready for a season. The whole point of this forum, I thought, was for the common enthusiasts to share information and grow.

So the biggest problem you're encountering is the guys that are doing this kind of crazy work to the Z are still very few and very far between out of a very small total number of Z owners to begin with. Plus not all of them are even on this forum. Some of them were active at one time or another but they weren't posting extreme details on their build mainly because they were busy af and also they understand that there are very few people interested in the extreme cost of these builds.

A lot of the available information that has been presented comes directly from race teams, not common enthusiasts. Gotta have results to avoid speculation, and there just aren't that many out there. So you have to take a few people at their word based on their experience

husam2012 · 03-28-2019, 10:47 PM

I had my 370Z at 7900 rpm and had no issues beating on it for over a year. I needed the extra rpm as it really helps in 1/4 mile time, but other than that there's no reason to go higher on a car that's just a daily.

BGTV8 · 03-29-2019, 12:50 AM

Mate, I have been involved in motorsport for over 40 years, and I learned a long time ago that "engineering" solutions to avoid problems is a lot cheaper than engine rebuilds.

You are talking to a guy who broke 3 engines in a single season back in the 80's and they were 8-10k each in $'s of the day - maybe 2.5 times that now.

IMHO, it is well worth investing in components to eliminate sources of failure and lifing components appropriately.

That said - this is feedback from a hard-core racer - and for anyone beating on rtheir daily for 15 seconds at a time - maybe you can ignore it.

If you are regularly tracking your car and it spends more than 20 seconds per minute at WoT, then maybe you can benefit from my experience.

Doran racing and JWT (their engine builders) will both tell you that OEM cranks crack quickly at 8000+rpm and rod-bolts are a weak point in the OEM engine - do they fail - no, BUT if there is a crack - it will fail in an unpredictable time. The engineers solution is to change it once a crack shows

I'm more than happy to be ignored - but feel bound to put my hard-won knowledge out there if it can help others which I think is the purpsoe of a forum like this one.

Happy for the dissenters to dissent but am perfectly comfortable with my views.

cv129 · 03-29-2019, 11:31 AM

If in doubt, simply ask the other person for further evidence.

Do not assume “no known failure” to equal “no failure” or “won’t fail”.

Elmo370z · 03-29-2019, 01:17 PM

Kels used a stock 370z crank and revved to 9k. It took the abuse, but he also reported having micro cracks from constant revving past 8k

ChopsZ · 04-06-2019, 02:08 AM

So simple (a.k.a. - expensive) answer is a built bottom end with billet crank, built non-VVEL heads, BE billet oil pump and ring that sucker out to 9k! The heck with the junior 8k rpm.

husam2012 · 06-14-2021, 05:09 PM

It's so funny how people answer questions so aggressively when they don't have any actual experience with it.

I'm proud to say that I've finally done a ton of testing with street driven Z's and raised redlines. 7800-7900 on a completely stock motor that's beat on everyday and it hasn't had a single failure.

I also worked on 1slowZ's car and we revved that thing to 8700 every single day and for 60+ dyno runs (the rev limiter wasn't working as intended as I had it set to 8300 but it was revving higher. That car has JUN cams, stock VVEL and again, no valve float, no cracked crank, and no issues at all.

Cars with upgraded oil pump gears will do 8200 all day just fine, but keep in mind this is strictly for daily driven Zs and not a track car that sees all of it's mileage at WOT and redline.

SteveVQ · 06-15-2021, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by husam2012

It's so funny how people answer questions so aggressively when they don't have any actual experience with it.

I'm proud to say that I've finally done a ton of testing with street driven Z's and raised redlines. 7800-7900 on a completely stock motor that's beat on everyday and it hasn't had a single failure.

I also worked on 1slowZ's car and we revved that thing to 8700 every single day and for 60+ dyno runs (the rev limiter wasn't working as intended as I had it set to 8300 but it was revving higher. That car has JUN cams, stock VVEL and again, no valve float, no cracked crank, and no issues at all.

Cars with upgraded oil pump gears will do 8200 all day just fine, but keep in mind this is strictly for daily driven Zs and not a track car that sees all of it's mileage at WOT and redline.

Didn't 1slowZs motor throw a rod a few months back and now he has a new Z? The one that popped was boosted but stock motor, right? I don't stay up to date with youtubers that much. But I remember a video about that happening.

1slow370 · 06-17-2021, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVQ

Didn't 1slowZs motor throw a rod a few months back and now he has a new Z? The one that popped was boosted but stock motor, right? I don't stay up to date with youtubers that much. But I remember a video about that happening.

Motor never blew, it's just going to a new home as the car has been converted to awd so it needs turbos now lol

It does have a dry sump and an ati damper which do go a long way to keeping the crank alive.

THE BULL · 06-17-2021, 01:37 PM

It's a hit or miss and this is a topic you don't want any misses.
Raising a the redline and tuning for it will move your power band and leave your low/mid range a bit bland.

Then ask yourself where in that rev-range will you see yourself and you can come up with a better answer. Tons of things at play here.

A balanced crank/rods with an ATI and great oil pump clearances should last quite a bit but it's all determined on driver/abuse/tune.

Whoever plans on this should have coolers, damper, tune and should open their filters.

Rev should be determined on Rod/stroke ratio + mods + tune. Even then it's not a guarantee.

It appears the VHR has a 1.72 ratio (if math is right)
For better comparision:
Honda K24s have a 1.54 ratio and with a type S pump they are usually revved to 8k
While it's younger brother the K20 has a 1.62 ratio and these are take to 9k every day.
The odd child would be the F20c with a ratio of 1.81 and these are production engines with a standard 9k rev limit.

I understand that how some may feel about Hondas however these high revvers can provide great info at that ratio as long as everything else holds 8k should be feasible.

Hotrodz · 06-17-2021, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE BULL

It's a hit or miss and this is a topic you don't want any misses.

Raising a the redline and tuning for it will move your power band and leave your low/mid range a bit bland.

Then ask yourself where in that rev-range will you see yourself and you can come up with a better answer. Tons of things at play here.

A balanced crank/rods with an ATI and great oil pump clearances should last quite a bit but it's all determined on driver/abuse/tune.

Whoever plans on this should have coolers, damper, tune and should open their filters.

Rev should be determined on Rod/stroke ratio + mods + tune. Even then it's not a guarantee.

It appears the VHR has a 1.72 ratio (if math is right)

For better comparision:

Honda K24s have a 1.54 ratio and with a type S pump they are usually revved to 8k

While it's younger brother the K20 has a 1.62 ratio and these are take to 9k every day.

The odd child would be the F20c with a ratio of 1.81 and these are production engines with a standard 9k rev limit.

I understand that how some may feel about Hondas however these high revvers can provide great info at that ratio as long as everything else holds 8k should be feasible.

If you want a rev high vq engine talk Jim Wolf. Valkyrie Autosport runs one that is stroked with a HR head and rev to 9k. Sasha runs one in his hybrid 350. They are bada$$ motors. Valkyrie got five year of race use and they pretty much only do endurance racing.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

SteveVQ · 06-17-2021, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

Motor never blew, it's just going to a new home as the car has been converted to awd so it needs turbos now lol

It does have a dry sump and an ati damper which do go a long way to keeping the crank alive.

Definitely have you confused with someone else then. My bad. On another note, you converted a 370 to AWD? That's sick! Link to build please?

1slow370 · 06-17-2021, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVQ

Definitely have you confused with someone else then. My bad. On another note, you converted a 370 to AWD? That's sick! Link to build please?

its not in a build thread yet. i tend to finish a car first then spend a couple days making a massive build post then drop it and you guys go nuts.

Spooler · 06-15-2021, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by husam2012

It's so funny how people answer questions so aggressively when they don't have any actual experience with it.

I'm proud to say that I've finally done a ton of testing with street driven Z's and raised redlines. 7800-7900 on a completely stock motor that's beat on everyday and it hasn't had a single failure.

I also worked on 1slowZ's car and we revved that thing to 8700 every single day and for 60+ dyno runs (the rev limiter wasn't working as intended as I had it set to 8300 but it was revving higher. That car has JUN cams, stock VVEL and again, no valve float, no cracked crank, and no issues at all.

Cars with upgraded oil pump gears will do 8200 all day just fine, but keep in mind this is strictly for daily driven Zs and not a track car that sees all of it's mileage at WOT and redline.

You left off the most important part, he had a dry sump system. Stock oil pump had been long gone.

03-29-2019, 12:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
Rusty A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 70 Posts: 35,571 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684440	What it comes down to is this with stock crank and 8K redline with a N/A motor. DD, canyon play toy. Where you might see 8K maybe once a week. It will live. Doing track days a couple times a year. It will live. But the number of track days you do increases. The life shortens. Track toy. You are on borrowed time. FI is a different story. JARblue, Elmo370z and zer099 like this. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html Last edited by Rusty; 03-29-2019 at 12:22 PM.

03-28-2019, 10:47 PM	#3 (permalink)
husam2012 Track Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Michigan Posts: 553 Drives: 370Z Nismo Rep Power: 9471	I had my 370Z at 7900 rpm and had no issues beating on it for over a year. I needed the extra rpm as it really helps in 1/4 mile time, but other than that there's no reason to go higher on a car that's just a daily. __________________ Creator of the GTR TT Conversion Kit, NA Record Holder (401WHP) Ecutek Master Tuner (VQ37, VR30, VR38, B58, S55, S58) BTWTuning

03-29-2019, 12:50 AM	#4 (permalink)
BGTV8 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: 03350 Australia Posts: 1,516 Drives: 09 Nissan 370Z M6 Rep Power: 39975	Mate, I have been involved in motorsport for over 40 years, and I learned a long time ago that "engineering" solutions to avoid problems is a lot cheaper than engine rebuilds. You are talking to a guy who broke 3 engines in a single season back in the 80's and they were 8-10k each in $'s of the day - maybe 2.5 times that now. IMHO, it is well worth investing in components to eliminate sources of failure and lifing components appropriately. That said - this is feedback from a hard-core racer - and for anyone beating on rtheir daily for 15 seconds at a time - maybe you can ignore it. If you are regularly tracking your car and it spends more than 20 seconds per minute at WoT, then maybe you can benefit from my experience. Doran racing and JWT (their engine builders) will both tell you that OEM cranks crack quickly at 8000+rpm and rod-bolts are a weak point in the OEM engine - do they fail - no, BUT if there is a crack - it will fail in an unpredictable time. The engineers solution is to change it once a crack shows I'm more than happy to be ignored - but feel bound to put my hard-won knowledge out there if it can help others which I think is the purpsoe of a forum like this one. Happy for the dissenters to dissent but am perfectly comfortable with my views. JARblue, Rusty, Elmo370z and 7 others like this. Last edited by BGTV8; 03-29-2019 at 03:41 PM.

03-29-2019, 11:31 AM	#5 (permalink)
cv129 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,272 Drives: 09 Nismo, 16 Nismo Rep Power: 163996	If in doubt, simply ask the other person for further evidence. Do not assume “no known failure” to equal “no failure” or “won’t fail”. __________________ Setrab \| RE-71 \| SPL \| JRZ \| Nismo \| ARK \| Whiteline \| RacingBrake \| CJM Oil Pan \| Ti shield Last edited by cv129; 03-29-2019 at 11:34 AM.

04-06-2019, 02:08 AM	#7 (permalink)
ChopsZ Track Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Central Florida Age: 50 Posts: 965 Drives: 2016 370Z GM 6MT Rep Power: 2302	So simple (a.k.a. - expensive) answer is a built bottom end with billet crank, built non-VVEL heads, BE billet oil pump and ring that sucker out to 9k! The heck with the junior 8k rpm. Rusty likes this. __________________ She's For Sale! PERFORMANCE: Aero Workz \| Akebono \| BC Racing \| EcuTek \| HKS \| MaxBore \| Motordyne \| Nismo \| RJM \| SPL \| StopTech \| Z1 AUDIO: Arc Audio \| Bazooka \| Helix \| Pioneer \| Stereo Integrity

03-29-2019, 01:17 PM	#6 (permalink)
Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,730 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295380	Kels used a stock 370z crank and revved to 9k. It took the abuse, but he also reported having micro cracks from constant revving past 8k

06-14-2021, 05:09 PM	#8 (permalink)
husam2012 Track Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Michigan Posts: 553 Drives: 370Z Nismo Rep Power: 9471	It's so funny how people answer questions so aggressively when they don't have any actual experience with it. I'm proud to say that I've finally done a ton of testing with street driven Z's and raised redlines. 7800-7900 on a completely stock motor that's beat on everyday and it hasn't had a single failure. I also worked on 1slowZ's car and we revved that thing to 8700 every single day and for 60+ dyno runs (the rev limiter wasn't working as intended as I had it set to 8300 but it was revving higher. That car has JUN cams, stock VVEL and again, no valve float, no cracked crank, and no issues at all. Cars with upgraded oil pump gears will do 8200 all day just fine, but keep in mind this is strictly for daily driven Zs and not a track car that sees all of it's mileage at WOT and redline. Optimiser and redondoaveb like this. __________________ Creator of the GTR TT Conversion Kit, NA Record Holder (401WHP) Ecutek Master Tuner (VQ37, VR30, VR38, B58, S55, S58) BTWTuning

06-17-2021, 01:37 PM	#11 (permalink)
THE BULL Base Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Florida Posts: 216 Drives: G37S Rep Power: 26850	It's a hit or miss and this is a topic you don't want any misses. Raising a the redline and tuning for it will move your power band and leave your low/mid range a bit bland. Then ask yourself where in that rev-range will you see yourself and you can come up with a better answer. Tons of things at play here. A balanced crank/rods with an ATI and great oil pump clearances should last quite a bit but it's all determined on driver/abuse/tune. Whoever plans on this should have coolers, damper, tune and should open their filters. Rev should be determined on Rod/stroke ratio + mods + tune. Even then it's not a guarantee. It appears the VHR has a 1.72 ratio (if math is right) For better comparision: Honda K24s have a 1.54 ratio and with a type S pump they are usually revved to 8k While it's younger brother the K20 has a 1.62 ratio and these are take to 9k every day. The odd child would be the F20c with a ratio of 1.81 and these are production engines with a standard 9k rev limit. I understand that how some may feel about Hondas however these high revvers can provide great info at that ratio as long as everything else holds 8k should be feasible.

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