Braking problem - malfunctioning ABS

daleks · 05-11-2010, 01:00 PM

StopTech has a great white paper on BBK's and their potential impact on ABS.

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

The problems of a misapplication of a BBK described in the article would apply to the braking system across the board however. The issue raised here is after time on the track (heat buildup in the rotor, caliper, pad, fluid, etc.) the ABS system seems to kick in early. The parameters of the ABS system may be so tightly constrained that when brake fade (due to heat buildup) sets in there is an immediate overreaction. When combined with a misapplied BBK, the overreaction is exacerbated.

Possibly. Maybe. Dunno.

ChrisSlicks · 05-11-2010, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daleks

StopTech has a great white paper on BBK's and their potential impact on ABS.

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

The problems of a misapplication of a BBK described in the article would apply to the braking system across the board however. The issue raised here is after time on the track (heat buildup in the rotor, caliper, pad, fluid, etc.) the ABS system seems to kick in early. The parameters of the ABS system may be so tightly constrained that when brake fade (due to heat buildup) sets in there is an immediate overreaction. When combined with a misapplied BBK, the overreaction is exacerbated.

Possibly. Maybe. Dunno.

It's a possibility. But in this case it would be the stock BBK (small BBK?) that was misapplied. Has anyone with base brakes experienced ice-mode?

I will say that the AP Racing kit goes for a longer period before the heat related ice-mode failure kicks in. The most notable difference besides the calipers is that the rear rotor is much smaller in comparison to stock, reducing the rear bias the stock setup has just slightly.

Hopefully I can get some decent measurements this weekend and we will see just how much heat auto-x can actually generate. Our auto-x courses are roughly twice the standard length, but even still there shouldn't be any way the brakes can overheat in those conditions, but we will see.

AP - Chris_B · 05-11-2010, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

The most notable difference besides the calipers is that the rear rotor is much smaller in comparison to stock, reducing the rear bias the stock setup has just slightly.

Not exactly. Rotor size is not the only factor in determining brake bias as the caliper piston sizing has just as much to do with it. The AP Racing systems do not move the bias forward at all.

Chris

daleks · 05-11-2010, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

It's a possibility. But in this case it would be the stock BBK (small BBK?) that was misapplied. Has anyone with base brakes experienced ice-mode?

Simply by having 'ice mode' doesn't imply a misapplied ABS situation. My point was that by having a misapplied aftermarket BBK may be making the standard situation, which is expected, worse.

ChrisSlicks · 05-11-2010, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daleks

Simply by having 'ice mode' doesn't imply a misapplied ABS situation. My point was that by having a misapplied aftermarket BBK may be making the standard situation, which is expected, worse.

In my case it got better, but there are other BBK kits that didn't fair as well.

ChrisSlicks · 05-11-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

I wish we had some sort of "Track" button that would switch us to a more aggressive ABS tune. I'm pretty sure Ferrari has such a system implemented within their manetino steering wheel system, but that's why they are $250k.

Anyone ever heard of a way to reprogram your ABS parameters?

In other words, I hope we find something punctual that is specifically causing the ABS to go and remain in icemode, but I have a feeling its just the system doing its job in what it is programed to think is a "complete panic stop". I can guarantee you all that the guys with GT3's out there, who have a little bit more resources than most of us do, (I said most, congrats if that doesn't include you) would have found a fix for this already if it were a hardware malfunction.

I would like to think that the ABS could be reprogrammed, but I'm 99% sure that Nissan we never do this unless a flaw can be easily reproduced under street driving conditions, and that the flaw leads to several serious accidents.

Pretty much the only hope of a cheap fix is to locate the source of the triggers and do as much as possible to alleviate them.

At some point Nissan might release a Nissan Motorsports ABS unit for race cars, but it will probably be sold with a moderate price tag and a large "for track use only" warning. The later isn't a real issue for experienced drivers.

RCZ · 05-11-2010, 01:44 PM

I wish we could have real time monitoring of the brake temps. Maybe we could pinpoint a temperature that causes ABS failure.

Who's gonna do it?

http://www.advantagemotorsports.com/Sensors.htm

Last sensor is an IR electronic temp sensor with datalogging.

ChrisSlicks · 05-11-2010, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

I wish we could have real time monitoring of the brake temps. Maybe we could pinpoint a temperature that causes ABS failure.

Who's gonna do it?

This weekend I have an auto-x and will be taking careful temperature measurements of rotor, caliper and brake line both front and rear after every run using an infrared thermometer. This is about as close as we can get to realtime data. At the end of a run the brakes are at peak temperature and then you idle back to your hot pit at 5 mph giving the brakes no cooling on the way there.

travisjb · 05-11-2010, 02:53 PM

Let's see what Chris comes back with...

If more is needed and if the group is willing to pony up contributions, I would run this sensor (Brake Disc Temperature Sensor) connected to my traqmate and start collecting data... we might be able to get away with only 1 corner... cost a few hundred bucks

RCZ · 05-11-2010, 03:34 PM

hmm...buy a toy for travis....I'll pitch in $30

gpa7pk · 05-11-2010, 03:50 PM

subscribed

cossie1600 · 05-11-2010, 05:45 PM

THMotorsports has it at like a 5 or 10% discount, they just drop ship theirs I think.

RCZ · 05-11-2010, 05:53 PM

^ thanks, but I have a feeling you got the website wrong. I got the right one though. Here it is for anyone else interested.
http://www.ctbrakes.com/pads.asp?Make=Nissan

XP10 all around or XP10 front /XP8 rear?

I appreciate the help folks.

spearfish25 · 05-11-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

^ thanks, but I have a feeling you got the website wrong. I got the right one though. Here it is for anyone else interested.
Carbotech Performance Brakes: Products-Nissan Brake Pads & Shoes

XP10 all around or XP10 front /XP8 rear?

I appreciate the help folks.

Got mine from Carbotech directly too. Went with XP10 front/ XP8 rear.

I've been using them on the street as well due to laziness and reluctance to swap. I notice the rear rotors are hotter than the front after aggressive drives. I'd be reluctant to go with XP10 rear.

daleks · 05-11-2010, 07:21 PM

TiSpeed Titanium Brake Backing Plate Heat Shield Shims Improve Your Braking Performance

What backing plates are people using? If any? I'd be curious to see if these made any difference. Supposedly it keeps the heat transfer between the pad and rotor (thus fluid) at a minimum.

05-11-2010, 01:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1119	I wish we could have real time monitoring of the brake temps. Maybe we could pinpoint a temperature that causes ABS failure. Who's gonna do it? http://www.advantagemotorsports.com/Sensors.htm Last sensor is an IR electronic temp sensor with datalogging. Last edited by RCZ; 05-11-2010 at 01:55 PM.

05-11-2010, 02:53 PM	#9 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 189	Let's see what Chris comes back with... If more is needed and if the group is willing to pony up contributions, I would run this sensor (Brake Disc Temperature Sensor) connected to my traqmate and start collecting data... we might be able to get away with only 1 corner... cost a few hundred bucks __________________ 2009 370Z #104 For Sale

05-11-2010, 05:53 PM	#13 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1119	^ thanks, but I have a feeling you got the website wrong. I got the right one though. Here it is for anyone else interested. http://www.ctbrakes.com/pads.asp?Make=Nissan XP10 all around or XP10 front /XP8 rear? I appreciate the help folks. Last edited by RCZ; 05-11-2010 at 05:57 PM.

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05-11-2010, 01:00 PM	#1 (permalink)
daleks Enthusiast Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: St. Louis Posts: 424 Drives: 2011 Evo X MR Rep Power: 16	StopTech has a great white paper on BBK's and their potential impact on ABS. StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades The problems of a misapplication of a BBK described in the article would apply to the braking system across the board however. The issue raised here is after time on the track (heat buildup in the rotor, caliper, pad, fluid, etc.) the ABS system seems to kick in early. The parameters of the ABS system may be so tightly constrained that when brake fade (due to heat buildup) sets in there is an immediate overreaction. When combined with a misapplied BBK, the overreaction is exacerbated. Possibly. Maybe. Dunno.

05-11-2010, 03:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1119	hmm...buy a toy for travis....I'll pitch in $30

05-11-2010, 03:50 PM	#11 (permalink)
gpa7pk Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 135 Drives: 1959 Triumph TR3A Rep Power: 17	subscribed

05-11-2010, 05:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
cossie1600 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: californee way Posts: 5,380 Drives: 370, Leaf Rep Power: 31	THMotorsports has it at like a 5 or 10% discount, they just drop ship theirs I think.

05-11-2010, 07:21 PM	#15 (permalink)
daleks Enthusiast Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: St. Louis Posts: 424 Drives: 2011 Evo X MR Rep Power: 16	TiSpeed Titanium Brake Backing Plate Heat Shield Shims Improve Your Braking Performance What backing plates are people using? If any? I'd be curious to see if these made any difference. Supposedly it keeps the heat transfer between the pad and rotor (thus fluid) at a minimum.