Induction parts + ECU reflash dyno results

ZKindaGuy · 07-31-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Maybe you just need to slow down and rethink how you're posting. Read what you're posting before you hit that button. You realize if you talked like this to anyone in person (say at a car meet), people would either walk away, call you you a *******, or beat you into the ground, depending on their personal demeanor, right?

I don't hide behind the screen as I can certainly take care of myself even in "live" situations...HOWEVER...I do realize I have gone over the top with this post....I do certainly agree with you on that point in your above quote.....

Perhaps there is hope for us to get along here yet....so let's just put this one behind us and both of us accept the fact that we both share an intent to promote the "Z" and that we both come at it from different directions.

I deleted all the insult posts I made the last day or so in this thread as a metaphoric olive-branch offering to you that I am listening to what it is you are saying. And I offer to you an apology for going over the top...

KingDavid · 07-31-2009, 04:49 PM

I'm still lost at that hp-per dollar thing though. I mean. More horsepower alone doesn't mean you'll be any faster than the next car. There's more to mods than just power. Some people have money to blow.

kroze · 08-01-2009, 12:47 AM

It's funny how you guys are fighting about "ROI" & "Investments."

Cars & Mods are never "investments" & doesn't return or make you any money for the average consumer.

So stop fighting about the stupid "Wow you spent $5k for 47hp, terrible investment"

ZKindaGuy · 08-02-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kroze

It's funny how you guys are fighting about "ROI" & "Investments."

Cars & Mods are never "investments" & doesn't return or make you any money for the average consumer.

So stop fighting about the stupid "Wow you spent $5k for 47hp, terrible investment"

When I say "investment" as it pertains to mods I am using the term very loosely as we all know that most cars deppreciate.

I was discussing with a bunch of hard core (about a dozen) Mustang folks at a show yesteday about this particular argument that was going on. Now some of these people I knew and some I never met before in my life. And they all agreed that $25 to $30 per HP gained is the acceptable measure to use when figurring out mod costs in order to tell if you are getting ripped-off or not by the vendors.

I am NOT trying to belabor this point but I was checking with them whether anything had changed since 1997 when I first started getting into modding my cars. And nothing has changed. The figures I quoted are still considered to be the same figures used for making a determination as to whether the potential gain in HP is worth the money you spend obtaining that HP.

So I am going to leave this figure up here for those folks who want to have a measuring stick to use in the future when trying to determine is a mod or mods are going to be worth doing dollar-wise. You can't go wrong with this measuring stick as it has lots of support from folks you spend their summers at the tracks testing their modifications.

To those folks who want to throw away there money then all I can say is...can you send me some of that cash you don't care blowing?

GMZ · 08-02-2009, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

When I say "investment" as it pertains to mods I am using the term very loosely as we all know that most cars deppreciate.

I was discussing with a bunch of hard core (about a dozen) Mustang folks at a show yesteday about this particular argument that was going on. Now some of these people I knew and some I never met before in my life. And they all agreed that $25 to $30 per HP gained is the acceptable measure to use when figurring out mod costs in order to tell if you are getting ripped-off or not by the vendors.

I am NOT trying to belabor this point but I was checking with them whether anything had changed since 1997 when I first started getting into modding my cars. And nothing has changed. The figures I quoted are still considered to be the same figures used for making a determination as to whether the potential gain in HP is worth the money you spend obtaining that HP.

So I am going to leave this figure up here for those folks who want to have a measuring stick to use in the future when trying to determine is a mod or mods are going to be worth doing dollar-wise. You can't go wrong with this measuring stick as it has lots of support from folks you spend their summers at the tracks testing their modifications.

To those folks who want to throw away there money then all I can say is...can you send me some of that cash you don't care blowing?

Id be curious to see how you would achieve these NA gains at your price point? Id like an itemized list since you seem to be so well versed in these matters.

KingDavid · 08-02-2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

When I say "investment" as it pertains to mods I am using the term very loosely as we all know that most cars deppreciate.

I was discussing with a bunch of hard core (about a dozen) Mustang folks at a show yesteday about this particular argument that was going on. Now some of these people I knew and some I never met before in my life. And they all agreed that $25 to $30 per HP gained is the acceptable measure to use when figurring out mod costs in order to tell if you are getting ripped-off or not by the vendors.

I am NOT trying to belabor this point but I was checking with them whether anything had changed since 1997 when I first started getting into modding my cars. And nothing has changed. The figures I quoted are still considered to be the same figures used for making a determination as to whether the potential gain in HP is worth the money you spend obtaining that HP.

So I am going to leave this figure up here for those folks who want to have a measuring stick to use in the future when trying to determine is a mod or mods are going to be worth doing dollar-wise. You can't go wrong with this measuring stick as it has lots of support from folks you spend their summers at the tracks testing their modifications.

To those folks who want to throw away there money then all I can say is...can you send me some of that cash you don't care blowing?

What you don't seem to get is that numbers are just that, numbers. More power alone does not equal a better or a faster car. The guy just put on basic boltons and tuned it. I don't see the big deal. He's trying to make HIS daily driver a quicker car. I'm sure if he wanted a fast and cheaper route, he would. That's not the case.

You also seem to throw out the cost of the car itself. That's a big factor. Those 167mph 1/4 gallardos are expensive. Their turbo kits are over $30,000. Sure you can go faster for cheaper in an old stang but who cares? You just went 8 seconds in the 1/4 in a Lambo. Also, this is a brand new car with a brand new motor. Of course the prices will be sky high right now. Just wait until the car gets more popular and such. I don't agree with hp vs. cost at all. I rather have results. So many factors in between and around your cost vs. hp equation. Would you like to see a video of a 715whp Evo just DESTROY a 1000whp Corvette? Power band, suspension, gearing, tires, aerodynamics, weight, driving skill and a whole bunch of other ****. But cost vs. hp is most important, not results, lol.

Also, a LOT of you missed when he said he had an exhaust mod done on his baseline. The baseline would have been much lower if it were stock. Therefore the gains would have looked a lot higher as well.

ZKindaGuy · 08-03-2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingDavid

What you don't seem to get is that numbers are just that, numbers. More power alone does not equal a better or a faster car. The guy just put on basic boltons and tuned it. I don't see the big deal. He's trying to make HIS daily driver a quicker car. I'm sure if he wanted a fast and cheaper route, he would. That's not the case.

You also seem to throw out the cost of the car itself. That's a big factor. Those 167mph 1/4 gallardos are expensive. Their turbo kits are over $30,000. Sure you can go faster for cheaper in an old stang but who cares? You just went 8 seconds in the 1/4 in a Lambo. Also, this is a brand new car with a brand new motor. Of course the prices will be sky high right now. Just wait until the car gets more popular and such. I don't agree with hp vs. cost at all. I rather have results. So many factors in between and around your cost vs. hp equation. Would you like to see a video of a 715whp Evo just DESTROY a 1000whp Corvette? Power band, suspension, gearing, tires, aerodynamics, weight, driving skill and a whole bunch of other ****. But cost vs. hp is most important, not results, lol.

Also, a LOT of you missed when he said he had an exhaust mod done on his baseline. The baseline would have been much lower if it were stock. Therefore the gains would have looked a lot higher as well.

I completely understand that "more power alone does not equal a better or a faster car". I have been doing the mods stuff for 12 years so I am quite astute in regards to what mods can or cannot do for a car. I have been telling folks for years that mods are not the end all to beat all to being faster or whatever. So how about dropping that already as we have been on the same page since way before you ever brought that point up.

My post is about pricepoint. And yes I know it is an arbitrary number around which to plan mods but in the musclecar world it is a number that most HARDCORE mod-heads who spend their lives at the track beyond the weekend warrior stuff. The general rule is unless you have very deep pockets or sponsors the price-point per HP is between $25 and $30.

I am talking strictly from a price perspective as a guage for your wallet. And you cannot even begin to make an argument that spending $5000 to make 47 additional HP is cost-effective by any means...and I don't care what his exhaust baseline would have been as it more than likely wouldn't be enough on the plus side ( 20 HP addition perhaps) to even make that much difference in the cost per horse ($84 / HP).....use your COMMON SENSE man and JUST LOOK at the amount of the damn money that was spent to make 47 HP.

47 HP @ $5000.00 ???????

KingDavid · 08-03-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

I completely understand that "more power alone does not equal a better or a faster car". I have been doing the mods stuff for 12 years so I am quite astute in regards to what mods can or cannot do for a car. I have been telling folks for years that mods are not the end all to beat all to being faster or whatever. So how about dropping that already as we have been on the same page since way before you ever brought that point up.

My post is about pricepoint. And yes I know it is an arbitrary number around which to plan mods but in the musclecar world it is a number that most HARDCORE mod-heads who spend their lives at the track beyond the weekend warrior stuff. The general rule is unless you have very deep pockets or sponsors the price-point per HP is between $25 and $30.

I am talking strictly from a price perspective as a guage for your wallet. And you cannot even begin to make an argument that spending $5000 to make 47 additional HP is cost-effective by any means...and I don't care what his exhaust baseline would have been as it more than likely wouldn't be enough on the plus side ( 20 HP addition perhaps) to even make that much difference in the cost per horse ($84 / HP).....use your COMMON SENSE man and JUST LOOK at the amount of the damn money that was spent to make 47 HP.

47 HP @ $5000.00 ???????

So I just saw that he spent 5gs in the OP, lol. What cost phimosis 5 grand?

WTF?!

Take a look here.

Quote:

intake: $549
exhaust: $1575
hfc: $573
––––––––––––––––
total: $2697 for 55 whp

That was from the "my 350z" forum.

I'm going to search for the prices of the parts myself because I do not see how the combination of all of that is anywhere near 5 grand...And that's without headers.

KingDavid · 08-03-2009, 01:26 PM

Stillen G3 intakes: $549
STILLEN : STILLEN Generation 3 Ultra Long Tube Dual Intake Kit

Stillen headers: $786
STILLEN : STILLEN 350Z / G35 / G37 / 370Z Headers

Stillen exhaust: $1575 (Ok seriously, for an exhaust system?! I'd go custom, lol. I think this is where most of the money went)
STILLEN : STILLEN 370Z Dual Exhaust System

So it's now $2910. I don't know how much hfc's are because I can't find them. So I'll give it $300 (is that a fair price? EDIT: **** my life, $570 for hiflow cats...Give me test pipes.). So $3480, as proven should make at least 55whp I added the headers into the equation though so it should be a bit more whp. $700 for the ECU and dyno time. So now it's $4180. For what SHOULD have been over 55 whp as claimed by the company that made the products on phimosis' car. Without a tune.

I don't know where 5gs came in...Labor? And I don't know where his power went. Maybe the guys at Stillen can chime in.

So in a jist, $2697 = 55whp (dyno proven by stillen), WITHOUT headers. Maybe the tune? Lol, I dunno.

DannyGT · 08-03-2009, 03:30 PM

I believe 5k included labor to do all the installs? Headers are NOT easy on this car.

Phimosis · 08-04-2009, 07:06 AM

intake: $549
Headers: $786
HFC's: $573
exhaust: $1575
8.75% Sales Tax: $305
Install: $800
ECU re-map: $500
Dyno time: $200

Total: $5288.

But, I got some of the parts on sale at Stillen, so it was a little cheaper.

BTW, you guys can set here and rant all you want about how much power I should get and how much it costs, etc., but as I've said in a post earlier in this thread: This is not a mustang. I've owned 3 of them. This car does not make 60 hp per liter. Squeezing performance gains out of a high strung engine will not be as cheap. Hell, for $5000 you can go buy a 10 year old mustang and mod it so it will be faster than my Z. Do I care? Nope. Not one bit.

The purpose of my initial post was not to brag about how much money I have to spend or to belittle Stillen because my car didn't get the same gains on the dyno as what they advertise. It was simply a real world exercise to show people what it will cost and what they should expect if they do this to their car.

I hate to say it, but I'm going to unsubscribe from my own thread because of all the immature bickering going on in here. I used to have arguments like this with my brother back when I was in highschool. But that was 20 years ago. Enough.

ZKindaGuy · 08-05-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phimosis

intake: $549
Headers: $786
HFC's: $573
exhaust: $1575
8.75% Sales Tax: $305
Install: $800
ECU re-map: $500
Dyno time: $200

Total: $5288.

But, I got some of the parts on sale at Stillen, so it was a little cheaper.

BTW, you guys can set here and rant all you want about how much power I should get and how much it costs, etc., but as I've said in a post earlier in this thread: This is not a mustang. I've owned 3 of them. This car does not make 60 hp per liter. Squeezing performance gains out of a high strung engine will not be as cheap. Hell, for $5000 you can go buy a 10 year old mustang and mod it so it will be faster than my Z. Do I care? Nope. Not one bit.

The purpose of my initial post was not to brag about how much money I have to spend or to belittle Stillen because my car didn't get the same gains on the dyno as what they advertise. It was simply a real world exercise to show people what it will cost and what they should expect if they do this to their car.

I hate to say it, but I'm going to unsubscribe from my own thread because of all the immature bickering going on in here. I used to have arguments like this with my brother back when I was in highschool. But that was 20 years ago. Enough.

There is no "immature" bickering going on. We are accepting the fact that others don't agree necessarily and that is why we are doing what is known in Speech 101 as a rebuff argument.

Communiation doesn't require having to agree with the point another person has presented and there certainly is no requirement that you have to join hands and sing KUMBAYA around the campfire.

I learned this from wstar earlier in this thread so why don't you give it a shot and just learn to tolerate disagreements. No one here has leveled any personal threats againt me in their posting so why are you doing a "spray and pray" with your remark about "immature bickering"?

blackbird · 08-11-2009, 05:45 PM

BTW, if go to Stillen and buy a bunch, ask for a Package price.

I took my car to a tuner, going to get Stillen Headers, HFC, Gen 3 intake, grounding kit and Under pulley. I already had the Stillen exhaust on but nothing else for go. Did change suspension and brakes but they don't affect HP. After I left the car, the dyno guy did a baseline run. They have some "pack" that they use. The results were 270 ft-lbs, 334 WHP. I'm going to try and attach the output but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

Anyway, I though the numbers were a bit high.

wstar · 08-11-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird

BTW, if go to Stillen and buy a bunch, ask for a Package price.

I took my car to a tuner, going to get Stillen Headers, HFC, Gen 3 intake, grounding kit and Under pulley. I already had the Stillen exhaust on but nothing else for go. Did change suspension and brakes but they don't affect HP. After I left the car, the dyno guy did a baseline run. They have some "pack" that they use. The results were 270 ft-lbs, 334 WHP. I'm going to try and attach the output but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

Anyway, I though the numbers were a bit high.

Yes, those numbers are way high for a stock car with just the Stillen exhaust. I don't think anyone's posted results from a Hollyroller dyno here before. It could be that they read very high (even higher than DynoJet by a lot, it seems). For reference, Semtex's car ran 330rwhp on DynoJet and and 317 on Dyno Dynamics with a very complete set of bolt-ons (but no ECU tuning yet). Mine hit 300 on a DD with basically the same setup, but mine's 7AT.

KillerBee370 · 08-11-2009, 06:05 PM

You guys need sponsors... teehee

Stillen HFC
Stllen CBE
Stillen GenIII intake
JWT Clutch
JWT Flywheel
B&M Short Shifter
SS brake lines
ECU reflash + dyno tuned to death
Oil cooler
Tanabe GF210 springs
Axis wheels
Cover of a magazine (ok... that one doesn't belong but

)

Total cost out of my pocket: around $2,600.

And there's more to come...

08-03-2009, 01:26 PM	#54 (permalink)
KingDavid Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Miami Posts: 176 Drives: A car Rep Power: 16	Stillen G3 intakes: $549 STILLEN : STILLEN Generation 3 Ultra Long Tube Dual Intake Kit Stillen headers: $786 STILLEN : STILLEN 350Z / G35 / G37 / 370Z Headers Stillen exhaust: $1575 (Ok seriously, for an exhaust system?! I'd go custom, lol. I think this is where most of the money went) STILLEN : STILLEN 370Z Dual Exhaust System So it's now $2910. I don't know how much hfc's are because I can't find them. So I'll give it $300 (is that a fair price? EDIT: **** my life, $570 for hiflow cats...Give me test pipes.). So $3480, as proven should make at least 55whp I added the headers into the equation though so it should be a bit more whp. $700 for the ECU and dyno time. So now it's $4180. For what SHOULD have been over 55 whp as claimed by the company that made the products on phimosis' car. Without a tune. I don't know where 5gs came in...Labor? And I don't know where his power went. Maybe the guys at Stillen can chime in. So in a jist, $2697 = 55whp (dyno proven by stillen), WITHOUT headers. Maybe the tune? Lol, I dunno. Last edited by KingDavid; 08-03-2009 at 01:31 PM.

08-03-2009, 03:30 PM	#55 (permalink)
DannyGT Track Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Jersey Posts: 919 Drives: 370Z (SOLD) Rep Power: 279	I believe 5k included labor to do all the installs? Headers are NOT easy on this car. __________________ Performance GTM Stage 1 SC, GTM Res.Test Pipes, Invidia Gemini Exhaust, GTM HD Oil Cooler Wheels & Suspension AME Tracer TM02's 19x9.5F 19x10.5R w/ 265x35F & 305x30R, Hotchkis Sways, BC (BR) Racing Coilovers (Car Sold)

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07-31-2009, 04:49 PM	#47 (permalink)
KingDavid Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Miami Posts: 176 Drives: A car Rep Power: 16	I'm still lost at that hp-per dollar thing though. I mean. More horsepower alone doesn't mean you'll be any faster than the next car. There's more to mods than just power. Some people have money to blow.

08-01-2009, 12:47 AM	#48 (permalink)
kroze Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Jersey Posts: 21 Drives: 88 300z Rep Power: 16	It's funny how you guys are fighting about "ROI" & "Investments." Cars & Mods are never "investments" & doesn't return or make you any money for the average consumer. So stop fighting about the stupid "Wow you spent $5k for 47hp, terrible investment"

08-04-2009, 07:06 AM	#56 (permalink)
Phimosis Enthusiast Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Oildale, CA Posts: 412 Drives: 2013 911 4S Rep Power: 416	intake: $549 Headers: $786 HFC's: $573 exhaust: $1575 8.75% Sales Tax: $305 Install: $800 ECU re-map: $500 Dyno time: $200 Total: $5288. But, I got some of the parts on sale at Stillen, so it was a little cheaper. BTW, you guys can set here and rant all you want about how much power I should get and how much it costs, etc., but as I've said in a post earlier in this thread: This is not a mustang. I've owned 3 of them. This car does not make 60 hp per liter. Squeezing performance gains out of a high strung engine will not be as cheap. Hell, for $5000 you can go buy a 10 year old mustang and mod it so it will be faster than my Z. Do I care? Nope. Not one bit. The purpose of my initial post was not to brag about how much money I have to spend or to belittle Stillen because my car didn't get the same gains on the dyno as what they advertise. It was simply a real world exercise to show people what it will cost and what they should expect if they do this to their car. I hate to say it, but I'm going to unsubscribe from my own thread because of all the immature bickering going on in here. I used to have arguments like this with my brother back when I was in highschool. But that was 20 years ago. Enough.

08-11-2009, 06:05 PM	#60 (permalink)
KillerBee370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: So Cal baby! Age: 51 Posts: 5,964 Drives: with passion Rep Power: 321	You guys need sponsors... teehee Stillen HFC Stllen CBE Stillen GenIII intake JWT Clutch JWT Flywheel B&M Short Shifter SS brake lines ECU reflash + dyno tuned to death Oil cooler Tanabe GF210 springs Axis wheels Cover of a magazine (ok... that one doesn't belong but ) Total cost out of my pocket: around $2,600. And there's more to come...