Induction parts + ECU reflash dyno results

wstar · 07-31-2009, 11:09 AM

Regardless of the merits of your original argument, what really puts your posts in the shitter is that you're constantly throwing out insults. I've now been called what? Stupid, naive, novice, dumb-azz? Is that your plan to win a rational argument?

If your dollar per horsepower figure is such an accepted industry standard, surely you can find a reliable source online to quote this from, with some kind of rational argument behind the quote, right? Link it, now. This is the era of the internet. I could find a reference on the mating habits of some obscure Australian earthworm in 5 minutes flat. Surely you can find some backup for your iron-clad dollars per horsepower figure. For that matter, why don't you find some backup for your Porsche engine oil testing data you posted in that other thread in same sort of manner?

And if you don't think enhancing the performance of your car is worth it, perhaps you should spend your money somewhere where ROI even makes sense as a term, like the stock market.

ZKindaGuy · 07-31-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Regardless of the merits of your original argument, what really puts your posts in the shitter is that you're constantly throwing out insults. I've now been called what? Stupid, naive, novice, dumb-azz? Is that your plan to win a rational argument?

If your dollar per horsepower figure is such an accepted industry standard, surely you can find a reliable source online to quote this from, with some kind of rational argument behind the quote, right? Link it, now. This is the era of the internet. I could find a reference on the mating habits of some obscure Australian earthworm in 5 minutes flat. Surely you can find some backup for your iron-clad dollars per horsepower figure. For that matter, why don't you find some backup for your Porsche engine oil testing data you posted in that other thread in same sort of manner?

And if you don't think enhancing the performance of your car is worth it, perhaps you should spend your money somewhere where ROI even makes sense as a term, like the stock market.

The Porshe engine data can be found here:

ELEPHANT RACING Tech Topic, Oil Temperature and Engine Life

And an FYI...Elephant Racing is internationally well known for its race-design partnership with Porsche.

wstar · 07-31-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

The Porshe engine data can be found here:

ELEPHANT RACING Tech Topic, Oil Temperature and Engine Life

If you find hard to extrapolate the graph data that Elephant racing provided then perhaps you need to go back and retake the algebra class that you apparently slept through in high-school.

So, can we get references on your data next time without a side of smartass insults? What made you decide I can't extrapolate data?

wstar · 07-31-2009, 02:06 PM

Maybe you just need to slow down and rethink how you're posting. Read what you're posting before you hit that button. You realize if you talked like this to anyone in person (say at a car meet), people would either walk away, call you you a *******, or beat you into the ground, depending on their personal demeanor, right?

ZKindaGuy · 07-31-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Regardless of the merits of your original argument, what really puts your posts in the shitter is that you're constantly throwing out insults. I've now been called what? Stupid, naive, novice, dumb-azz? Is that your plan to win a rational argument?

If your dollar per horsepower figure is such an accepted industry standard, surely you can find a reliable source online to quote this from, with some kind of rational argument behind the quote, right? Link it, now. This is the era of the internet. I could find a reference on the mating habits of some obscure Australian earthworm in 5 minutes flat. Surely you can find some backup for your iron-clad dollars per horsepower figure. For that matter, why don't you find some backup for your Porsche engine oil testing data you posted in that other thread in same sort of manner?

And if you don't think enhancing the performance of your car is worth it, perhaps you should spend your money somewhere where ROI even makes sense as a term, like the stock market.

As I stated about the mod dollars / HP figure....I found out about this when I got started in doing mods on the various Mustangs I owned and dragged raced since 1997. There were roads I was going down much the same as you folks but I quickly learned to listen to the folks who had the experience and not pursue trying to one-up one-another and casting to the wind all common sense when it comes to price-point / HP gained.

The real insulting part is that the vendors and performance shops certainly can easily identify easy targets who decide dollars spent by way of emotion...its the oldest sales trick in the book...

wstar · 07-31-2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

As I clearly stated about the mod dollars / HP figure....I found out about this when I got started in doing mods on the various Mustangs I owned and dragged raced since 1997. There were roads I was going down much the same as you folks but there is one big difference between me and you folks...I learned to listen to the folks who had the experience..you dummies don't...you just keep trying to one-up one-another and you just cast to the wind all common sense when it comes to price-point / HP gained.

So more insults, now I'm a dummy too, and have no common sense...

And your data is basically, "Well I once raced mustangs, so I'm allowed to pull numbers outta my ***", got it.

Quote:

The real insulting part is that the vendors and performance shops you frequent know this about you folks and in fact encourage it in you because you are considered as easy targets who decide dollars spent by your ego...the oldest sales trick in the book...and your are so infatuated with yourselves that you are completely blind to how you are being played by the vendors.

And more insults...

What the **** is your problem, seriously? Do you honestly think you can read my mind from Ohio? Do you know of a source for a better bolt-on setup than what most of us are running, getting all the same benefits cheaper on a 370Z? If so, please share your knowledge with the rest of us, even though we're idiot losers.

NIZMOZ · 07-31-2009, 08:17 AM

True. It's like any hobby. You want a expensive one, get into DSLR cameras with all the lenses.

KingDavid · 07-31-2009, 04:49 PM

I'm still lost at that hp-per dollar thing though. I mean. More horsepower alone doesn't mean you'll be any faster than the next car. There's more to mods than just power. Some people have money to blow.

kroze · 08-01-2009, 12:47 AM

It's funny how you guys are fighting about "ROI" & "Investments."

Cars & Mods are never "investments" & doesn't return or make you any money for the average consumer.

So stop fighting about the stupid "Wow you spent $5k for 47hp, terrible investment"

ZKindaGuy · 08-02-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kroze

It's funny how you guys are fighting about "ROI" & "Investments."

Cars & Mods are never "investments" & doesn't return or make you any money for the average consumer.

So stop fighting about the stupid "Wow you spent $5k for 47hp, terrible investment"

When I say "investment" as it pertains to mods I am using the term very loosely as we all know that most cars deppreciate.

I was discussing with a bunch of hard core (about a dozen) Mustang folks at a show yesteday about this particular argument that was going on. Now some of these people I knew and some I never met before in my life. And they all agreed that $25 to $30 per HP gained is the acceptable measure to use when figurring out mod costs in order to tell if you are getting ripped-off or not by the vendors.

I am NOT trying to belabor this point but I was checking with them whether anything had changed since 1997 when I first started getting into modding my cars. And nothing has changed. The figures I quoted are still considered to be the same figures used for making a determination as to whether the potential gain in HP is worth the money you spend obtaining that HP.

So I am going to leave this figure up here for those folks who want to have a measuring stick to use in the future when trying to determine is a mod or mods are going to be worth doing dollar-wise. You can't go wrong with this measuring stick as it has lots of support from folks you spend their summers at the tracks testing their modifications.

To those folks who want to throw away there money then all I can say is...can you send me some of that cash you don't care blowing?

GMZ · 08-02-2009, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

When I say "investment" as it pertains to mods I am using the term very loosely as we all know that most cars deppreciate.

I was discussing with a bunch of hard core (about a dozen) Mustang folks at a show yesteday about this particular argument that was going on. Now some of these people I knew and some I never met before in my life. And they all agreed that $25 to $30 per HP gained is the acceptable measure to use when figurring out mod costs in order to tell if you are getting ripped-off or not by the vendors.

I am NOT trying to belabor this point but I was checking with them whether anything had changed since 1997 when I first started getting into modding my cars. And nothing has changed. The figures I quoted are still considered to be the same figures used for making a determination as to whether the potential gain in HP is worth the money you spend obtaining that HP.

So I am going to leave this figure up here for those folks who want to have a measuring stick to use in the future when trying to determine is a mod or mods are going to be worth doing dollar-wise. You can't go wrong with this measuring stick as it has lots of support from folks you spend their summers at the tracks testing their modifications.

To those folks who want to throw away there money then all I can say is...can you send me some of that cash you don't care blowing?

Id be curious to see how you would achieve these NA gains at your price point? Id like an itemized list since you seem to be so well versed in these matters.

KingDavid · 08-02-2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

When I say "investment" as it pertains to mods I am using the term very loosely as we all know that most cars deppreciate.

I was discussing with a bunch of hard core (about a dozen) Mustang folks at a show yesteday about this particular argument that was going on. Now some of these people I knew and some I never met before in my life. And they all agreed that $25 to $30 per HP gained is the acceptable measure to use when figurring out mod costs in order to tell if you are getting ripped-off or not by the vendors.

I am NOT trying to belabor this point but I was checking with them whether anything had changed since 1997 when I first started getting into modding my cars. And nothing has changed. The figures I quoted are still considered to be the same figures used for making a determination as to whether the potential gain in HP is worth the money you spend obtaining that HP.

So I am going to leave this figure up here for those folks who want to have a measuring stick to use in the future when trying to determine is a mod or mods are going to be worth doing dollar-wise. You can't go wrong with this measuring stick as it has lots of support from folks you spend their summers at the tracks testing their modifications.

To those folks who want to throw away there money then all I can say is...can you send me some of that cash you don't care blowing?

What you don't seem to get is that numbers are just that, numbers. More power alone does not equal a better or a faster car. The guy just put on basic boltons and tuned it. I don't see the big deal. He's trying to make HIS daily driver a quicker car. I'm sure if he wanted a fast and cheaper route, he would. That's not the case.

You also seem to throw out the cost of the car itself. That's a big factor. Those 167mph 1/4 gallardos are expensive. Their turbo kits are over $30,000. Sure you can go faster for cheaper in an old stang but who cares? You just went 8 seconds in the 1/4 in a Lambo. Also, this is a brand new car with a brand new motor. Of course the prices will be sky high right now. Just wait until the car gets more popular and such. I don't agree with hp vs. cost at all. I rather have results. So many factors in between and around your cost vs. hp equation. Would you like to see a video of a 715whp Evo just DESTROY a 1000whp Corvette? Power band, suspension, gearing, tires, aerodynamics, weight, driving skill and a whole bunch of other ****. But cost vs. hp is most important, not results, lol.

Also, a LOT of you missed when he said he had an exhaust mod done on his baseline. The baseline would have been much lower if it were stock. Therefore the gains would have looked a lot higher as well.

ZKindaGuy · 08-03-2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingDavid

What you don't seem to get is that numbers are just that, numbers. More power alone does not equal a better or a faster car. The guy just put on basic boltons and tuned it. I don't see the big deal. He's trying to make HIS daily driver a quicker car. I'm sure if he wanted a fast and cheaper route, he would. That's not the case.

You also seem to throw out the cost of the car itself. That's a big factor. Those 167mph 1/4 gallardos are expensive. Their turbo kits are over $30,000. Sure you can go faster for cheaper in an old stang but who cares? You just went 8 seconds in the 1/4 in a Lambo. Also, this is a brand new car with a brand new motor. Of course the prices will be sky high right now. Just wait until the car gets more popular and such. I don't agree with hp vs. cost at all. I rather have results. So many factors in between and around your cost vs. hp equation. Would you like to see a video of a 715whp Evo just DESTROY a 1000whp Corvette? Power band, suspension, gearing, tires, aerodynamics, weight, driving skill and a whole bunch of other ****. But cost vs. hp is most important, not results, lol.

Also, a LOT of you missed when he said he had an exhaust mod done on his baseline. The baseline would have been much lower if it were stock. Therefore the gains would have looked a lot higher as well.

I completely understand that "more power alone does not equal a better or a faster car". I have been doing the mods stuff for 12 years so I am quite astute in regards to what mods can or cannot do for a car. I have been telling folks for years that mods are not the end all to beat all to being faster or whatever. So how about dropping that already as we have been on the same page since way before you ever brought that point up.

My post is about pricepoint. And yes I know it is an arbitrary number around which to plan mods but in the musclecar world it is a number that most HARDCORE mod-heads who spend their lives at the track beyond the weekend warrior stuff. The general rule is unless you have very deep pockets or sponsors the price-point per HP is between $25 and $30.

I am talking strictly from a price perspective as a guage for your wallet. And you cannot even begin to make an argument that spending $5000 to make 47 additional HP is cost-effective by any means...and I don't care what his exhaust baseline would have been as it more than likely wouldn't be enough on the plus side ( 20 HP addition perhaps) to even make that much difference in the cost per horse ($84 / HP).....use your COMMON SENSE man and JUST LOOK at the amount of the damn money that was spent to make 47 HP.

47 HP @ $5000.00 ???????

KingDavid · 08-03-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

I completely understand that "more power alone does not equal a better or a faster car". I have been doing the mods stuff for 12 years so I am quite astute in regards to what mods can or cannot do for a car. I have been telling folks for years that mods are not the end all to beat all to being faster or whatever. So how about dropping that already as we have been on the same page since way before you ever brought that point up.

My post is about pricepoint. And yes I know it is an arbitrary number around which to plan mods but in the musclecar world it is a number that most HARDCORE mod-heads who spend their lives at the track beyond the weekend warrior stuff. The general rule is unless you have very deep pockets or sponsors the price-point per HP is between $25 and $30.

I am talking strictly from a price perspective as a guage for your wallet. And you cannot even begin to make an argument that spending $5000 to make 47 additional HP is cost-effective by any means...and I don't care what his exhaust baseline would have been as it more than likely wouldn't be enough on the plus side ( 20 HP addition perhaps) to even make that much difference in the cost per horse ($84 / HP).....use your COMMON SENSE man and JUST LOOK at the amount of the damn money that was spent to make 47 HP.

47 HP @ $5000.00 ???????

So I just saw that he spent 5gs in the OP, lol. What cost phimosis 5 grand?

WTF?!

Take a look here.

Quote:

intake: $549
exhaust: $1575
hfc: $573
––––––––––––––––
total: $2697 for 55 whp

That was from the "my 350z" forum.

I'm going to search for the prices of the parts myself because I do not see how the combination of all of that is anywhere near 5 grand...And that's without headers.

KingDavid · 08-03-2009, 01:26 PM

Stillen G3 intakes: $549
STILLEN : STILLEN Generation 3 Ultra Long Tube Dual Intake Kit

Stillen headers: $786
STILLEN : STILLEN 350Z / G35 / G37 / 370Z Headers

Stillen exhaust: $1575 (Ok seriously, for an exhaust system?! I'd go custom, lol. I think this is where most of the money went)
STILLEN : STILLEN 370Z Dual Exhaust System

So it's now $2910. I don't know how much hfc's are because I can't find them. So I'll give it $300 (is that a fair price? EDIT: **** my life, $570 for hiflow cats...Give me test pipes.). So $3480, as proven should make at least 55whp I added the headers into the equation though so it should be a bit more whp. $700 for the ECU and dyno time. So now it's $4180. For what SHOULD have been over 55 whp as claimed by the company that made the products on phimosis' car. Without a tune.

I don't know where 5gs came in...Labor? And I don't know where his power went. Maybe the guys at Stillen can chime in.

So in a jist, $2697 = 55whp (dyno proven by stillen), WITHOUT headers. Maybe the tune? Lol, I dunno.

07-31-2009, 11:09 AM	#1 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3596	Regardless of the merits of your original argument, what really puts your posts in the shitter is that you're constantly throwing out insults. I've now been called what? Stupid, naive, novice, dumb-azz? Is that your plan to win a rational argument? If your dollar per horsepower figure is such an accepted industry standard, surely you can find a reliable source online to quote this from, with some kind of rational argument behind the quote, right? Link it, now. This is the era of the internet. I could find a reference on the mating habits of some obscure Australian earthworm in 5 minutes flat. Surely you can find some backup for your iron-clad dollars per horsepower figure. For that matter, why don't you find some backup for your Porsche engine oil testing data you posted in that other thread in same sort of manner? And if you don't think enhancing the performance of your car is worth it, perhaps you should spend your money somewhere where ROI even makes sense as a term, like the stock market. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

07-31-2009, 02:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3596	Maybe you just need to slow down and rethink how you're posting. Read what you're posting before you hit that button. You realize if you talked like this to anyone in person (say at a car meet), people would either walk away, call you you a *******, or beat you into the ground, depending on their personal demeanor, right? __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

07-31-2009, 08:17 AM	#7 (permalink)
NIZMOZ Track Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 634 Drives: 07 NISMO 350Z SA M6 Rep Power: 492	True. It's like any hobby. You want a expensive one, get into DSLR cameras with all the lenses. __________________ SOLD: 2007 NISMO 350Z #0044 Silver Alloy New DD: 2010 Titan Pro4X CC

08-03-2009, 01:26 PM	#15 (permalink)
KingDavid Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Miami Posts: 176 Drives: A car Rep Power: 18	Stillen G3 intakes: $549 STILLEN : STILLEN Generation 3 Ultra Long Tube Dual Intake Kit Stillen headers: $786 STILLEN : STILLEN 350Z / G35 / G37 / 370Z Headers Stillen exhaust: $1575 (Ok seriously, for an exhaust system?! I'd go custom, lol. I think this is where most of the money went) STILLEN : STILLEN 370Z Dual Exhaust System So it's now $2910. I don't know how much hfc's are because I can't find them. So I'll give it $300 (is that a fair price? EDIT: **** my life, $570 for hiflow cats...Give me test pipes.). So $3480, as proven should make at least 55whp I added the headers into the equation though so it should be a bit more whp. $700 for the ECU and dyno time. So now it's $4180. For what SHOULD have been over 55 whp as claimed by the company that made the products on phimosis' car. Without a tune. I don't know where 5gs came in...Labor? And I don't know where his power went. Maybe the guys at Stillen can chime in. So in a jist, $2697 = 55whp (dyno proven by stillen), WITHOUT headers. Maybe the tune? Lol, I dunno. Last edited by KingDavid; 08-03-2009 at 01:31 PM.

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07-31-2009, 04:49 PM	#8 (permalink)
KingDavid Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Miami Posts: 176 Drives: A car Rep Power: 18	I'm still lost at that hp-per dollar thing though. I mean. More horsepower alone doesn't mean you'll be any faster than the next car. There's more to mods than just power. Some people have money to blow.

08-01-2009, 12:47 AM	#9 (permalink)
kroze Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Jersey Posts: 21 Drives: 88 300z Rep Power: 18	It's funny how you guys are fighting about "ROI" & "Investments." Cars & Mods are never "investments" & doesn't return or make you any money for the average consumer. So stop fighting about the stupid "Wow you spent $5k for 47hp, terrible investment"