Ice mode solution?

wstar · 03-27-2012, 02:18 AM

Well, even if you don't get to the point of boiling off the fluid, just fading out the front pads from overheating them a bit can get you into ice mode easier. The fronts fade first, and then the rears lock up before the fronts do, etc...

ChrisSlicks · 03-27-2012, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Well, even if you don't get to the point of boiling off the fluid, just fading out the front pads from overheating them a bit can get you into ice mode easier. The fronts fade first, and then the rears lock up before the fronts do, etc...

Yes this is true, especially for the less worthy track pads (streetable track pads etc).

bkleeman · 03-27-2012, 08:22 AM

Ice Mode = super hard pedal, car wont stop.
Brake Fade = super soft pedal, car wont stop.

It's my opinion that the Ice Mode problem is a software issue. We're running Hawk DTC 70 (f) and DTC 60 (r) on the World Challenge car with Racing Brake 2-piece rotors and am still able to get Ice Mode easily, even before everything has overheated. We're working on a solution, but I think it's going to involve proportioning the brakes properly and installing an ABS disable switch in the cockpit (probably not something you can easily do or even want to on a street car).

It's all about overall pedal pressure, how quickly you apply it and the initial bite on your pads. When it happens you have to give up the pedal and re-apply ... kinda like you do in a non-ABS car

Problem is that takes some quick thinking as you're hurtling towards certain doom.

wstar · 03-27-2012, 08:50 AM

^ Yeah, I get that they're distinct. But fading the fronts on relatively low-end pads isn't a binary condition. As they get "a little" faded, where the pedal's a little softer and your braking distance gets a bit longer, the bias shifts to the rear and then ice-mode kicks in sooner than it did on the previous lap, causing the "omg what happened to my brakes" reaction

.

ChrisSlicks · 03-27-2012, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

^ Yeah, I get that they're distinct. But fading the fronts on relatively low-end pads isn't a binary condition. As they get "a little" faded, where the pedal's a little softer and your braking distance gets a bit longer, the bias shifts to the rear and then ice-mode kicks in sooner than it did on the previous lap, causing the "omg what happened to my brakes" reaction

.

And with pad fade the pedal still feels relatively firm thanks to ABS kicking in at the rear. From the driver's seat you just feel ABS and reduced braking performance.

Also stupid Brake Assist activates the ABS prematurely if you jump on the brake pedal swiftly but haven't pushed the pedal hard enough to activate ABS. Unfortunately Brake Assist is counter productive to what we are taught as proper on-track driving skills.

The ABS system in general does not deal well with grippy track pads and/or low grip conditions. Short of going to a full-race spec ABS system I think you are better off disabling the ABS if you can get things proportioned properly.

wstar · 03-27-2012, 01:47 PM

Nissan should offer a track firmware update or something. Charge a few hundred bucks to reflash the relevant bits at the dealership so that when you turn VDC off, it turns off the brake assist, ABLS, and ice mode code, etc...

cossie1600 · 03-27-2012, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Nissan should offer a track firmware update or something. Charge a few hundred bucks to reflash the relevant bits at the dealership so that when you turn VDC off, it turns off the brake assist, ABLS, and ice mode code, etc...

They should also sell us 10.5 inch f & r wheels. Equip real LSD, camber arms, etc

Sorry but not happening...

ChrisSlicks · 03-27-2012, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

They should also sell us 10.5 inch f & r wheels. Equip real LSD, camber arms, etc

Sorry but not happening...

370Z-R ?

wstar · 03-27-2012, 02:44 PM

Already exists

Nismo 370Z US Spec RC (Race Car)

flashburn · 03-27-2012, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Already exists

Nismo 370Z US Spec RC (Race Car)

Sweet, just placed my order!

Shamu · 04-16-2012, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkleeman

Ice Mode = super hard pedal, car wont stop.
Brake Fade = super soft pedal, car wont stop.

It's my opinion that the Ice Mode problem is a software issue. We're running Hawk DTC 70 (f) and DTC 60 (r) on the World Challenge car with Racing Brake 2-piece rotors and am still able to get Ice Mode easily, even before everything has overheated. We're working on a solution, but I think it's going to involve proportioning the brakes properly and installing an ABS disable switch in the cockpit (probably not something you can easily do or even want to on a street car).

It's all about overall pedal pressure, how quickly you apply it and the initial bite on your pads. When it happens you have to give up the pedal and re-apply ... kinda like you do in a non-ABS car

Problem is that takes some quick thinking as you're hurtling towards certain doom.

Yeah I'd love to have a switch. Switch on for events where I'm not activating and switch off tracks where I know I will have the issue.

I still think issue is primarily rear bias issue which some race car teams have addressed by putting smaller 350 z Brembo rear calipers on the car. Also I'm big fan of staggered setup which helps with bias issue too.

But alas we still haven't identified a cost effective solution for us aggressive brakers who want abs.

Why can't someone hack the abs software to get rid of ice mode for off road use only? How hard is that? I don need race car abs just don't ever want ice mode on the track.

wstar · 04-16-2012, 10:53 PM

I'll be running XP-10+XP-8 this upcoming weekend instead of my previous XP8+XP8 combo. Between that and the new Stillen front brake ducting, I'm hoping that the combination of reduced front temps and higher front heat tolerance means I'll get less front fade in general, which hopefully will keep me out of any bad cases of ice mode.

That and I've spent the past month practicing repeatedly on the street to get better at brake pedal modulation and smooth pedal engagement, so I think I stand a much better chance of not diving into the ABS in general. I've gotten very consistent at not hitting ABS on the street, but we'll see with so much more to focus on at the track. Even if I do, hopefully with a stronger relative bite in the front those will lock before the rears do, again reducing ice-mode odds.

Shamu · 04-17-2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

I'll be running XP-10+XP-8 this upcoming weekend instead of my previous XP8+XP8 combo. Between that and the new Stillen front brake ducting, I'm hoping that the combination of reduced front temps and higher front heat tolerance means I'll get less front fade in general, which hopefully will keep me out of any bad cases of ice mode.

That and I've spent the past month practicing repeatedly on the street to get better at brake pedal modulation and smooth pedal engagement, so I think I stand a much better chance of not diving into the ABS in general. I've gotten very consistent at not hitting ABS on the street, but we'll see with so much more to focus on at the track. Even if I do, hopefully with a stronger relative bite in the front those will lock before the rears do, again reducing ice-mode odds.

I have same big brembo calipers, floating rotors and huge pads as grand am team zero fade and still have ice mode. Yes you can get very proficient at knowing how not to activate abs but you are still likely losing time in braking zones compared to good abs system. Grand am cars they could stand on the brakes and their system would hual cars down quicker than natural talent. I still choose to go without abs as I'd rather get threshold braking and maybe just a little beyond threshold to make the car do what I want. Stock abs doesn't give me much choice.

wstar · 04-17-2012, 08:53 AM

Is there ever a good reason to lock the tires up on a non-ABS car though? Seems like you want threshold braking regardless. I agree it'd be nice to just be able to stomp the pedal and know the system will do the right thing, but I'm not about to drop that many thousand on a racing ABS system (and shouldn't have to just to get rid of Ice Mode).

bkleeman · 04-17-2012, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamu

Yeah I'd love to have a switch. Switch on for events where I'm not activating and switch off tracks where I know I will have the issue.

I still think issue is primarily rear bias issue which some race car teams have addressed by putting smaller 350 z Brembo rear calipers on the car. Also I'm big fan of staggered setup which helps with bias issue too.

We wired our switch this weekend at Long Beach. Works like a charm but even with DTC 30s on the rear it's still heavy rear biased so I left the ABS on.

I was pleased to find out that after killing the ABS on track, you can re-enable it without having to shut the car off or reset anything. That means on-track enabling and disabling.

03-27-2012, 02:18 AM	#196 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Well, even if you don't get to the point of boiling off the fluid, just fading out the front pads from overheating them a bit can get you into ice mode easier. The fronts fade first, and then the rears lock up before the fronts do, etc... __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

03-27-2012, 08:50 AM	#199 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	^ Yeah, I get that they're distinct. But fading the fronts on relatively low-end pads isn't a binary condition. As they get "a little" faded, where the pedal's a little softer and your braking distance gets a bit longer, the bias shifts to the rear and then ice-mode kicks in sooner than it did on the previous lap, causing the "omg what happened to my brakes" reaction . __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

03-27-2012, 01:47 PM	#201 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Nissan should offer a track firmware update or something. Charge a few hundred bucks to reflash the relevant bits at the dealership so that when you turn VDC off, it turns off the brake assist, ABLS, and ice mode code, etc... __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

03-27-2012, 02:44 PM	#204 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Already exists Nismo 370Z US Spec RC (Race Car) __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

04-16-2012, 10:53 PM	#207 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	I'll be running XP-10+XP-8 this upcoming weekend instead of my previous XP8+XP8 combo. Between that and the new Stillen front brake ducting, I'm hoping that the combination of reduced front temps and higher front heat tolerance means I'll get less front fade in general, which hopefully will keep me out of any bad cases of ice mode. That and I've spent the past month practicing repeatedly on the street to get better at brake pedal modulation and smooth pedal engagement, so I think I stand a much better chance of not diving into the ABS in general. I've gotten very consistent at not hitting ABS on the street, but we'll see with so much more to focus on at the track. Even if I do, hopefully with a stronger relative bite in the front those will lock before the rears do, again reducing ice-mode odds. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

04-17-2012, 08:53 AM	#209 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Is there ever a good reason to lock the tires up on a non-ABS car though? Seems like you want threshold braking regardless. I agree it'd be nice to just be able to stomp the pedal and know the system will do the right thing, but I'm not about to drop that many thousand on a racing ABS system (and shouldn't have to just to get rid of Ice Mode). __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

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