Ice mode solution?

flashburn · 03-27-2012, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Already exists

Nismo 370Z US Spec RC (Race Car)

Sweet, just placed my order!

wstar · 04-16-2012, 10:53 PM

I'll be running XP-10+XP-8 this upcoming weekend instead of my previous XP8+XP8 combo. Between that and the new Stillen front brake ducting, I'm hoping that the combination of reduced front temps and higher front heat tolerance means I'll get less front fade in general, which hopefully will keep me out of any bad cases of ice mode.

That and I've spent the past month practicing repeatedly on the street to get better at brake pedal modulation and smooth pedal engagement, so I think I stand a much better chance of not diving into the ABS in general. I've gotten very consistent at not hitting ABS on the street, but we'll see with so much more to focus on at the track. Even if I do, hopefully with a stronger relative bite in the front those will lock before the rears do, again reducing ice-mode odds.

Shamu · 04-17-2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

I'll be running XP-10+XP-8 this upcoming weekend instead of my previous XP8+XP8 combo. Between that and the new Stillen front brake ducting, I'm hoping that the combination of reduced front temps and higher front heat tolerance means I'll get less front fade in general, which hopefully will keep me out of any bad cases of ice mode.

That and I've spent the past month practicing repeatedly on the street to get better at brake pedal modulation and smooth pedal engagement, so I think I stand a much better chance of not diving into the ABS in general. I've gotten very consistent at not hitting ABS on the street, but we'll see with so much more to focus on at the track. Even if I do, hopefully with a stronger relative bite in the front those will lock before the rears do, again reducing ice-mode odds.

I have same big brembo calipers, floating rotors and huge pads as grand am team zero fade and still have ice mode. Yes you can get very proficient at knowing how not to activate abs but you are still likely losing time in braking zones compared to good abs system. Grand am cars they could stand on the brakes and their system would hual cars down quicker than natural talent. I still choose to go without abs as I'd rather get threshold braking and maybe just a little beyond threshold to make the car do what I want. Stock abs doesn't give me much choice.

wstar · 04-17-2012, 08:53 AM

Is there ever a good reason to lock the tires up on a non-ABS car though? Seems like you want threshold braking regardless. I agree it'd be nice to just be able to stomp the pedal and know the system will do the right thing, but I'm not about to drop that many thousand on a racing ABS system (and shouldn't have to just to get rid of Ice Mode).

wstar · 04-17-2012, 09:52 AM

What did you wire the ABS switch on? The same center console fuse others have pulled? I thought that also killed the brake lights, which is kind of a downer.

bkleeman · 04-17-2012, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

What did you wire the ABS switch on? The same center console fuse others have pulled? I thought that also killed the brake lights, which is kind of a downer.

If I recall correctly, we wired it so that it interrupts power to the ABS controller. I think we lose some other sensors like yaw, but it didn't seem unhappy when I had it off. We didn't look at the brake lights... maybe we should check that out - make sure they still work

Dwnshift · 04-17-2012, 02:30 PM

just putting in my two cents from what I have experienced in my "showroom stock" endurance racing...
Brakes are one of the most....CRITICAL areas for lap times and safety.
There are MANY aftermarket pads that claim insane brake/clamping force numbers and ramping up temps etc. Stay away from all of these ESP if you are having any ABS issues such as "ice mode"
PAGID makes an excellant pad for this EXACT scenario.
I can tell you this....our RC comes with BOSCH racing adjustable ABS and we have still switched to a pad with reduced brake bite...and been able to reduce braking distance.
The other issue "high clamping" brakes pads do it kill your turn in.These pads ramp up so fast and can generate excessive heat...their release isnt as good.
Poor release meaning the driver has begun to reduce brake pedal pressure...but the pads are still dragging/clamping on the rotors..this doesnt let the front tires turn ....and it gives the driver a huge sensation of "understeer" at corner entry.
For those track guys /racers with a LARGE budget...and are serious about your track days ....source out Kurt Jung and inquire about the TEVIS motorsports ABS pump....its virtually plug and play...its also about $8500....but...going 140 at the end of the back striaght at Mid Ohio in your car with iffy brakes ?????? How much does crash damage cost?
Any upgrade to the rotor and caliper size only enhances the problem...doesnt solve it.
Not sure what the OEM setup on the 370Z is....but another option to look at....is a vacuum chamber reservoir. This will help keep a built up vacuum to assist the brakes.
Assisted brakes rely on vacuum to help feed the system....if you use it up...the brake pedal gets hard...the pistons are no longer compressing as much...and the car doesnt stop. The added chamber gives lets the system build up and have a larger supply to assist it. Escp helpful for cars with large cams....or forced induction cars.
Again...back to the pads and too much initial ramp up / bite....every single ABS pulse of the pedal ...uses and takes away vacuum. So a bunch of quick long hard hits...and your supply is gone...pedal goes stiff.
Systems like the TEVIS are programmed to "cycle" faster and have a higher sampling freq....the pedal will have very fast softer hits...and it uses the vacuum a lot more efficiently.
My first suggestion....Pagid pads.
Dwnshift

thekinn · 09-11-2012, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwnshift

My first suggestion....Pagid pads.
Dwnshift

Can you make any recommendations for us HPDE, street tire guys? My first thought was the RS14 front and RS4-4 rear on a 4piston front, 2piston rear 350Z. A friend suggested RS19 front and rear.

chuang895 · 03-20-2013, 04:48 AM

this might be a fix, it mentions that with this BBK system, you do not have to worry about ABS Freezing "Ice Mode" ....ABS 誤動作. it says this brake system re-adjust brake bias to its optimal.....so i guess we can officially agree that ice mode is a result of brake bias?? (this is coming from NISMO official website) then if this is true, then playing around with different brake pads F and R should help determine what is best setup....but i still see lots of ice mode complaining even with numerous changes on brake pad setup.

I bought my 09 Z couple months ago planning to make it a dedicated track car, but obviously without much research.

1. 1st problem noticed was oil temp, i ran into limp mode while doing some mild spirited run on mountain roads (WHY does this happen on a NA car)

2. now, i've always know that Z33 had ABS Ice mode issue but was assuming Nissan had fixed that on Z34, but obviously i was wrong.

so, unless a race ABS system is used, it just can't be tracked safely. I have 10+ years track experience and uses my brake pretty damn hard.

i'm a guy coming from S2000, NSX, EVO, and Sti; never had to worry about ICE Mode as long as i changed out pad, fluid, brake duct, and SS line....worry free.

now with the issues 370Z is having, it is going to be a costly project to safely track as the track PIC has many slow turn and requires very hard braking in about 4 corners. 2012.11/25-OTGP

sorry guys, i'm not here to bash on 370z.... i like it otherwise would not have bought it.......i just think the people that track 370z knowing ice mode may bite you and catch you off guard are brave

travisjb · 03-20-2013, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuang895

this might be a fix, it mentions that with this BBK system, you do not have to worry about ABS Freezing "Ice Mode" ....ABS 誤動作. it says this brake system re-adjust brake bias to its optimal.....so i guess we can officially agree that ice mode is a result of brake bias?? (this is coming from NISMO official website) then if this is true, then playing around with different brake pads F and R should help determine what is best setup....but i still see lots of ice mode complaining even with numerous changes on brake pad setup.

I bought my 09 Z couple months ago planning to make it a dedicated track car, but obviously without much research.

1. 1st problem noticed was oil temp, i ran into limp mode while doing some mild spirited run on mountain roads (WHY does this happen on a NA car)

2. now, i've always know that Z33 had ABS Ice mode issue but was assuming Nissan had fixed that on Z34, but obviously i was wrong.

so, unless a race ABS system is used, it just can't be tracked safely. I have 10+ years track experience and uses my brake pretty damn hard.

i'm a guy coming from S2000, NSX, EVO, and Sti; never had to worry about ICE Mode as long as i changed out pad, fluid, brake duct, and SS line....worry free.

now with the issues 370Z is having, it is going to be a costly project to safely track as the track PIC has many slow turn and requires very hard braking in about 4 corners. 2012.11/25-OTGP

sorry guys, i'm not here to bash on 370z.... i like it otherwise would not have bought it.......i just think the people that track 370z knowing ice mode may bite you and catch you off guard are brave

welcome to the forum! don't you wish you came here first?

i'm skeptical the issue is "solved" with a new set of calipers and pads... one theory is that the abs computer looks for differential wheel spin rates as its trigger for ice mode... calipers and pads will help but never completely eliminate differential wheel spin rates - also requires suspension tuning and driver input changes... the real solution is going to be new ABS software or computer

fortunately I haven't had the issue in my last 5-6 track outings... maybe something about the tracks I am on... was worst for me on short technical tracks, esp where track surface had both turns and bumps in braking zones

would encourage you to read some of the track car build journals - mine's linked below

Zoomzoom22 · 03-20-2013, 12:48 PM

I beached our 370z race car this past weekend in turn 10 (wondered if it was ever going to stop before I came out the other end of the gravel and hit a wall).

Careful is all I can say. I have 14 years of road racing, 10 different cars, never had a similar issue, scary deal. I do think too aggressive on pads on front could be a culprit. We switched from XP20 fronts to XP12's and it was "better".

Mike · 03-20-2013, 07:43 PM

sorry to hear that zoomzoom. I guess I count my self as fortunate, because I have never had ice mode, and Roat A is my home track. I brake very deep into 10a. I run 14" stoptech trophy, St60 front St41 rear, with XP12 pads on Hoosiers or Pirellis, and Hawk blue on NT-01s, same compound front and rear.

djtodd · 03-20-2013, 08:12 PM

Anyone else tried the vacuum reservoir or aux vacuum pump trick and care to chime in?
Personally I haven't run into the issue, but I think it's just been timing, my home track, and luck...

travisjb · 03-20-2013, 08:26 PM

mike b today posted on his journal re vacuum res - didn't work

Shamu · 03-20-2013, 08:53 PM

Abs is overrated

This
[IMG]

[/IMG]

Plus this

Equals cheap alternative until I get spendy abs system

Pulling abs off the car bypassing it and using proportioning valve on rears. Losing abs system weight off front and putting weight in middle with proportioning valve. Big ole fat tires should give me lots of stopping ability without abs.

04-16-2012, 10:53 PM	#2 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3596	I'll be running XP-10+XP-8 this upcoming weekend instead of my previous XP8+XP8 combo. Between that and the new Stillen front brake ducting, I'm hoping that the combination of reduced front temps and higher front heat tolerance means I'll get less front fade in general, which hopefully will keep me out of any bad cases of ice mode. That and I've spent the past month practicing repeatedly on the street to get better at brake pedal modulation and smooth pedal engagement, so I think I stand a much better chance of not diving into the ABS in general. I've gotten very consistent at not hitting ABS on the street, but we'll see with so much more to focus on at the track. Even if I do, hopefully with a stronger relative bite in the front those will lock before the rears do, again reducing ice-mode odds. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

04-17-2012, 08:53 AM	#4 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3596	Is there ever a good reason to lock the tires up on a non-ABS car though? Seems like you want threshold braking regardless. I agree it'd be nice to just be able to stomp the pedal and know the system will do the right thing, but I'm not about to drop that many thousand on a racing ABS system (and shouldn't have to just to get rid of Ice Mode). __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

04-17-2012, 09:52 AM	#5 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3596	What did you wire the ABS switch on? The same center console fuse others have pulled? I thought that also killed the brake lights, which is kind of a downer. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

04-17-2012, 02:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
Dwnshift Track Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Cincy Posts: 717 Drives: NISMO 370Z RC Rep Power: 16	just putting in my two cents from what I have experienced in my "showroom stock" endurance racing... Brakes are one of the most....CRITICAL areas for lap times and safety. There are MANY aftermarket pads that claim insane brake/clamping force numbers and ramping up temps etc. Stay away from all of these ESP if you are having any ABS issues such as "ice mode" PAGID makes an excellant pad for this EXACT scenario. I can tell you this....our RC comes with BOSCH racing adjustable ABS and we have still switched to a pad with reduced brake bite...and been able to reduce braking distance. The other issue "high clamping" brakes pads do it kill your turn in.These pads ramp up so fast and can generate excessive heat...their release isnt as good. Poor release meaning the driver has begun to reduce brake pedal pressure...but the pads are still dragging/clamping on the rotors..this doesnt let the front tires turn ....and it gives the driver a huge sensation of "understeer" at corner entry. For those track guys /racers with a LARGE budget...and are serious about your track days ....source out Kurt Jung and inquire about the TEVIS motorsports ABS pump....its virtually plug and play...its also about $8500....but...going 140 at the end of the back striaght at Mid Ohio in your car with iffy brakes ?????? How much does crash damage cost? Any upgrade to the rotor and caliper size only enhances the problem...doesnt solve it. Not sure what the OEM setup on the 370Z is....but another option to look at....is a vacuum chamber reservoir. This will help keep a built up vacuum to assist the brakes. Assisted brakes rely on vacuum to help feed the system....if you use it up...the brake pedal gets hard...the pistons are no longer compressing as much...and the car doesnt stop. The added chamber gives lets the system build up and have a larger supply to assist it. Escp helpful for cars with large cams....or forced induction cars. Again...back to the pads and too much initial ramp up / bite....every single ABS pulse of the pedal ...uses and takes away vacuum. So a bunch of quick long hard hits...and your supply is gone...pedal goes stiff. Systems like the TEVIS are programmed to "cycle" faster and have a higher sampling freq....the pedal will have very fast softer hits...and it uses the vacuum a lot more efficiently. My first suggestion....Pagid pads. Dwnshift mmmm likes this.

03-20-2013, 04:48 AM	#9 (permalink)
chuang895 Base Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Taiwan Posts: 9 Drives: 2009 370Z Rep Power: 14	Nismo Brembo Brake Kit this might be a fix, it mentions that with this BBK system, you do not have to worry about ABS Freezing "Ice Mode" ....ABS 誤動作. it says this brake system re-adjust brake bias to its optimal.....so i guess we can officially agree that ice mode is a result of brake bias?? (this is coming from NISMO official website) then if this is true, then playing around with different brake pads F and R should help determine what is best setup....but i still see lots of ice mode complaining even with numerous changes on brake pad setup. I bought my 09 Z couple months ago planning to make it a dedicated track car, but obviously without much research. 1. 1st problem noticed was oil temp, i ran into limp mode while doing some mild spirited run on mountain roads (WHY does this happen on a NA car) 2. now, i've always know that Z33 had ABS Ice mode issue but was assuming Nissan had fixed that on Z34, but obviously i was wrong. so, unless a race ABS system is used, it just can't be tracked safely. I have 10+ years track experience and uses my brake pretty damn hard. i'm a guy coming from S2000, NSX, EVO, and Sti; never had to worry about ICE Mode as long as i changed out pad, fluid, brake duct, and SS line....worry free. now with the issues 370Z is having, it is going to be a costly project to safely track as the track PIC has many slow turn and requires very hard braking in about 4 corners. 2012.11/25-OTGP sorry guys, i'm not here to bash on 370z.... i like it otherwise would not have bought it.......i just think the people that track 370z knowing ice mode may bite you and catch you off guard are brave

03-20-2013, 12:48 PM	#11 (permalink)
Zoomzoom22 Base Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Atlanta Posts: 42 Drives: Bmw 750Li M Rep Power: 14	I beached our 370z race car this past weekend in turn 10 (wondered if it was ever going to stop before I came out the other end of the gravel and hit a wall). Careful is all I can say. I have 14 years of road racing, 10 different cars, never had a similar issue, scary deal. I do think too aggressive on pads on front could be a culprit. We switched from XP20 fronts to XP12's and it was "better".

03-20-2013, 07:43 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2188	sorry to hear that zoomzoom. I guess I count my self as fortunate, because I have never had ice mode, and Roat A is my home track. I brake very deep into 10a. I run 14" stoptech trophy, St60 front St41 rear, with XP12 pads on Hoosiers or Pirellis, and Hawk blue on NT-01s, same compound front and rear. __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

03-20-2013, 08:12 PM	#13 (permalink)
djtodd Track Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Lexington, SC Posts: 932 Drives: 2012 Nismo TT Rep Power: 3400	Anyone else tried the vacuum reservoir or aux vacuum pump trick and care to chime in? Personally I haven't run into the issue, but I think it's just been timing, my home track, and luck...

03-20-2013, 08:26 PM	#14 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 190	mike b today posted on his journal re vacuum res - didn't work __________________ 2009 370Z #104 For Sale

03-20-2013, 08:53 PM	#15 (permalink)
Shamu A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Nor Cal Posts: 1,059 Drives: 370Z Racecar Rep Power: 21	Abs is overrated This [IMG][/IMG] Plus this Equals cheap alternative until I get spendy abs system Pulling abs off the car bypassing it and using proportioning valve on rears. Losing abs system weight off front and putting weight in middle with proportioning valve. Big ole fat tires should give me lots of stopping ability without abs. __________________ Grant Last edited by Shamu; 03-20-2013 at 08:59 PM.

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