Why is Ford doing more than Nissan?

ImportConvert

The oil cooler was nice...I've never gotten my car hotter than 225*F even in 100*+ weather. So much for the theory that my rotors warp because I'm abusive.

UNKNOWN_370

Oil cooler came 3 years too late. That's my gripe. Too late with everything. nissan's refusal to take care of issues immediately caused the current demise of Z sales more than economy.

ImportConvert

Well maybe they can fix the fuel starvation (never had that, but plenty of you who actually DO drive their cars hard complain) and the rotor issue (I must drive my car too hard, but never got it hotter than 225 or fuel starved it, maybe if we take the rotors from your car, and put them on my car, we can have a decent car? One with a good oil cooler, fuel system, and rotors. WIN!) before the 2015 GT?

ImportConvert

Ford is saddled with the sins of the father regarding a lot of their current chassis designs and layouts. Look for them to sweep the floor this decade (2014-2018).

nuTinmuch

Yeah, honestly I don't get it.

Nissan has two performance cars, both of which are fairly impressive machines. While the 370z hasn't aged that well (performance wise), I think many people forget where it was when it first came out. There really wasn't anything comparable to it. It was good. Reviewers liked it. They only turned against it when (logically) better options came out on the market.

Then there is the GT-R -- and really, I don't think I have to say anything about that.

Now, I see a lot of complaints that Nissan hasn't updated the 370z, but I honestly don't think anyone expects them to. They don't have the R&D money that Ford has, nor do they have the racing wing that they do. I mean, now they do, with Nismo moving more in that direction, but before? Not really.

Nissan is essentially a company between Toyota and Mazda, both in volume and in goal. Mazda arguably bakes "fun to drive" into every car they make, even if it is a SUV. On the other hand, Toyotas are slow and boring (at least right now).

Nissan might not sell as many cars as Toyota, but they also aren't as boring, either. I'm not saying an Altima or Maxima is the height of driving excitement, but put them next to a Corolla or Camry and they are suddenly a lot more interesting.

But -- unlike, say, Mazda -- they really aren't trying to appeal to the enthusiast. Because doing so isn't a good business plan. We are a dying breed, and pandering to us is stupid. Ford can afford to do so because of who they are. So can GM, for that matter. But Nissan can't. Especially not after the sales disappointment of the 370.

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nuTinmuch! -- Platinum Graphite 370Z -- Check out my Gallery thread here!

bdavis89

Has anyone seen the new Sentra? Those look genuinely nice. I wouldn't even consider the corolla if I was looking for that type of car.

Eagerly waiting for the next Mustang though. My wife has already been notified that if I like it I'm getting it.

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UNKNOWN_370

I fall asleep behind the wheel when i see one. lol

ZBro16

Time for me to chime in on this whole Nissan vs. Ford thing, and then I'll get to why Nissan is where it is and where it is headed.

As far as Nissan vs. Ford - Ford has two cash cows - the F150 and the Mustang. In each of those segments, Nissan has the short end of the stick across the board as far as sales volume and the overall competitiveness of its matching product. The only vehicle Nissan has that was a threat to Ford's product of the same segment is the Altima, and that has even come back to get Nissan in the form of the Fusion - it is kicking *** in the market right now.

Nissan's Titan is hopelessly outdated (blame the Italians for that, as Nissan's joint venture with Dodge for the hemi donor chassis for the next gen was the first thing Fiat axed when they bought Chrysler), and they're taking an awfully long time to bounce back and produce a second generation vehicle (the current Titan is one of the longest running platforms in the company's history without a significant refresh or full redesign). Since the original Titan, which was a great bang-for-the-buck alternative in the full sized market, the competition has evolved.

The Z is too much of a niche car for the common buyer in the sports car market. While most of us here appreciate the car and its heritage and what it can do, the fact of the matter is in the sports car commonplace, horsepower is what people look at. They don't study a lot more. When you stack a Z against a new Mustang, the common sports car buyer will buy the Mustang. Period. Last year, the Mustang actually accounted for at least half of sports car sales. Huge, especially considering the market is growing with product alternatives.

The Altima is the source of blame for Nissan's recent trend of vanilla in my opinion. The pencil-pushers in charge have noted the Altima's success since its 3rd generation bowed, and they have spread that formula across the board to where it has completely bullied each bordering segment of passenger car.

A 2013 model 2.5 Altima makes 38 MPG highway. Which is the exact same as the 2013 Versa, which sports far less space, far less power, and far less overall quality. A Versa equipped with commonly purchased amenities goes for about $14-16k. When you hit the 16k mark in price, you're dangerously close to what the Altima would go for (starting in the low 20s, could probably be had for 19k and change if you worked a dealer on it). Why would you buy the Versa when you can have a completely otherworldly vehicle for just a couple thousand more? The compact car is to be a budget car, and is not so at 14k.

The fact that I even wrote the paragraph above is not at all good for the 2013 Sentra, which is slotted between those two cars with the same fuel economy and horsepower that is right in between the two models. There is almost no place for that car. Especially when benchmarked against the competition - (the Mazda3 Skyactiv Sedan for example - more power, better fuel economy). From a distance, it is even difficult to distinguish a 13 Sentra from a 13 Altima. The Sentra used to be a completely different vehicle from the Altima. Not so anymore. It is a ripoff of the car and it doesn't do anything better than the Altima.

Now that brings us to the other side of the spectrum - the Maxima. AKA the car that does nothing different from an Altima 3.5SL yet costs $10k more. At least it looks different, but why would you buy one aside from that? At least in Toyota's case, the Avalon is a larger vehicle with regards to trunk space, interior space, and overall dimensions, and offers more upscale amenities than its smaller sibling in the Camry. The Maxima has none of this.

So now, with Nissan's passenger cars, we have the following lineup. The "tall" (Versa), the "Grande" (Sentra), the "Venti" (Altima), and the Venti that is $5 more for the same drink in the same size but comes in the holiday themed cup instead of the normal cardboard. That is what has happened to Nissan.

The same existential crisis is present in the Murano since the debut of the new Pathfinder. The new Pathfinder also nullifies the benefits of going to an Armada. Same goes for the Juke and Rogue. What is the point of a Rogue vs. a Juke? A touch more cargo space perhaps. Nothing more. It's dull, boring, slower, less engaging to drive, and has a duller interior.

The only three vehicles that Nissan makes that stand out are the Xterra, the GT-R, and the 370Z. (Notice how I left the Leaf off? It's because the Leaf is a flop and will be forgotten in 10 years when America realizes the electric car is nothing more than blowing smoke at the real energy crisis it is facing and the electric car will never facilitate America's transportation needs outside of big cities.)

The 370Z has played victim to the GT-R, much like every passenger car Nissan makes has played victim to the Altima, but for different reasons. Nissan's sports car budget has gone DIRECTLY to the GT-R and they have done nothing more than toss the Z on life support because they ignored what was happening to the mid-range sports car market with respect to the American economy. They had a serious opportunity to respond to that with the design of the 370Z (making it a 2+2 again, for example, as well as providing some practical use for a daily driven sports car like every other sports car it competes against), but instead they were too attached to the format of the 350Z, which came along during a time which the market was in a completely different place than when the 370Z was to be launched. Nissan was too focused on the GT-R and continues to be too focused on the GT-R.

As for the Xterra, it is the last of a dying breed of utility vehicle, and as the market is somewhat stagnant now, a major game changer will have to come along, and sadly but fittingly, it will likely be the Jeep Wrangler that does this as it is and always will be the king of true offroad body-on-frame SUVs.

Ford is doing more than Nissan because Ford, while having the capital to take risks, has actually had the fortitude to take the risks. That's the problem - Nissan is playing it way too safe. There's no excuse to this - we just saw a major success at breathing life into a once retired segment in the entry level sports car, and it took two companies to do it: Subaru and Toyota. Two companies who saw an opportunity in the market and seized it together, and they're now reaping the rewards. Why isn't Nissan doing that? Why isn't Honda doing that? Better yet, why aren't these companies trying to do this TOGETHER?

They're not concerned with it, and that's ok. The Nissan of old died when Renault showed up. Luckily, in our free market economy, we are free to buy something else, and hopefully Nissan will get the message unless the next Z is a game changer.

People are clamoring for a "mini Z" to meet the BRZ/FRS. They aren't doing it anytime soon. But what Nissan needs to do for sure? The need the next Z to be a "mini GT-R". If they're not going to do that, then they need to hang it up and do their best to build the next Camry, because it's all they'll have left.

bdavis89

Oh the **** has hit the fan now!

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cossie1600

You are joking right

Red__Zed

A lot of it probably has to do with internal politics as well.

When the 370Z flopped (from a project perspective), it becomes harder for the "let's build something sporty" faction to get funding.

The GTR was a huge success, which has resulted in more funding--some of which has gone to upgrades, most of which has gone to press. You'll see a next-gen GTR because it had a huge positive to Nissan's bottom-line.


Ford's doing big things with the Mustang because when they packaged more performance, they sold more. People (like me) who would have never bought a Mustang, bought one...and loved it.

When Nissan packed more performance in the Z, they sold less. It had more to do with the fact that their release timing was terrible, but internal politics is tough. Drop the ball on a project, and you have to wait before you get fat NP funding again.

Get it right (like the guys at Ford did), and you get a higher credit limit.

UNKNOWN_370

lol.

Nissan needs to try to be more like ford?

Red__Zed

What? They sold cars. If you've even been in a company with competing operational philosophies, it's exactly the same. Get results, get funded.

If the 2011-2013 Mustang had sold like the 370Z, you wouldn't be seeing a ground up re-design, you'd be seeing an S197 with LED strips on the bumper.

If the 370Z had sold like it was projected, you'd have probably seen a 2013 or 2014 performance bump, much like you saw on the 350Z.

It pretty much comes down to--if you want a company to make sporty cars, their sporty cars have to make money.

UNKNOWN_370

Yeah but you can't compare the business philosophies and product line-up of ford to nissan.

I think Japan, just got pissed with american reviewers nitpicking and they let the car be.

Nissan mistakes were not fixing the first 5 issues that arose immediately. And the american media GROSSLY exaggerated the Z flaws while over-glorifying american sports entries. People in the country believe what they hear from a so-called respected source. they don't take the pepsi-challenge like they should...
While there is high logic and reasonability to your analysis. You're negating way more factors that I think played a bigger role. Nissan sells 250 Gt-R's a month, but they poor millions in that car. There's a bigger reason than NOT being like ford.

Red__Zed

The Z got great review when it was new. The typical reporting cycle generally has flaws ignored for a while.

At the end of the day, Nissan doesn't make decisions based on what car magazines say. It's a business, they have a fiscal obligation to their shareholders to maximize profits, and they do whatever they can to get there. Decisions at the top level are based on sales numbers and profit margins, not on anything else.

Some groups tend more towards different strategies. When the sporty guys are successful, you see more sporty cars from that company (think Honda circa 98). When they have some bad luck (declining sales, etc), the beancounters win (see Honda circa now).


Nissan dumps money in the GTR because it's the most effective way for them to advertise.

Beats doing this: