Correct.

A true DCT transmission does not have a torque converter. Nor a Park gear. It is more akin to a manual than an automatic, although there is a computer in between your shifting and the transmission. Think of it as a robotized manual transmission, not an automatic with manual override.

As someone adeptly pointed out in another thread on this forum, you already have a pilot hydraluic system between your clutch pedal and the actual clutch in a modern manual. And the 370Z will blip the downshifts for you unless you tell it not to. The DCT is an improvement over both.

I can report from my 4C forum that even the most fervent advocates of the 3-pedal layout forget about the difference in about 10 minutes. Those who continue to bellyache about it have simply never driven a true DCT. If anyone is among the latter category, go test drive a true DCT car in manual mode before you judge. In a slow, touring car, 3 pedals are perhaps still preferable. On a real sports car, times have moved on.

Shifts are lightnening fast, and fully driver controlled. You can make them as early or late as you wish, you just cannot slip the clutch. Instead, there are usually different driving modes recognizing varying driving situations (such as comfort, snow, or track), which affect the speed of clutch engagement. However, the opportunity to heel and toe is lost.

I dont disagree but there are SOO many ""purests"" out there that will hate reading that.

[QUOTE=ZCanadian;3743593]Correct.


I can report from my 4C forum that even the most fervent advocates of the 3-pedal layout forget about the difference in about 10 minutes. Those who continue to bellyache about it have simply never driven a true DCT. If anyone is among the latter category, go test drive a true DCT car in manual mode before you judge. In a slow, touring car, 3 pedals are perhaps still preferable. On a real sports car, times have moved on.

QUOTE]

I couldn't disagree more. I am on my second GT-R (had an '09 since '08, which I traded in for a '15 in '14), and I would never want to have only a DCT. For me, there is no comparison to driving a manual. Most people who buy a car seem to convince themselves that what they have is better, so in my experience most folks on DCT car forums say they love DCTs. Sure, they are faster and easier to drive (and I obviously love my GT-R, which you might say is the car that made all the other performance cars switch to DCTs). But the skill and involvement of a true manual connects you to the car in ways that a DCT is designed to disconnect you from. A DCT just performs it's function more efficiently than most (all?) people can. I just think that if efficiency is the only goal, then soon we will all be in self driving computer pods.

[QUOTE=gsx95;3743719]
I have a manual and a DCT. Will take the DCT over 3 pedals every day of the week, unless I’m just out Sunday driving. The DCT is faster shifting, and way more consistent on the track to not unsettle the car when at the limit (not just my words). It is also easier on the clutch(es) in traffic.

It is true that it is far easier to master a DCT (and I’ve far from mastered a manual), but the feedback I get from other drivers who also have cars with either, including track instructors, is that they feel as close a connection with the DCT car as they do with the third pedal, and are faster around any course.

However, to each their own. As long as the choice is offered. Except that more and more it isn’t.

[QUOTE=gsx95;3743719]Its about managing the power more effectively than the leg can do. You can actually use the power better and not damage the drive line/system. Your servo clutch already disconnects you from the car. The manual has been gone for much longer than most realize.

I feel connected to my cars by driving them. It has very little to do with what system manages the power in the gearbox. The totality of the experience is the connection. Too much so called 'enthusiast' focus on this manual obsession. Almost they seem to miss the point of the rest of the car.

[QUOTE=ZCanadian;3743758]I feel like your defense of the DCT is actually bolstering my point. Of course it shifts faster. Of course it is more consistent. Of course it is easier in traffic. There is a certain group of skills historically requiring mastery to drive well. It is what separates excellent race car drivers from the rest of us. Now we are allowing a computer to assume the responsibility for one of those skills, and of course the computer is much better at it than we are. The computer will also be much better, faster and smoother at steering input, brake modulation and hitting brake points, acceleration out of turns, etc. It is all but guaranteed that these skills will be taken over by technology that is better at it than we are. If going faster around a track is the ultimate goal, humans will soon just be along for the ride. It is already happening. If the satisfaction of mastering skills and techniques is the goal, anything that assumes control over them is detrimental to that. And for the record...I am master of nothing! I just enjoy the attempt.

I do agree that having a choice is most important, but I don't understand why a truly dedicated car enthusiast wants to develop fewer driving skills.

Mostly everything written about the DCT can be applied eventually to autonomous driving vehicles. Although I do like technology and appreciate progress, I for one prefer shifting through the gears. There is something quite pure about it. Long live the manual transmission!!!

For me it comes down to what I like when it comes to motorsports. NASCAR is my favorite where a bad shift could destroy an engine, and those guys are masters of the clutch pedal. BUT, If I were to be given a choice between a stock car or a Formula 1 car to drive, I would go open-wheel because of the incredible speed. I do love my manual at the moment though...hopefully I can keep it for a while.

[QUOTE=gsx95;3743942]Most major racing series feature a DCT / sequential gearbox. They would also fit the race car master category. You like manual gearbox. Thats all your saying and you didnt make a point. If anything you are missing it. Race drivers are not driving manuals so they lack skills LOL???????????

[QUOTE=DLSTR;3744080]Yup. They lack the skills of previous generations of racers. And their ONLY goal is to go fast around a track. Is that yours as well?

[QUOTE=gsx95;3744108]Well, my goal isn't to go SLOWEST around the track! :p

There are plenty of driving skills to go around. Heel-toe is just one, and really only critical to shorten stopping distances, preserve car balance near the limit, and protect the clutch and drive train BECAUSE OF the limitations of the 3-pedal manual gearbox. Pretty much everything else that you do with a traditional manual transmission (determining the shift point or engine braking for instance) is no different in a DCT. You just do it faster in a dual clutch manual.

And, for the record, I would say that modern racers do not lack in skill when compared with their predecessors. Given today's speeds, and the horsepower available in current cars, I think that a great many heroes of the past might wet themselves - or at least be appreciative that engineering gave them quicker, more predictable shifts without having to take their hands off the wheel or their left foot off the dead pedal!

[QUOTE=ZCanadian;3744309]:iagree: Well said sir... :tiphat:

Gauge cluster reveal

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/11/...el-spy-photos/

LOL, they even cover up part of the centre stack / display.

Ewww why does it remind me of the 80's? Can you say KnightRider?

:iagree: Back to the future via 1983. The music was great but the car dashes were beyond hideous.

Even that steering wheel looked mad dated.

I still think it looks like an RX-8. But worse.

With as long as this car has been kicked around, there was no way it was ever going to blow anyone's mind. None.

But please for the love of God why do I need a steering wheel from a Rav4 in a Supra?

A link from 'Jalopnik" about the Supra today - https://jalopnik.com/the-2019-toyota...car-1825317746

Appears this will not be an inexpensive machine

Doesn't really tell anyone anything...

In other news, it will almost definitely have between three and six tires and rumours say it will have DOORS!

The GT86 is a wannabe racer. A good platform to play with, but cannot really be called a performance car. Great value for the money. Not as great as the 370Z. Just a bit newer.

If it is co-developed with BMW, you can bet the Supra will be priced in the same range as its Teutonic sibling. Look at other twins separated at birth. MX5 and the 124 Spider comes to mind - pricing only really differs in as much as the packages are not directly comparable. Then they talk about possibly limiting production. Saying that the new Supra "will not be cheap" should not surprise anyone.

:iagree:
There was a report a couple years back that gas engine cars will be exclusive to exotics as the push to make gas engines nearly EXTINCT. So as new sports cars come out. You will see prices getting higher. If a Z starts at 30k? I expect a Supra 4 cylinder to start as a base price on the mid 30's. And the 6 turbo to begin where the Nismo ends. About $48k. So you're easily looking at 60k for a loaded supra and up to 80k for special performance versions.


Anyway... New news. Better wheels. Woo hoo! :ughdance:

https://jalopnik.com/hell-yeah-the-n...-co-1825838732

I'd say the price increases have more to do with longer and longer auto loan terms and less about the electric stuff. People are stupid and impulsive by default, and most auto buyers don't give a damn about the price, only the monthly payment. So why not raise the price of the car and sell it to morons on a 84 or 96 month note?

I'd say the prices are mainly set "because they can". Spreading it out over a longer term certainly helps ease the pain, but I'm of the opinion that stupid should HURT.

[QUOTE=ZCanadian;3744309]That quote is not me but GSX95. See the previous page. I did not say anything about being fastest around a track as a goal.

That's not me either...I just replied to it!

63k y'all...

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/06/ne...claims-source/

Makes the Z look like a huge relative bargain!

oh dang. Over priced

that makes a GTR look like a much better option too :bowrofl:

63k and remember thats probably without any options.

$63k for this....3.0-liter turbocharged inline-six cylinder engine will produce 335 hp and 369 lb-ft of torque...what the actual fuk. It feels underwhelming for some reason. This Toyota better feel high class.

Definitely happy I pulled the trigger on a 370z in Feb, instead of waiting for this. Assuming this is accurate.

Maybe a used GT-R...new ones are near double that! And probably not worth their MSRP either...Hopefully the new Supra is amazing.

That’s a lot of dough for a car from TOYOTA! Won’t be surprised if it is accurate, but that really shakes up the Toyota/Lexus separation.

2018 pure 99,990, prem. 110k, track 128k, nismo 175k.

let them take it off the lot and boom 30k off :tiphat:

c'mon no one buys new. let the people with too much money go take that hit. scoop it up barely used for a good price. trust me it works out nicely.

Another day, more clickbait. Not even going to read it since it is just speculation pulled out of someone's a**.

Well, actually, for every used car there WAS a new buyer at one time. :p

And since he knew he was going to sell it and drop the minimum 20% value, he probably drove it to get his money's worth out of it. So, the next guy gets an engine that's been cold-revved and a drive train that's been abused during the run-in period. That's assuming there's no physical damage to the structure or body.

But that's going off-topic for this thread.

BlackZeda is right, nothing is confirmed until it is confirmed by the manufacturer. So far, we really don't even know when (or if) the car will make production. Or how it will be appointed / options. And if dealers will try to go over MSRP for the first few months and pre-orders.

well that could be true but not everyone is a douche. most people who buy these new either barely drive it or beat it. flip a coin and see what happens lol

I'm on my second one, bought both new. I lost about 17k on the first one in 6 years when I traded it in, and paid 88k for my current one, so I haven't lost 30k on my 15 yet and I have had it almost 4 years. Honestly, that's about as much as these cars are worth (to me, at least). Regardless, I wouldn't compare a new Supra to a used GT-R. We'll see what the used Supra market is like eventually. And no coin flipping for me, lol!

i just got my 15 at a pretty solid price.

the supra is most likely gonna be a bust. if thats the price it will be a bit too high for the market but who knows it could be big.

or could end up like the FRS. booms out the gate then dies quick.

I think you're right.

now if they bring the 2JZ back then it'll be a legend no matter what the body looks like lol