Oil temps: 335 comparitive observation.

antennahead · 05-17-2009, 12:01 PM

Has the metallurgy improved today to the point where these engines are designed to run with longevity at the higher temps we are seeing? Are we applying old school oil temp knowledge to a modern engine that is built with components that withstand higher temps? I would assume 280 is dangerous, or Nissan would not have placed limp mode at this threshold. I would still worry about prolonged driving at 260 to 280 personally, and with the 90+ heat of summer coming, that worries me.

John

Modshack · 05-17-2009, 02:06 PM

Some info from the intraweb...

"TORQUE CUT CONTROL (AT HIGH ENGINE OIL TEMPERATURE)
The ECM receives engine oil temperature signals from engine oil temperature sensor.
To avoid VVEL performance degradation, the ECM performs the engine torque cut control at high engine oil temperatures.
If engine oil temperature is too high, engine oil viscosity will change. As a result, engine oil pressure is
decreased. This control affects the VVEL operating angle by operating the VVEL actuator sub assembly.
If this control is operated, engine performance will decrease, then maximum engine speed is reduced a bit (Various levels of Limp Mode depending on temp).
.
The VVEL is a fairly complex system, with a relatively high amount of reciprocating mass and multiple linkages. The lubrication demands are very high to ensure Nissan's life expectancy goals are met. The shearing loads and high pressures exerted on the oil dictate a proper viscosity be maintained in order to resist lubrication failure due to these loads. Because an oil's ability to resist shearing weakens as it gets hot and thins out; a phenomenon plotted as a function of viscosity and shear stability known as the Stribeck curve, it is essential that the oil maintain it's specified viscosity at the appropriate operating temperature. This is why Nissan has engineered a fail-safe which limits power until the oil cools back to its specified operating temperature, because at that temperature it should be at the proper viscosity to withstand the high loads of the VVEL system.

CBRich · 05-17-2009, 04:07 PM

Great chart ModShack.

From BMW USA Site.

BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is recommended for scheduled engine oil changes.
BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil* (BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866)

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Approved Synthetic Oils for the US Market:

Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40
Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30
Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30

Use only oils with an API rating of SM or higher.

The choice of the right SAE grade is based on the climatic conditions in the region in which you normally drive your BMW.

Looks to me like they are approving some of your standard synthetic oils. Nothing spectacular.

sensi09 · 05-17-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBRich

Great chart ModShack.

From BMW USA Site.

BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is recommended for scheduled engine oil changes.
BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil* (BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866)

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Approved Synthetic Oils for the US Market:

Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40
Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30
Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30

Use only oils with an API rating of SM or higher.

The choice of the right SAE grade is based on the climatic conditions in the region in which you normally drive your BMW.

Looks to me like they are approving some of your standard synthetic oils. Nothing spectacular.

Mobil 0W-40 is excellent. And the synthetic castrol is a german formulation that is also very good, but can be difficult to source in the U.S.

spearfish25 · 05-17-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

How do they come up with the 'Engine Life' curve? That seems like an interpretation. Not sure that one can look at that and say "Ah crap, my car is usually 230F all summer so I've cut my engine life in half..."

Modshack · 05-17-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spearfish25

How do they come up with the 'Engine Life' curve? That seems like an interpretation. Not sure that one can look at that and say "Ah crap, my car is usually 230F all summer so I've cut my engine life in half..."

Just a representation ffrom a Porsche site discussing 300,000 mile 911's..
Don't take it as gospel, but also don't expect your engine to last as long at 250+ degrees as it will at 190...

Sardis · 05-17-2009, 07:58 PM

Interesting thread. My friend and I were driving around in his 09 335i Auto. We passed the Nissan dealer in Scottsdale and decided to test drive a new Z.

To our amazement the dealer handed us the keys and did not come with us. I drove the car much like my old 04, spirited to say the least. Oil temp shot up to 260.. I would back off each time and would drop off pretty quick. I was saddened to see it jump back so quickly, just with some full throttle runs.

In AZ, it is safe to say this is not a track issue. After the test drive my friend and I watched his gauge very closely. It was short of the middle, somewhere around 240, he also drove very aggressively.

Not to get off topic, but this was the first time I drove a new Z. I connected with it and fell in love, just like I did the first time I drove the 04 I bought.

I have always been hard on Nissan for the coarseness of the VQ, but 37HR felt considerably better than my old DE.

Anyway great car, but the temps were scary. I would be petrified to take it to a track day during the summer in AZ, in its stock form.

juld0zer · 05-19-2014, 10:33 PM

bit of a thread revival here..

the 335i is a (in early models twin) turbo car so oil temps would definitely be higher than an N/A engine because the engine oil is used to lubricate the turbo bearings so it's just another creator of oil heat.

The issue is, the Nissan ECU is extremely overprotective. As many folks have pointed out on this forum, modern cars will most likely run oil temps of 100*c/210f+ in just normal daily driving.

Our engine's throttle response suffers significantly at oil temps of 94*c/200f upwards - which in my opinion is ridiculously low for a sports car.

I'm still not convinced that the VVEL system contributes that much heat that it has to be protected. Probably more like the VVEL linkages and small components would likely become weaker at higher engine temps...

The CVTC system is often overlooked when it comes to oil heat. It relies on oil pressure to hydraulically adjust the cam angle and this generates a fair amount of heat.

The other issue worth mentioning is the onboard oil temp gauge - surely it doesnt update in real time. I notice the throttle lag lingers for a while even afger the gauge reports <94*c oil temp. Has anyone hooked up a separate oil temp gauge with its own temp probe and compared? I cant remember what Cipher was reporting but it did seem to have a highish update frequency based on my log.

Jordo! · 05-20-2014, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juld0zer

bit of a thread revival here..

the 335i is a (in early models twin) turbo car so oil temps would definitely be higher than an N/A engine because the engine oil is used to lubricate the turbo bearings so it's just another creator of oil heat.

The issue is, the Nissan ECU is extremely overprotective. As many folks have pointed out on this forum, modern cars will most likely run oil temps of 100*c/210f+ in just normal daily driving.

Our engine's throttle response suffers significantly at oil temps of 94*c/200f upwards - which in my opinion is ridiculously low for a sports car.

I'm still not convinced that the VVEL system contributes that much heat that it has to be protected. Probably more like the VVEL linkages and small components would likely become weaker at higher engine temps...

The CVTC system is often overlooked when it comes to oil heat. It relies on oil pressure to hydraulically adjust the cam angle and this generates a fair amount of heat.

The other issue worth mentioning is the onboard oil temp gauge - surely it doesnt update in real time. I notice the throttle lag lingers for a while even afger the gauge reports <94*c oil temp. Has anyone hooked up a separate oil temp gauge with its own temp probe and compared? I cant remember what Cipher was reporting but it did seem to have a highish update frequency based on my log.

I believe the ECU pulls a little ignition timing over 200* F -- not sure how fast the analog gauge responds, but the ECU is probably updating fairly close to real time.

05-17-2009, 02:06 PM	#2 (permalink)
Modshack A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Greenville NC Posts: 2,883 Drives: 370Z Sport Rep Power: 977	Some info from the intraweb... "TORQUE CUT CONTROL (AT HIGH ENGINE OIL TEMPERATURE) The ECM receives engine oil temperature signals from engine oil temperature sensor. To avoid VVEL performance degradation, the ECM performs the engine torque cut control at high engine oil temperatures. If engine oil temperature is too high, engine oil viscosity will change. As a result, engine oil pressure is decreased. This control affects the VVEL operating angle by operating the VVEL actuator sub assembly. If this control is operated, engine performance will decrease, then maximum engine speed is reduced a bit (Various levels of Limp Mode depending on temp). . The VVEL is a fairly complex system, with a relatively high amount of reciprocating mass and multiple linkages. The lubrication demands are very high to ensure Nissan's life expectancy goals are met. The shearing loads and high pressures exerted on the oil dictate a proper viscosity be maintained in order to resist lubrication failure due to these loads. Because an oil's ability to resist shearing weakens as it gets hot and thins out; a phenomenon plotted as a function of viscosity and shear stability known as the Stribeck curve, it is essential that the oil maintain it's specified viscosity at the appropriate operating temperature. This is why Nissan has engineered a fail-safe which limits power until the oil cools back to its specified operating temperature, because at that temperature it should be at the proper viscosity to withstand the high loads of the VVEL system. __________________ Steal my car! (SOLD)...Now Porsche Cayman S Oil Cooler DIY: Here!

05-17-2009, 12:01 PM	#1 (permalink)
antennahead A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 15,181 Drives: '07 Z4 "M" Roadster Rep Power: 58	Has the metallurgy improved today to the point where these engines are designed to run with longevity at the higher temps we are seeing? Are we applying old school oil temp knowledge to a modern engine that is built with components that withstand higher temps? I would assume 280 is dangerous, or Nissan would not have placed limp mode at this threshold. I would still worry about prolonged driving at 260 to 280 personally, and with the 90+ heat of summer coming, that worries me. John

05-17-2009, 04:07 PM	#3 (permalink)
CBRich A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: SC Posts: 2,464 Drives: 370Z Rep Power: 545	Great chart ModShack. From BMW USA Site. BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is recommended for scheduled engine oil changes. BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil* (BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866) BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Approved Synthetic Oils for the US Market: Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30 Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40 Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30 Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30 Use only oils with an API rating of SM or higher. The choice of the right SAE grade is based on the climatic conditions in the region in which you normally drive your BMW. Looks to me like they are approving some of your standard synthetic oils. Nothing spectacular.

05-17-2009, 07:58 PM	#7 (permalink)
Sardis Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: CA Posts: 72 Drives: EX Z Owner Rep Power: 17	Interesting thread. My friend and I were driving around in his 09 335i Auto. We passed the Nissan dealer in Scottsdale and decided to test drive a new Z. To our amazement the dealer handed us the keys and did not come with us. I drove the car much like my old 04, spirited to say the least. Oil temp shot up to 260.. I would back off each time and would drop off pretty quick. I was saddened to see it jump back so quickly, just with some full throttle runs. In AZ, it is safe to say this is not a track issue. After the test drive my friend and I watched his gauge very closely. It was short of the middle, somewhere around 240, he also drove very aggressively. Not to get off topic, but this was the first time I drove a new Z. I connected with it and fell in love, just like I did the first time I drove the 04 I bought. I have always been hard on Nissan for the coarseness of the VQ, but 37HR felt considerably better than my old DE. Anyway great car, but the temps were scary. I would be petrified to take it to a track day during the summer in AZ, in its stock form.

05-19-2014, 10:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
juld0zer Enthusiast Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Sydney Posts: 428 Drives: 11 Nissan 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 139	bit of a thread revival here.. the 335i is a (in early models twin) turbo car so oil temps would definitely be higher than an N/A engine because the engine oil is used to lubricate the turbo bearings so it's just another creator of oil heat. The issue is, the Nissan ECU is extremely overprotective. As many folks have pointed out on this forum, modern cars will most likely run oil temps of 100c/210f+ in just normal daily driving. Our engine's throttle response suffers significantly at oil temps of 94c/200f upwards - which in my opinion is ridiculously low for a sports car. I'm still not convinced that the VVEL system contributes that much heat that it has to be protected. Probably more like the VVEL linkages and small components would likely become weaker at higher engine temps... The CVTC system is often overlooked when it comes to oil heat. It relies on oil pressure to hydraulically adjust the cam angle and this generates a fair amount of heat. The other issue worth mentioning is the onboard oil temp gauge - surely it doesnt update in real time. I notice the throttle lag lingers for a while even afger the gauge reports <94*c oil temp. Has anyone hooked up a separate oil temp gauge with its own temp probe and compared? I cant remember what Cipher was reporting but it did seem to have a highish update frequency based on my log.