Oil temps: 335 comparitive observation.

tbonesteak · 05-17-2009, 10:25 AM

Hey guys,

ive been getting some seat time in my buddy's 2 month old 09 335i. Amazing car might i add. Anyways, i noticed a few interesting things about his oil temp gauge. His oil temp gauge has a center reading of 250. Even if you drive like a granny in 60 degree weather, the needle will sit on 250 degrees. The gauge tops out at 340. I didnt push it extremely hard....but did maybe 2-3 wot runs in 2-3 gear...and that shot the temps upto mmmm i'd say about 270. Whether it will climb higher upon more induced stress on the engine I have no idea. Is there a difference in the dynamics of 370 and 335 that makes it okay for the 335 to sit in 250 degree oil temp? Im assuming his 335 has an oil cooler installed for that's what i've been hearing from people on this board....but i was quite shocked to see that on his car. I cant see how it's good for the car to have its oil changed every 15k miles with those temps....Please advise. Thanks.

spearfish25 · 05-17-2009, 10:40 AM

This is interesting news. One of the issues I've had with judging how much of a problem I'm having with my Z's temps is that I don't know what the spec range for oil temperature is supposed to be in the first place. A number of people, including my dealer have said that 220 to 240 is the sweet spot. 260 has been getting people's attention and the Z goes into a limp mode around 280. Other's have said that the properties of regular oil degrade above 260F and that the engine has components that are temperature sensitive above that temp as well. The validity of these claims I don't know myself.

Could one car be engineered to withstand higher temps than another...sure, but I don't know if that's the case. What kind of oil is BMW recommending in the 335? If it's not synthetic, that either debunks the "oil breaks down over 260F" theory or suggests your buddy's car is running too hot as well.

Again, interesting to hear that a BMW runs consistently as hot or hotter than the Z is.

joeyz10 · 05-17-2009, 10:48 AM

IMO how can two totally diff. cars be running too hot as well? Maybe it is normal to be around 220 to 240. Now that I am paying more attention to my oil temp. I always stay arounf 220 even with bad traffic and when I drove it real hard the other night it went up to 280 which just about right because I was really really pushing the car like there is no tomorrow. but the car at 280 never went into limp mode. I was waiting for the limp mode when i saw 280 but never happened and after that the temp went down to 260 again.

tbonesteak · 05-17-2009, 11:43 AM

well judging from the layout of his gauge, I'm sure his car isn't running hot. 250 is in the dead smacked middle of the gauge and seems like it's the sweetspot. His car from what ive heard is also equipped with an oil cooler from factory. I think 335s run synthetic but not completely sure. Hmmmm im assuming oil is oil and there is no way that two identical oils will behave differently in different engines. Kinda confusing.

theDreamer · 05-17-2009, 11:44 AM

I think the issue with the Z, not sure about the 3 series, is the Z can go into limp mode. Does the 3 series have this build in? Has it happened to anyone on a BMW forum? Maybe our car can survive higher temps, but they put in the limp mode so a precaution currently.

tbonesteak · 05-17-2009, 11:49 AM

Yes 335 definitely has limp mode. All modern day cars do. If you remember when 335 had just came out, all the magazines bashed it because the oil would get too hot and the car would go into limp mode in 5 minutes of hard driving. BMW installed coolers from factory to remedy the problem.

antennahead · 05-17-2009, 12:01 PM

Has the metallurgy improved today to the point where these engines are designed to run with longevity at the higher temps we are seeing? Are we applying old school oil temp knowledge to a modern engine that is built with components that withstand higher temps? I would assume 280 is dangerous, or Nissan would not have placed limp mode at this threshold. I would still worry about prolonged driving at 260 to 280 personally, and with the 90+ heat of summer coming, that worries me.

John

Modshack · 05-17-2009, 02:06 PM

Some info from the intraweb...

"TORQUE CUT CONTROL (AT HIGH ENGINE OIL TEMPERATURE)
The ECM receives engine oil temperature signals from engine oil temperature sensor.
To avoid VVEL performance degradation, the ECM performs the engine torque cut control at high engine oil temperatures.
If engine oil temperature is too high, engine oil viscosity will change. As a result, engine oil pressure is
decreased. This control affects the VVEL operating angle by operating the VVEL actuator sub assembly.
If this control is operated, engine performance will decrease, then maximum engine speed is reduced a bit (Various levels of Limp Mode depending on temp).
.
The VVEL is a fairly complex system, with a relatively high amount of reciprocating mass and multiple linkages. The lubrication demands are very high to ensure Nissan's life expectancy goals are met. The shearing loads and high pressures exerted on the oil dictate a proper viscosity be maintained in order to resist lubrication failure due to these loads. Because an oil's ability to resist shearing weakens as it gets hot and thins out; a phenomenon plotted as a function of viscosity and shear stability known as the Stribeck curve, it is essential that the oil maintain it's specified viscosity at the appropriate operating temperature. This is why Nissan has engineered a fail-safe which limits power until the oil cools back to its specified operating temperature, because at that temperature it should be at the proper viscosity to withstand the high loads of the VVEL system.

CBRich · 05-17-2009, 04:07 PM

Great chart ModShack.

From BMW USA Site.

BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is recommended for scheduled engine oil changes.
BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil* (BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866)

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Approved Synthetic Oils for the US Market:

Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40
Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30
Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30

Use only oils with an API rating of SM or higher.

The choice of the right SAE grade is based on the climatic conditions in the region in which you normally drive your BMW.

Looks to me like they are approving some of your standard synthetic oils. Nothing spectacular.

sensi09 · 05-17-2009, 05:00 PM

The 335i is just designed to run at these temps with typical operating temps of roughly 240F. The 335i will run close to 300F or slightly above before hitting limp mode.

BTW, newer 335s have an oil temp gauge with 250 as the center reading while older 335s had 210 as the center mark.

sensi09 · 05-17-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBRich

Great chart ModShack.

From BMW USA Site.

BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is recommended for scheduled engine oil changes.
BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil* (BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866)

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Approved Synthetic Oils for the US Market:

Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40
Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30
Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30

Use only oils with an API rating of SM or higher.

The choice of the right SAE grade is based on the climatic conditions in the region in which you normally drive your BMW.

Looks to me like they are approving some of your standard synthetic oils. Nothing spectacular.

Mobil 0W-40 is excellent. And the synthetic castrol is a german formulation that is also very good, but can be difficult to source in the U.S.

spearfish25 · 05-17-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

How do they come up with the 'Engine Life' curve? That seems like an interpretation. Not sure that one can look at that and say "Ah crap, my car is usually 230F all summer so I've cut my engine life in half..."

Modshack · 05-17-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spearfish25

How do they come up with the 'Engine Life' curve? That seems like an interpretation. Not sure that one can look at that and say "Ah crap, my car is usually 230F all summer so I've cut my engine life in half..."

Just a representation ffrom a Porsche site discussing 300,000 mile 911's..
Don't take it as gospel, but also don't expect your engine to last as long at 250+ degrees as it will at 190...

Sardis · 05-17-2009, 07:58 PM

Interesting thread. My friend and I were driving around in his 09 335i Auto. We passed the Nissan dealer in Scottsdale and decided to test drive a new Z.

To our amazement the dealer handed us the keys and did not come with us. I drove the car much like my old 04, spirited to say the least. Oil temp shot up to 260.. I would back off each time and would drop off pretty quick. I was saddened to see it jump back so quickly, just with some full throttle runs.

In AZ, it is safe to say this is not a track issue. After the test drive my friend and I watched his gauge very closely. It was short of the middle, somewhere around 240, he also drove very aggressively.

Not to get off topic, but this was the first time I drove a new Z. I connected with it and fell in love, just like I did the first time I drove the 04 I bought.

I have always been hard on Nissan for the coarseness of the VQ, but 37HR felt considerably better than my old DE.

Anyway great car, but the temps were scary. I would be petrified to take it to a track day during the summer in AZ, in its stock form.

juld0zer · 05-19-2014, 10:33 PM

bit of a thread revival here..

the 335i is a (in early models twin) turbo car so oil temps would definitely be higher than an N/A engine because the engine oil is used to lubricate the turbo bearings so it's just another creator of oil heat.

The issue is, the Nissan ECU is extremely overprotective. As many folks have pointed out on this forum, modern cars will most likely run oil temps of 100*c/210f+ in just normal daily driving.

Our engine's throttle response suffers significantly at oil temps of 94*c/200f upwards - which in my opinion is ridiculously low for a sports car.

I'm still not convinced that the VVEL system contributes that much heat that it has to be protected. Probably more like the VVEL linkages and small components would likely become weaker at higher engine temps...

The CVTC system is often overlooked when it comes to oil heat. It relies on oil pressure to hydraulically adjust the cam angle and this generates a fair amount of heat.

The other issue worth mentioning is the onboard oil temp gauge - surely it doesnt update in real time. I notice the throttle lag lingers for a while even afger the gauge reports <94*c oil temp. Has anyone hooked up a separate oil temp gauge with its own temp probe and compared? I cant remember what Cipher was reporting but it did seem to have a highish update frequency based on my log.

05-17-2009, 10:25 AM	#1 (permalink)
tbonesteak Track Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Socal Posts: 914 Drives: MY09 MB 6MT Rep Power: 375	Oil temps: 335 comparitive observation. Hey guys, ive been getting some seat time in my buddy's 2 month old 09 335i. Amazing car might i add. Anyways, i noticed a few interesting things about his oil temp gauge. His oil temp gauge has a center reading of 250. Even if you drive like a granny in 60 degree weather, the needle will sit on 250 degrees. The gauge tops out at 340. I didnt push it extremely hard....but did maybe 2-3 wot runs in 2-3 gear...and that shot the temps upto mmmm i'd say about 270. Whether it will climb higher upon more induced stress on the engine I have no idea. Is there a difference in the dynamics of 370 and 335 that makes it okay for the 335 to sit in 250 degree oil temp? Im assuming his 335 has an oil cooler installed for that's what i've been hearing from people on this board....but i was quite shocked to see that on his car. I cant see how it's good for the car to have its oil changed every 15k miles with those temps....Please advise. Thanks.

05-17-2009, 11:44 AM	#5 (permalink)
theDreamer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 30,879 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 4210	I think the issue with the Z, not sure about the 3 series, is the Z can go into limp mode. Does the 3 series have this build in? Has it happened to anyone on a BMW forum? Maybe our car can survive higher temps, but they put in the limp mode so a precaution currently. __________________ theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

05-17-2009, 02:06 PM	#8 (permalink)
Modshack A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Greenville NC Posts: 2,883 Drives: 370Z Sport Rep Power: 976	Some info from the intraweb... "TORQUE CUT CONTROL (AT HIGH ENGINE OIL TEMPERATURE) The ECM receives engine oil temperature signals from engine oil temperature sensor. To avoid VVEL performance degradation, the ECM performs the engine torque cut control at high engine oil temperatures. If engine oil temperature is too high, engine oil viscosity will change. As a result, engine oil pressure is decreased. This control affects the VVEL operating angle by operating the VVEL actuator sub assembly. If this control is operated, engine performance will decrease, then maximum engine speed is reduced a bit (Various levels of Limp Mode depending on temp). . The VVEL is a fairly complex system, with a relatively high amount of reciprocating mass and multiple linkages. The lubrication demands are very high to ensure Nissan's life expectancy goals are met. The shearing loads and high pressures exerted on the oil dictate a proper viscosity be maintained in order to resist lubrication failure due to these loads. Because an oil's ability to resist shearing weakens as it gets hot and thins out; a phenomenon plotted as a function of viscosity and shear stability known as the Stribeck curve, it is essential that the oil maintain it's specified viscosity at the appropriate operating temperature. This is why Nissan has engineered a fail-safe which limits power until the oil cools back to its specified operating temperature, because at that temperature it should be at the proper viscosity to withstand the high loads of the VVEL system. __________________ Steal my car! (SOLD)...Now Porsche Cayman S Oil Cooler DIY: Here!

05-17-2009, 10:40 AM	#2 (permalink)
spearfish25 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 4,117 Drives: to work Rep Power: 1856	This is interesting news. One of the issues I've had with judging how much of a problem I'm having with my Z's temps is that I don't know what the spec range for oil temperature is supposed to be in the first place. A number of people, including my dealer have said that 220 to 240 is the sweet spot. 260 has been getting people's attention and the Z goes into a limp mode around 280. Other's have said that the properties of regular oil degrade above 260F and that the engine has components that are temperature sensitive above that temp as well. The validity of these claims I don't know myself. Could one car be engineered to withstand higher temps than another...sure, but I don't know if that's the case. What kind of oil is BMW recommending in the 335? If it's not synthetic, that either debunks the "oil breaks down over 260F" theory or suggests your buddy's car is running too hot as well. Again, interesting to hear that a BMW runs consistently as hot or hotter than the Z is.

05-17-2009, 10:48 AM	#3 (permalink)
joeyz10 Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: SoCal Posts: 248 Drives: 09 370z AT/ RRSS 08/ Rep Power: 16	IMO how can two totally diff. cars be running too hot as well? Maybe it is normal to be around 220 to 240. Now that I am paying more attention to my oil temp. I always stay arounf 220 even with bad traffic and when I drove it real hard the other night it went up to 280 which just about right because I was really really pushing the car like there is no tomorrow. but the car at 280 never went into limp mode. I was waiting for the limp mode when i saw 280 but never happened and after that the temp went down to 260 again.

05-17-2009, 11:43 AM	#4 (permalink)
tbonesteak Track Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Socal Posts: 914 Drives: MY09 MB 6MT Rep Power: 375	well judging from the layout of his gauge, I'm sure his car isn't running hot. 250 is in the dead smacked middle of the gauge and seems like it's the sweetspot. His car from what ive heard is also equipped with an oil cooler from factory. I think 335s run synthetic but not completely sure. Hmmmm im assuming oil is oil and there is no way that two identical oils will behave differently in different engines. Kinda confusing.

05-17-2009, 11:49 AM	#6 (permalink)
tbonesteak Track Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Socal Posts: 914 Drives: MY09 MB 6MT Rep Power: 375	Yes 335 definitely has limp mode. All modern day cars do. If you remember when 335 had just came out, all the magazines bashed it because the oil would get too hot and the car would go into limp mode in 5 minutes of hard driving. BMW installed coolers from factory to remedy the problem.

05-17-2009, 12:01 PM	#7 (permalink)
antennahead A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 15,181 Drives: '07 Z4 "M" Roadster Rep Power: 57	Has the metallurgy improved today to the point where these engines are designed to run with longevity at the higher temps we are seeing? Are we applying old school oil temp knowledge to a modern engine that is built with components that withstand higher temps? I would assume 280 is dangerous, or Nissan would not have placed limp mode at this threshold. I would still worry about prolonged driving at 260 to 280 personally, and with the 90+ heat of summer coming, that worries me. John

05-17-2009, 04:07 PM	#9 (permalink)
CBRich A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: SC Posts: 2,464 Drives: 370Z Rep Power: 544	Great chart ModShack. From BMW USA Site. BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is recommended for scheduled engine oil changes. BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil* (BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866) BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Approved Synthetic Oils for the US Market: Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30 Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40 Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30 Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30 Use only oils with an API rating of SM or higher. The choice of the right SAE grade is based on the climatic conditions in the region in which you normally drive your BMW. Looks to me like they are approving some of your standard synthetic oils. Nothing spectacular.

05-17-2009, 05:00 PM	#10 (permalink)
sensi09 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: so cal Posts: 449 Drives: _ Rep Power: 16	The 335i is just designed to run at these temps with typical operating temps of roughly 240F. The 335i will run close to 300F or slightly above before hitting limp mode. BTW, newer 335s have an oil temp gauge with 250 as the center reading while older 335s had 210 as the center mark.

05-17-2009, 07:58 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sardis Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: CA Posts: 72 Drives: EX Z Owner Rep Power: 15	Interesting thread. My friend and I were driving around in his 09 335i Auto. We passed the Nissan dealer in Scottsdale and decided to test drive a new Z. To our amazement the dealer handed us the keys and did not come with us. I drove the car much like my old 04, spirited to say the least. Oil temp shot up to 260.. I would back off each time and would drop off pretty quick. I was saddened to see it jump back so quickly, just with some full throttle runs. In AZ, it is safe to say this is not a track issue. After the test drive my friend and I watched his gauge very closely. It was short of the middle, somewhere around 240, he also drove very aggressively. Not to get off topic, but this was the first time I drove a new Z. I connected with it and fell in love, just like I did the first time I drove the 04 I bought. I have always been hard on Nissan for the coarseness of the VQ, but 37HR felt considerably better than my old DE. Anyway great car, but the temps were scary. I would be petrified to take it to a track day during the summer in AZ, in its stock form.

05-19-2014, 10:33 PM	#15 (permalink)
juld0zer Enthusiast Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Sydney Posts: 428 Drives: 11 Nissan 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 138	bit of a thread revival here.. the 335i is a (in early models twin) turbo car so oil temps would definitely be higher than an N/A engine because the engine oil is used to lubricate the turbo bearings so it's just another creator of oil heat. The issue is, the Nissan ECU is extremely overprotective. As many folks have pointed out on this forum, modern cars will most likely run oil temps of 100c/210f+ in just normal daily driving. Our engine's throttle response suffers significantly at oil temps of 94c/200f upwards - which in my opinion is ridiculously low for a sports car. I'm still not convinced that the VVEL system contributes that much heat that it has to be protected. Probably more like the VVEL linkages and small components would likely become weaker at higher engine temps... The CVTC system is often overlooked when it comes to oil heat. It relies on oil pressure to hydraulically adjust the cam angle and this generates a fair amount of heat. The other issue worth mentioning is the onboard oil temp gauge - surely it doesnt update in real time. I notice the throttle lag lingers for a while even afger the gauge reports <94*c oil temp. Has anyone hooked up a separate oil temp gauge with its own temp probe and compared? I cant remember what Cipher was reporting but it did seem to have a highish update frequency based on my log.