370Z Engine Failure

VCuomo · 07-15-2010, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

There is absolutely no reason a brand new engine (or even one with some miles on it) should drink up that much oil within one change interval unless something is seriously wrong with it.

While he might have avoided the need for a tow truck, that engine must have been fvcked from the day it was built.

Not true. Even on a broken-in engine he could have lost 3.5 quarts of oil over the 5700km that the OP drove and still be considered within spec (see Modshack's note above). On a new engine, he could have lost even more. That's why I said "So much for 'bad luck'."

Jordo! · 07-16-2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCuomo

Not true. Even on a broken-in engine he could have lost 3.5 quarts of oil over the 5700km that the OP drove and still be considered within spec (see Modshack's note above). On a new engine, he could have lost even more. That's why I said "So much for 'bad luck'."

Dude, that's just over 3,500 miles... no properly built engine should burn up over 3 qts of oil in that short an interval

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarmAndSCSI

Yep.

To make it as concise as possible - a factory-built VQ37VHR that consumes more than a quart every 3000 miles probably has an oil control defect caused by improper break-in. A Nissan engineer would agree with this, but as said above, Nissan's warranty CYA verbiage screws the consumer in this case.

I'm SO glad my wife trusted my engine-building experience and let me break our Z in quick and hard.

You are a fan of the "hard break-in" approach?

I'm really not sure what to believe, especially given that there is probably some break-in done by Nissan before assembly... can you detail your break-in method?

Also, is this for new cars (that might receive some factory break-in first) or newly built motors (done by you or a shop)?

sonic370 · 07-16-2010, 07:45 PM

Ok i guess i am going to give away my age here.But i can remember the time when checking your oil was a part of taking care of your ride. Most people now can't even find the dip stick (not talking about anyone here) With spark plugs lasting 100,000 mile or say they will tell you.And most all new engines lasting that long or longer checking your oil is a lost art form.

nolan1016 · 07-16-2010, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonic370

Ok i guess i am going to give away my age here.But i can remember the time when checking your oil was a part of taking care of your ride. Most people now can't even find the dip stick (not talking about anyone here) With spark plugs lasting 100,000 mile or say they will tell you.And most all new engines lasting that long or longer checking your oil is a lost art form.

This is true. I know it is proper maintenance to check your dip stick once every couple hundred miles I guarantee more than 90% of the moms driving mini vans don't even know where a dip stick is.

I think 3 Quartz is super ridiculous. I would say the max for me would be 1 quart and I have never even seen anything above that.

Lug · 07-18-2010, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolan1016

This is true. I know it is proper maintenance to check your dip stick once every couple hundred miles I guarantee more than 90% of the moms driving mini vans don't even know where a dip stick is.

I think 3 Quartz is super ridiculous. I would say the max for me would be 1 quart and I have never even seen anything above that.

90% of people's mom's here know where my dipstick is. Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week, don't forget to tip your waitress or bartender.

Zsteve · 07-18-2010, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug

90% of people's mom's here know where my dipstick is. Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week, don't forget to tip your waitress or bartender.

yea I think they said it was up your own arse tranny style. jk.

Matt · 07-18-2010, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolan1016

I think 3 Quartz is super ridiculous. I would say the max for me would be 1 quart and I have never even seen anything above that.

I have a 72 VW Bug and it burns AND leaks oil, and I've still never had to put 3 quarts of oil in it between changes.

VCuomo · 07-16-2010, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Dude, that's just over 3,500 miles... no properly built engine should burn up over 3 qts of oil in that short an interval

Dude, read Modshack's comment and do the math:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

BS...Most manufacturers have a 1 Qt per 1000 mile reference before they'll even talk to you about a potential defect..

3,500 miles X (1qt / 1,000 miles) = 3.5 quarts

And then factor in that a new car during its break-in period can burn even more...

WarmAndSCSI · 07-17-2010, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

You are a fan of the "hard break-in" approach?

I'm really not sure what to believe, especially given that there is probably some break-in done by Nissan before assembly... can you detail your break-in method?

Also, is this for new cars (that might receive some factory break-in first) or newly built motors (done by you or a shop)?

I advocate breaking in any new or rebuilt engine hard. It's not so much necessary with a new OEM engine or a block that has been properly plateau honed, but every engine with cylinder walls and piston rings needs a bit of break-in. Yes, rings come pre-lapped and cylinders plateau honed, but a "perfect seal" between the compression rings and the cylinder walls doesn't exist until x number of revolutions have been completed by the engine. It takes much longer on a rebuilt engine with rough cylinder walls and raw-faced rings.

I won't go into the specifics of the procedure on a rebuilt or new race engine, but for a new car it's best to take it for some hard pulls with lots of engine braking as soon as you have the opportunity to drive off the lot without dealer supervision. Our Z had 23 miles on it on the lot - probably one or two test-drives - but not too late to do a proper break-in!

We declined a test-drive and took it straight to a nice strip of private road to do a few pulls through the gears. You should start out at about 1/2 throttle, up to 5000 rpm or so, then start getting more aggressive with each set of pulls. Always downshift and use engine braking to slow the car down during this phase. It helps keep the cylinder walls from getting glazed by keeping oil from sitting on the cylinder walls during combustion @ idle. The engine braking action actually forces the piston rings out and scrapes as much oil as possible off the cylinder walls. Never let oil temperature get too high during this phase - you must let the engine cool off if too much heat accumulates. It should only take a few sets of pulls to establish a good ring seal... it's most important not to let your engine idle or sit at the same load or rpm for a long time. For the first few heat cycles of the new engine, you should make sure to do some aggressive pulls.

The purpose of this is to basically file down the peaks of the cross-hatching on the cylinder walls (some decent info and illustrations here: Stealth 316 - Engine Break-In) and create a proper surface finish on the rings. The depth of the cross-hatch "valleys" must be correct to allow proper oil retention without causing glazing (where oil ends up getting coked to the cylinder walls by the extreme heat of combustion).

Anyway, that's some basic info for you and how it applies to a new OEM engine. It's not critical to do this to a new OEM engine, but it definitely will ensure a better seal than if you hadn't done a similar break-in procedure. And contrary to popular belief, the only thing done to a car similar to the Z at the factory is a brief idle and "safety" run up/test to make sure all of the critical components of the car are in order. They do not stick every engine on an engine dyno to measure its performance or to break it in. This is done for most sport bike engines AFAIK, but not many car engines.

Matt · 07-17-2010, 03:28 PM

Enough about break-ins, let's talk about which engine oil is best to lube up our flimsy doors!

Jordo! · 07-19-2010, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarmAndSCSI

I advocate breaking in any new or rebuilt engine hard. It's not so much necessary with a new OEM engine or a block that has been properly plateau honed, but every engine with cylinder walls and piston rings needs a bit of break-in. Yes, rings come pre-lapped and cylinders plateau honed, but a "perfect seal" between the compression rings and the cylinder walls doesn't exist until x number of revolutions have been completed by the engine. It takes much longer on a rebuilt engine with rough cylinder walls and raw-faced rings.

I won't go into the specifics of the procedure on a rebuilt or new race engine, but for a new car it's best to take it for some hard pulls with lots of engine braking as soon as you have the opportunity to drive off the lot without dealer supervision. Our Z had 23 miles on it on the lot - probably one or two test-drives - but not too late to do a proper break-in!

We declined a test-drive and took it straight to a nice strip of private road to do a few pulls through the gears. You should start out at about 1/2 throttle, up to 5000 rpm or so, then start getting more aggressive with each set of pulls. Always downshift and use engine braking to slow the car down during this phase. It helps keep the cylinder walls from getting glazed by keeping oil from sitting on the cylinder walls during combustion @ idle. The engine braking action actually forces the piston rings out and scrapes as much oil as possible off the cylinder walls. Never let oil temperature get too high during this phase - you must let the engine cool off if too much heat accumulates. It should only take a few sets of pulls to establish a good ring seal... it's most important not to let your engine idle or sit at the same load or rpm for a long time. For the first few heat cycles of the new engine, you should make sure to do some aggressive pulls.

The purpose of this is to basically file down the peaks of the cross-hatching on the cylinder walls (some decent info and illustrations here: Stealth 316 - Engine Break-In) and create a proper surface finish on the rings. The depth of the cross-hatch "valleys" must be correct to allow proper oil retention without causing glazing (where oil ends up getting coked to the cylinder walls by the extreme heat of combustion).

Anyway, that's some basic info for you and how it applies to a new OEM engine. It's not critical to do this to a new OEM engine, but it definitely will ensure a better seal than if you hadn't done a similar break-in procedure. And contrary to popular belief, the only thing done to a car similar to the Z at the factory is a brief idle and "safety" run up/test to make sure all of the critical components of the car are in order. They do not stick every engine on an engine dyno to measure its performance or to break it in. This is done for most sport bike engines AFAIK, but not many car engines.

Thanks for the detailed response!

I have a good friend who is an engine builder and he also recommended the rev-up / coast-down method in order to heat cycle, but warned against reving up to redline for the first 800-1000 miles, so it is similar to your procedure, but a little bit less "hard" I guess. However, this was for a rebuilt engine, so not sure if he has different advice for a new engine.

WarmAndSCSI · 07-19-2010, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Thanks for the detailed response!

I have a good friend who is an engine builder and he also recommended the rev-up / coast-down method in order to heat cycle, but warned against reving up to redline for the first 800-1000 miles, so it is similar to your procedure, but a little bit less "hard" I guess. However, this was for a rebuilt engine, so not sure if he has different advice for a new engine.

That's great advice too, but for a factory fresh engine, it doesn't matter. The only thing you have to worry about is the transmission/clutch, be it automatic or manual. The engine should be ready to go from the moment you fire it up for the first time - you only will encounter problems if you're too easy (read: follow the owner's manual procedure) on it for the first few hundred to a thousand miles. That is the biggest mistake people make. Driving it as you would normally = OK. Driving it hard = OK. Driving it too soft = bad. That's as simple as I can put it.

For a rebuilt engine, you get the fastest ring sealing by flogging the **** out of the engine without overheating it for the first 50 miles. You DO have to change your oil after your first idle/leak test or first trip, however. Honestly, this is how many drag racing teams have always broken in their engines - and those last at least a whole season of abuse. This is NOT the advice I'd give to somebody I built an engine for or somebody who bought a crate engine - it's way too risky for somebody who isn't disciplined in breaking in a new engine. I must have done this almost a dozen times now, and I've never had any oil consumption problems except for seal/gasket leaks. I've in fact seen a rebuilt engine never achieve good ring sealing when the owner didn't follow my hard break-in advice. I can almost guarantee the engine would have sealed perfectly if it had been broken in hard.

mhcoss · 03-16-2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarmAndSCSI

That's great advice too, but for a factory fresh engine, it doesn't matter. The only thing you have to worry about is the transmission/clutch, be it automatic or manual. The engine should be ready to go from the moment you fire it up for the first time - you only will encounter problems if you're too easy (read: follow the owner's manual procedure) on it for the first few hundred to a thousand miles. That is the biggest mistake people make. Driving it as you would normally = OK. Driving it hard = OK. Driving it too soft = bad. That's as simple as I can put it.

For a rebuilt engine, you get the fastest ring sealing by flogging the **** out of the engine without overheating it for the first 50 miles. You DO have to change your oil after your first idle/leak test or first trip, however. Honestly, this is how many drag racing teams have always broken in their engines - and those last at least a whole season of abuse. This is NOT the advice I'd give to somebody I built an engine for or somebody who bought a crate engine - it's way too risky for somebody who isn't disciplined in breaking in a new engine. I must have done this almost a dozen times now, and I've never had any oil consumption problems except for seal/gasket leaks. I've in fact seen a rebuilt engine never achieve good ring sealing when the owner didn't follow my hard break-in advice. I can almost guarantee the engine would have sealed perfectly if it had been broken in hard.

You make some good arguments. I am picking up my brand new Z in two days. I however trust the engineers who designed the engine more then I trust your advice.

ImportConvert · 03-16-2012, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarmAndSCSI

I advocate breaking in any new or rebuilt engine hard. It's not so much necessary with a new OEM engine or a block that has been properly plateau honed, but every engine with cylinder walls and piston rings needs a bit of break-in. Yes, rings come pre-lapped and cylinders plateau honed, but a "perfect seal" between the compression rings and the cylinder walls doesn't exist until x number of revolutions have been completed by the engine. It takes much longer on a rebuilt engine with rough cylinder walls and raw-faced rings.

I won't go into the specifics of the procedure on a rebuilt or new race engine, but for a new car it's best to take it for some hard pulls with lots of engine braking as soon as you have the opportunity to drive off the lot without dealer supervision. Our Z had 23 miles on it on the lot - probably one or two test-drives - but not too late to do a proper break-in!

We declined a test-drive and took it straight to a nice strip of private road to do a few pulls through the gears. You should start out at about 1/2 throttle, up to 5000 rpm or so, then start getting more aggressive with each set of pulls. Always downshift and use engine braking to slow the car down during this phase. It helps keep the cylinder walls from getting glazed by keeping oil from sitting on the cylinder walls during combustion @ idle. The engine braking action actually forces the piston rings out and scrapes as much oil as possible off the cylinder walls. Never let oil temperature get too high during this phase - you must let the engine cool off if too much heat accumulates. It should only take a few sets of pulls to establish a good ring seal... it's most important not to let your engine idle or sit at the same load or rpm for a long time. For the first few heat cycles of the new engine, you should make sure to do some aggressive pulls.

The purpose of this is to basically file down the peaks of the cross-hatching on the cylinder walls (some decent info and illustrations here: Stealth 316 - Engine Break-In) and create a proper surface finish on the rings. The depth of the cross-hatch "valleys" must be correct to allow proper oil retention without causing glazing (where oil ends up getting coked to the cylinder walls by the extreme heat of combustion).

Anyway, that's some basic info for you and how it applies to a new OEM engine. It's not critical to do this to a new OEM engine, but it definitely will ensure a better seal than if you hadn't done a similar break-in procedure. And contrary to popular belief, the only thing done to a car similar to the Z at the factory is a brief idle and "safety" run up/test to make sure all of the critical components of the car are in order. They do not stick every engine on an engine dyno to measure its performance or to break it in. This is done for most sport bike engines AFAIK, but not many car engines.

I did this off the dealer lot as well, but only up to 4K rpm as prescribed. Varied rpms, and did it between 3rd and 5th on the freeway, and randomly for the next 500 miles.

Then, I began edging toward the 7500rpm redline until I finally reached it at 1200 miles.

Problem with a new car is breaking in the driveline and the rings are two different types of driving somewhat.

sonic370 · 03-16-2012, 08:06 PM

just my opinion not trying to stir the pot.............
most everyone on here work hard for their money and love their cars and when you buy a 40 grand sports car you should know how to care for your ride......

how hard can it be to check the oil at each fill up....

the vq is a rock solid engine imho and has all the awards to prove it.

07-17-2010, 03:28 PM	#10 (permalink)
Matt A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Augusta, GA Age: 42 Posts: 1,680 Drives: 2010 Avalanche LT Rep Power: 19	Enough about break-ins, let's talk about which engine oil is best to lube up our flimsy doors! __________________ "Any man who can drive a 370z while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the Z the attention it deserves." Albert Einstein....modified.

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07-16-2010, 07:45 PM	#3 (permalink)
sonic370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: Orange Texas Posts: 1,574 Drives: 09 370Z Sports PGK Rep Power: 19	Ok i guess i am going to give away my age here.But i can remember the time when checking your oil was a part of taking care of your ride. Most people now can't even find the dip stick (not talking about anyone here) With spark plugs lasting 100,000 mile or say they will tell you.And most all new engines lasting that long or longer checking your oil is a lost art form.

03-16-2012, 08:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
sonic370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: Orange Texas Posts: 1,574 Drives: 09 370Z Sports PGK Rep Power: 19	just my opinion not trying to stir the pot............. most everyone on here work hard for their money and love their cars and when you buy a 40 grand sports car you should know how to care for your ride...... how hard can it be to check the oil at each fill up.... the vq is a rock solid engine imho and has all the awards to prove it.