Mt Tam I am's Driving Journal

wstar · 10-23-2013, 12:29 PM

The rotor thing plagued me for about a year before I got mine sorted out. Went through all kinds of iterations on brake setup changes and kept having problems. There's no one answer to keep it from recurring regularly, but I can offer a mixed bag of various things that help:

1) Obviously, quality rotors. If the rotors genuinely have bad runout from the factory, there's not much that's gonna stop it from getting worse from pad deposits and heat. Of all the random brands and types I've tried on this car, the ones that held up the best were DBA-brand 1-piece and whatever 2-piece it is that Stillen's including in their APRacing BBK (not sure whose rotors they are really). You can check runout at initial install with a dial gauge mounted firmly relative to the spindle. Sometimes if the runout is minor, it can be corrected by remounting the rotor at a different hole offset to let the small rotor/hub variances level each other out (sort of like what a good tire place does with tires and wheels). There are only 5 positions to try, so just iterate until you get minimum runout on the dial gauge.

2) Pads! Often "rotor" problems are really pad deposit problems. Some pads are better or worse under different driving conditions about leaving patchy deposits on the rotor. Once any uneven deposit layer has built up, it tends to self-reinforce the pattern and make itself worse over time (like the ripples that develop in a dirt/gravel driveway self-reinforce from the suspension bounce of cars driving over them). Some of this isn't so much about a pad being universally "bad", just not suited to conditions (cold street driving vs hot race driving, etc). Using a very race-only pad on your car while you DD it between events can lead to problems. So can tracking street pads (although they generally just burn off anyways...).

3) Pad Bedding! Google about it, read ten different versions of the instructions for bedding different pads. They're all shooting for the same goal, and it's tricky, but if you read enough versions of the process you get a feel for what's really going on. Drive the pads with minimal braking for a while first just to let them seat level and wear into the right shape first (this is often left out of instructions it seems). Don't over-cook things on the break-in, and take extra care with the cool-down period after bedding. Try to time it out so you can get on a highway for half an hour at that point, in no traffic.

4) Stopping/Parking habits: don't ever bring the car to a halt on the brakes and stand on them. Ever. But especially any time the system's hot. That just bakes pad material into one spot on the rotor. Try to bring the car down to a very slow roll, then get off the brakes and let the car roll to a stop for the last few feet, especially parking or if you're going to be stuck at a light. It's hard in traffic, so just don't drive in commuter traffic if you can help it.

5) Driving habits, esp on-track: try to make your braking zones shorter and harder. You may get from 120->80 both ways, but doing it more abruptly (without locking the wheels, of course) generates less heat than dragging out the braking zone over a longer stretch. Less overheating -> more life. Try not to brake hard when the car isn't going straight, that puts odd sideways stress on things too. Trail-braking is fine, but that's different than slamming on the brakes too late when you've already turned in, which there's a hundred other reasons not to do.

6) Front ducts help a ton with not overheating the front rotors on this car.

And I know they're expensive, but the single best thing I've done for my brake situation is switching to Carbon-Lorraine's pads. They're not finicky about break-in procedure (they really don't even have a break-in procedure), and seem to maintain themselves and the rotors really well even under varying conditions (although they're still not ideal for a ton of street driving). They'll clean off deposits from street pads if you want to switch back and forth, too. The only real downside is the cost, but IMHO it costs less than throwing out barely-used rotors on a regular basis and having frustrating track weekends.

I'm using the CL pads now on the Stillen/APRacing BBK and I love this setup (+ Stillen's ducts + RBF600). I also tried the CL pads on the stock calipers (+ Stillens ducts + RBF600) with DBA 4000-series one-piece rotors and that went really well, too.

Mt Tam I am · 10-23-2013, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackcherry20

sounds like kind of a disappointing day for you. sorry.
but still, to even be on such a track is exciting eh? I know when I get on my local (really small) track I love it that I can say I ahd my Z on track at KilKare. Local people are impressed. LOL

on the dehydration, I guess you were distracted by everything else that day. Lots going on so it isn't any surprise you got sidetracked.

BTW-the MVSCC (my auto club) has asked me to be on their planning board.
I accepted so I get to help run the club and give input on events etc... Kind of excited about it. although basically it's just another person to help out. LOL

A bit disappointing but certainly well worth attending, even with warped rotors I still beat my previous best lap time by nearly 3 seconds. My old record became a normal time.

I will return in all liklihood many times next year as the club needs a substitute track for Laguna Seca. This track is about 15 minutes closer to me, yet feels much further away. It is way out in the country while Laguna has a large wealthy city nearby.

TerribleONE · 10-23-2013, 04:48 PM

Really wish I could go run Laguna but I think my car is way to loud... Had the privilage of riding it on my GSXR1000 a few years ago and it was a blast.. So much different than Willow Springs.. LOVE the corkscrew

Mt Tam I am · 10-23-2013, 04:56 PM

Often when returning home after a HPDE, I become a bit sad that the fun is over and I'll have to wait for another event. On the way home I had one of those legal opportunities to stay at the limit while passing everybody driving in the left lane. It was an off ramp that takes you from one freeway to another, all with a 70 MPH limit. It was a long left hander so I could gas it all the way without fuel starvation striking. The little lady sat up stiff in her chair as she does not like these sorts of situations as I do.

When it was over I was pumped and I said "I love these moments"

And she said "I know you do."

Two more stories later. Back to work.

Mt Tam I am · 10-23-2013, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerribleONE

Really wish I could go run Laguna but I think my car is way to loud... Had the privilage of riding it on my GSXR1000 a few years ago and it was a blast.. So much different than Willow Springs.. LOVE the corkscrew

I am only at 85db with Stillen CBE and Gen 3 intakes. 90db is all you need to beat.

On a bike Laguna would be wild. I see where the bikes once had a berm to contend with that has since been beaten down by traffic.

TerribleONE · 10-23-2013, 05:08 PM

I may have to take some readings, I wonder how hard it is to track down a decible meter and how much they cost.. I guess I could always avoid going WOT by the sound tower. I know my car is a lot quieter than those running F.I exhausts NA..

Mt Tam I am · 10-23-2013, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerribleONE

I may have to take some readings, I wonder how hard it is to track down a decible meter and how much they cost.. I guess I could always avoid going WOT by the sound tower. I know my car is a lot quieter than those running F.I exhausts NA..

Many have their pipes angled away from the tower just for this reason.

Digital Sound Level Meter
Model: Digital 2055 | Catalog #: 33-099
$49.99
Digital Sound Level Meter : Sound meters | RadioShack.com

I'd love to invite you.

blackcherry20 · 10-24-2013, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt Tam I am

A bit disappointing but certainly well worth attending, even with warped rotors I still beat my previous best lap time by nearly 3 seconds. My old record became a normal time.

I will return in all liklihood many times next year as the club needs a substitute track for Laguna Seca. This track is about 15 minutes closer to me, yet feels much further away. It is way out in the country while Laguna has a large wealthy city nearby.

of course! ANY track time is good time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt Tam I am

Often when returning home after a HPDE, I become a bit sad that the fun is over and I'll have to wait for another event. On the way home I had one of those legal opportunities to stay at the limit while passing everybody driving in the left lane. It was an off ramp that takes you from one freeway to another, all with a 70 MPH limit. It was a long left hander so I could gas it all the way without fuel starvation striking. The little lady sat up stiff in her chair as she does not like these sorts of situations as I do.

When it was over I was pumped and I said "I love these moments"

And she said "I know you do."

Two more stories later. Back to work.

I love those moments too! ohhhh-love that put you back in your seat and ZEE YA!!!

blackcherry20 · 10-24-2013, 07:48 AM

MVSCC Season Highlights - YouTube

Mt Tam I am · 10-24-2013, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackcherry20

MVSCC Season Highlights - YouTube

I saw a 370 at 37 seconds. Looking good.

blackcherry20 · 10-24-2013, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt Tam I am

I saw a 370 at 37 seconds. Looking good.

My mini is in teh green mohawk helmet...she is riding with another member of the club. She has the need for speed gene too!

Mt Tam I am · 10-30-2013, 11:03 AM

Last night I visited my mom for dinner and left in the dark. I made the perfect turn at full ability.

Later when I got through the traffic, a 911 awaited me, I thought. He and the van peeled off leaving me alone on my daily twisty drive. I failed to turn off VDC but was rewarded by never having it go off, until the uphill hairpin.

I told myself "Nobody seemed to be on the road", and as I thought this, I saw a car up ahead. An FRS no less. He signaled that he was turning left and got in the 90 degree left turn lane. So I went around him then made a 45 degree left (in the correct lane). The FRS decided he would change his mind and go my way. He missed me by at least a foot so I won't complain.

Some idiot bike rider was out wearing dark clothing. I saw him and put a tire in the other lane and went around.

It never rained all day as it had threatened. All in all a great drive.

MightyBobo · 10-30-2013, 01:00 PM

Being both a motorcycle and bicycle rider, I really dislike other riders who dont wear visible clothing at night. Just asking for trouble.

Mt Tam I am · 11-15-2013, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyBobo

Being both a motorcycle and bicycle rider, I really dislike other riders who dont wear visible clothing at night. Just asking for trouble.

Good. I have no desire to hit anything or anybody, so if I can see you, I will not.

paperboy42190 · 11-25-2013, 04:31 AM

wow nice stories haha

10-23-2013, 12:29 PM	#361 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	The rotor thing plagued me for about a year before I got mine sorted out. Went through all kinds of iterations on brake setup changes and kept having problems. There's no one answer to keep it from recurring regularly, but I can offer a mixed bag of various things that help: 1) Obviously, quality rotors. If the rotors genuinely have bad runout from the factory, there's not much that's gonna stop it from getting worse from pad deposits and heat. Of all the random brands and types I've tried on this car, the ones that held up the best were DBA-brand 1-piece and whatever 2-piece it is that Stillen's including in their APRacing BBK (not sure whose rotors they are really). You can check runout at initial install with a dial gauge mounted firmly relative to the spindle. Sometimes if the runout is minor, it can be corrected by remounting the rotor at a different hole offset to let the small rotor/hub variances level each other out (sort of like what a good tire place does with tires and wheels). There are only 5 positions to try, so just iterate until you get minimum runout on the dial gauge. 2) Pads! Often "rotor" problems are really pad deposit problems. Some pads are better or worse under different driving conditions about leaving patchy deposits on the rotor. Once any uneven deposit layer has built up, it tends to self-reinforce the pattern and make itself worse over time (like the ripples that develop in a dirt/gravel driveway self-reinforce from the suspension bounce of cars driving over them). Some of this isn't so much about a pad being universally "bad", just not suited to conditions (cold street driving vs hot race driving, etc). Using a very race-only pad on your car while you DD it between events can lead to problems. So can tracking street pads (although they generally just burn off anyways...). 3) Pad Bedding! Google about it, read ten different versions of the instructions for bedding different pads. They're all shooting for the same goal, and it's tricky, but if you read enough versions of the process you get a feel for what's really going on. Drive the pads with minimal braking for a while first just to let them seat level and wear into the right shape first (this is often left out of instructions it seems). Don't over-cook things on the break-in, and take extra care with the cool-down period after bedding. Try to time it out so you can get on a highway for half an hour at that point, in no traffic. 4) Stopping/Parking habits: don't ever bring the car to a halt on the brakes and stand on them. Ever. But especially any time the system's hot. That just bakes pad material into one spot on the rotor. Try to bring the car down to a very slow roll, then get off the brakes and let the car roll to a stop for the last few feet, especially parking or if you're going to be stuck at a light. It's hard in traffic, so just don't drive in commuter traffic if you can help it. 5) Driving habits, esp on-track: try to make your braking zones shorter and harder. You may get from 120->80 both ways, but doing it more abruptly (without locking the wheels, of course) generates less heat than dragging out the braking zone over a longer stretch. Less overheating -> more life. Try not to brake hard when the car isn't going straight, that puts odd sideways stress on things too. Trail-braking is fine, but that's different than slamming on the brakes too late when you've already turned in, which there's a hundred other reasons not to do. 6) Front ducts help a ton with not overheating the front rotors on this car. And I know they're expensive, but the single best thing I've done for my brake situation is switching to Carbon-Lorraine's pads. They're not finicky about break-in procedure (they really don't even have a break-in procedure), and seem to maintain themselves and the rotors really well even under varying conditions (although they're still not ideal for a ton of street driving). They'll clean off deposits from street pads if you want to switch back and forth, too. The only real downside is the cost, but IMHO it costs less than throwing out barely-used rotors on a regular basis and having frustrating track weekends. I'm using the CL pads now on the Stillen/APRacing BBK and I love this setup (+ Stillen's ducts + RBF600). I also tried the CL pads on the stock calipers (+ Stillens ducts + RBF600) with DBA 4000-series one-piece rotors and that went really well, too. Mt Tam I am likes this. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

10-23-2013, 04:48 PM	#363 (permalink)
TerribleONE A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Socal Posts: 10,203 Drives: WOT Rep Power: 5850	Really wish I could go run Laguna but I think my car is way to loud... Had the privilage of riding it on my GSXR1000 a few years ago and it was a blast.. So much different than Willow Springs.. LOVE the corkscrew __________________ 638WHP 541WTQ @ 13.5PSI Build thread

10-23-2013, 04:56 PM	#364 (permalink)
Mt Tam I am A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: California Posts: 10,709 Drives: 370Z T/S/N 6MT & XKE Rep Power: 3842	Often when returning home after a HPDE, I become a bit sad that the fun is over and I'll have to wait for another event. On the way home I had one of those legal opportunities to stay at the limit while passing everybody driving in the left lane. It was an off ramp that takes you from one freeway to another, all with a 70 MPH limit. It was a long left hander so I could gas it all the way without fuel starvation striking. The little lady sat up stiff in her chair as she does not like these sorts of situations as I do. When it was over I was pumped and I said "I love these moments" And she said "I know you do." Two more stories later. Back to work. blackcherry20 likes this. __________________ "Does the carpet match the drapes? NO!!! I don't date bald women." Nissan Motorsports 34R Oil Cooler. Stillen CBE. Hotchkis Sport Sway Bars. KW Variant 3 Coilover System. Stillen Gen3 CAI. Michelin Pilot Super Sport. Stillen Brake Ducts. Carbotech™ XP10/XP8 Pads. Z1 Front Rotors. Z1 Stainless Brake Lines. Two degrees of camber

10-23-2013, 05:08 PM	#366 (permalink)
TerribleONE A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Socal Posts: 10,203 Drives: WOT Rep Power: 5850	I may have to take some readings, I wonder how hard it is to track down a decible meter and how much they cost.. I guess I could always avoid going WOT by the sound tower. I know my car is a lot quieter than those running F.I exhausts NA.. __________________ 638WHP 541WTQ @ 13.5PSI Build thread

10-24-2013, 07:48 AM	#369 (permalink)
blackcherry20 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2012 Location: Southern Ohio Posts: 22,749 Drives: ‘17 badazz Z51 Rep Power: 240458	MVSCC Season Highlights - YouTube __________________ Grand Sport Corvette Arctic White

10-30-2013, 11:03 AM	#372 (permalink)
Mt Tam I am A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: California Posts: 10,709 Drives: 370Z T/S/N 6MT & XKE Rep Power: 3842	Last night I visited my mom for dinner and left in the dark. I made the perfect turn at full ability. Later when I got through the traffic, a 911 awaited me, I thought. He and the van peeled off leaving me alone on my daily twisty drive. I failed to turn off VDC but was rewarded by never having it go off, until the uphill hairpin. I told myself "Nobody seemed to be on the road", and as I thought this, I saw a car up ahead. An FRS no less. He signaled that he was turning left and got in the 90 degree left turn lane. So I went around him then made a 45 degree left (in the correct lane). The FRS decided he would change his mind and go my way. He missed me by at least a foot so I won't complain. Some idiot bike rider was out wearing dark clothing. I saw him and put a tire in the other lane and went around. It never rained all day as it had threatened. All in all a great drive. __________________ "Does the carpet match the drapes? NO!!! I don't date bald women." Nissan Motorsports 34R Oil Cooler. Stillen CBE. Hotchkis Sport Sway Bars. KW Variant 3 Coilover System. Stillen Gen3 CAI. Michelin Pilot Super Sport. Stillen Brake Ducts. Carbotech™ XP10/XP8 Pads. Z1 Front Rotors. Z1 Stainless Brake Lines. Two degrees of camber

10-30-2013, 01:00 PM	#373 (permalink)
MightyBobo A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 8,465 Drives: No cars; only bikes Rep Power: 52	Being both a motorcycle and bicycle rider, I really dislike other riders who dont wear visible clothing at night. Just asking for trouble. blackcherry20 likes this. __________________ I don't own a car anymore.

11-25-2013, 04:31 AM	#375 (permalink)
paperboy42190 Base Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Alhambra, CA Posts: 193 Drives: 2007 Acura TL Type-S Rep Power: 13	wow nice stories haha

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