For a general use handgun it's hard to beat a 9mm. Not a lot of kick (but more than a .22LR/WMR) but enough power for home protection, if needed. Ammo is cheap, especially if you get FMJs for plinking. Many styles of bullets available. With a $500 budget, you should be able to get a nice Glock 9mm but, for just having fun, I'd go with something a little cheaper. YMMV

Edit: I have an old 9mm Walther P-4 (German military/police version of the P-38). It's a heavy gun but very reliable, has an excellent unobtrusive safety system, and is easy to break down and clean. I'd buy another P-4/P-38 in a heartbeat.

Any cons on buying used? Thanks!

Buy from a reputable dealer and you should be OK. Don't be afraid to ask to break the gun down for inspection.

If buying from an individual, the usual kick-the-tires routine should be used. Most guns are, by nature, pretty rugged and will last a life-time (and longer) with a little TLC. But if they've been abused, avoid at all costs.

Guess I'm going to hold off on a .22 rifle for now. I started looking at 9mm handguns and I am liking the Walther PPQ. Not going to lie...it looks cool.

Walther PPQ is an exceptional handgun. Very accurate, very rugged, exceptional trigger out of the box. I have 6000 rounds through mine...bought a second one after dumping my POS Glock 19. Only handgun I've ever owned that I liked enough to own two of the same model. The PPQ is superior to the Glock in nearly every way.

Hi-point

I love sig. The sp2022 is everything sig but in a poly frame. $399 retail brand new for a 9mm with 15 round mag.

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If I were only going to have one pistol, it would be either my G17 or 19. Reliable, cheap(ish), parts are cheap and everywhere. It's the iPod of guns. Sure, there are better options out there, but there's a reason it's the go-to. If you're going to end up with a collection, get whatever you want since firearms breed like rabbits apparently. Or, you could scrap the whole 9mm idea and go buy yourself a 1911. Every man should own at least one .45.

As far as the .22lr rifle, go get a used Ruger 10/22 and build it up. They're dirt cheap and easy to work on. I found my old one in my parents house years back. Literally kept nothing but the receiver. New stock, barrel, trigger, bolt, etc. Now the only problem is finding decent .22 ammo since the manufacturers gave up on it to make calibers people were stockpiling. :rolleyes:

I have a Sig P229 in .40 caliber that I've owned since about 1997. Fantastic handgun. (It's for sale, by the way...) but it's a German frame from before the days they were made in the US.

Since then, I've been warned repeatedly by firearms trainers and Sig armorers about the quality of Sig manufacture since the changeover in 2003. Sig quality, or lack thereof, has been discussed a lot on a lot of firearms forums for several years now. Before buying a current Sig, I'd cruise the forums a lot, Google "Sig quality control", and investigate the issue.

http://SSEquine.net/P229Ls.jpg

I've heard the same things about current Sig quality. I've had no issues with my P226 XFive, but that's a little different than the regular product line. It is so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up. I've got a high-dollar Les Baer bullseye gun, and the Sig outshoots it handily.

For $500 i would suggest the Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm, add the Apex Tactical 3.5# trigger and you'll have a very reliable shooter. I have probably put 5k rounds through mine without an issue. If its a carry gun, I would leave the trigger at stock weight.

In your price range, you cant go wrong with the M&P, Glock or Springfield XD/XDM, its just preference.

I love my my M&P compact. It's great. I have the Apex trigger but I haven't put it in yet. With a mini flashlight and Crimson Trace grip it's a great concealed/car pistol.

I have an M&P 9L. After I put an Apex DCAEK in it to give it a reasonable trigger, and a hand-fitted Storm Lake barrel to correct its accuracy problems (earlier M&Ps were known for poor or inconsistent lock-up) it's at least a functional pistol. Clearly inferior to the PPQ, but it's functional and accurate now. It does auto-forward about 85% of the time on magazine insertion. Not really an issue, but I wish it would either do it 100% of the time, or 0%. Generally, M&Ps are fairly highly regarded these days. Reportedly their quality and consistency has improved since I bought mine several years ago, according to Louis Awerbuck at the last pistol course I took in August. My decision to try a Walther PPQ two years ago was on the advice of Larry Vickers, who is very enthusiastic about that pistol. It was great advice for me. He also advised against current 9mm Glocks (Gen 3 and Gen 4), advice which I ignored but later found to be absolutely correct.


/

I use the M&P for USCA 2 gun and USPSA matches so I like that the glocks and M&P have lots of accessories and mags available. I have heard issues with earlier productions needing the barrels replaced, but mine is a 2012 model and it seems to be pretty accurate when I dont throw my shots off.

The PPQ is a nice pistol and has a good trigger out of the box. Very similar to the HK p30 but cheaper.

What issues have you seen with the Gen3/4 glocks? I've been eyeing a gen4 G19 to replace my gen2.

If I had the coin, I'd love to take one of the Vickers courses. I highly recommend anyone that is into firearms to try a 2 gun or 3 gun competition. Its the most fun i've had outside of my z. :)

Erratic ejection, especially brass-to-face. It's a pretty notorious issue with later versions of the Gen 3 and current Gen 4 Glocks in 9mm.

As to Vickers...I've taken a couple of courses from him. Wouldn't do it again...lots of good trainers out there at his level. He's not my favorite.

Click image for video


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My G17L threw a casing right back at me, which bounced off the underside of my hat and lodged between the bridge of my nose and safety glasses. It took a major act of willpower to slowly put the pistol down and get it out. :rofl2:

I've seen the talks too. Seems to very firearm specific! On ar15.com and others the sp2022 has a lot of praise while the 556 ak style in 7.62 is a nightmare. My 556 in 5.56 is great. Zero issues.

Then there's negatives I've seen with smith m&p. two guys in police academy had jam and stove pipe issues along with my brother in law. To me I think smith is junk. Everyone has there own experiences though.

Ouch... I always tell the wife to wear a regular shirt when going to the range. She wore a tank top a few weeks back and got burned on the fun bags.

Never had any issues with Sig either. My P226 Tacops is around 3 years old, and the only malfunction I've had with it was a single failure to feed when trying out my own "subsonic" handloads.

EDIT: Specifically the Tacops does indeed have issues in general. But that has to do with the not Mec-Gar made magazines, and not Sig itself per se.

Well, that two people with no problems. Sigs must be good to go then....:icon17:

And people that don't own a USA sig and just hear things means they must be bad?:icon14:

So because I decided to contribute my own personal experience of owning Sig firearms into the discussion, I am declaring there have never been issues with Sig?

Gotcha.

:rolleyes:

EDIT: Btw, out of around 20 people I know that own Sig USA made firearms, one has had issues with his. And he got his switched to a new one with no issues, no hassle, no problems whatsoever.

These firearms include everything from P226 & 229, X-five & X-Six, their piston AR series etc. etc.

So, from what I personally gather, is that the minority that has had issues with their firearms are indeed a very vocal minority. I also guess you are probably going to hate me for saying I know about 200% more people that have had Glocks catastrophic failure on them and M&P's that won't feed anything. ;)

I know a guy with a HiPoint 9mm that has had no problems. I know a couple of guys with DPMS rifles that run reliably. I even know a guy with a Rock River Arms rifle that works fine. Amazing things happen on a one-off basis in manufacturing that defy the apparent odds. Every company can make a good individual pistol every now and then on any given day, just as any of of them can make a bad one. The question is....what is the liklihood? When companies pay less attention to their quality control, when they start using MIM parts farmed out to the lowest bidder, when they start trying to save money by cutting corners in the manufacturing process...the liklihood drops. In this thread, we have at least two guys who got lucky. I'm pleased for you. I personally wouldn't buy a modern Sig because I perceive that the odds aren't good enough to risk it. I can see how your opinion would be different.

You've had issues with Rock River ARs? I've never had a problem with mine, and neither has anyone I know.

I see what you're saying and I've seen issues with some rifles. I've never seen or experienced a sig hand gun problem though!! I'd trust my sp2022 over many many others!!

:rofl2::rofl2:



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So you've personally had issues, or did you read about it online?

I think that one's history with a specific gun is far more important than the reputation of the brand. If you read the internet gun forums, you'd assume that Glock must make a completely reliable firearm. My Glock 19 had serious ejection problems. It was not reliable (happens to be a recurring theme with Glock these days, but that's another issue). The converse is also true. The brand itself can have issues, but if your gun works well, that's the important thing.

Most of the guys that I know, these days now that people carry firearms more than they used to and given the number of cops that I hang around with and shoot with, will usually never carry a gun of any brand for self defense unless they have a few hundred rounds through that specific gun so that its reliability can be determined. Man, it never used to be that way. Used to be...you bought a Sig, or a S&W, or a Beretta and you could just bet your life that it was going to be reliable enough to trust your life with. Now...not so much.

http://www.the370z.com/2809681-post3455.html

An individual person's experience with an individual firearm brand pretty much means nothing. One-off anecdotes, good or bad, tell nothing.

I've personally seen several of those consumer-grade, lower-tier rifles like RRA break at carbine courses over the years, so yes, I've seen the problems. They are legendary.
Some trainers won't even allow some brands in their courses because when they fail they often divert class attention or utilize instructor resources that would otherwise be spent on the other paying customers. In addition, I train with cops regularly and have friends who are firearms trainers and armorers, and one of my closest shooting buddies owns an indoor range and pro shop. And my LGS is also a close friend. They see the issues, they're common, and tend to follow a theme (RRA has recurring issue with chambers being too tight and with being overgassed, for example). Over the last 10 years, I shoot at 2, maybe 3 carbine courses with nationally-known trainers a year. I was part of the local SWAT team for over 15 years and we shot twice a month, I've been shooting regularly with the Sheriff's Department for almost 20 years. I don't train as hard as I used to now that I'm no longer on the SWAT team, but still shoot regularly as part of Bomb Squad training. When you shoot 2000 rounds in a weekend with a bunch of other guys using a variety of rifle brands, well, if a given brand has weak spots they're going to be most likely to show up when the gun is pushed hard. Average AR15 owner might shoot 500 rounds a year. Most guns, even RRA, can hack that without recurring failures.

Interesting. Well for glock since 04 my duty weapon had thousands and thousands of rounds without one single issue. I shoot better with it too! I just love my sig.

So when consumer grade arms are pushed in LEO/MIL environments and training, they fail more than arms designed and built for LEO/MIL use? Huh. At some point, aren't we using the wrong tool for the job? My RRA has never had one issue, nor have any of the others I've built from their parts for others. They see 2500-5000 rounds a year. Of course, if I was going to shoot that in a weekend I'd expect parts failures and plan accordingly. My Sig has never had one issue. I've got a collection of Glocks that, other than the occasional errant bit of brass, have never had any issues that I couldn't directly trace back to my reloads.

And lets be honest. SWAT gets plenty of practice, but are we really using the rest of the police as an example of a group of people who know their weapons and shoot worth a damn? Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods, but here it's pretty dismal. One of the guys at our local Bullseye matches is the local PD armorer, and the stories we hear would turn your hair white.

Absolutley! Agency firearms choices are generally made by bean counters, not shooting cops. They pick their issued patrol weapons based on price, not on performance and usually don't allow individually-owned rifles even though most armorers would prefer it. Here, DPMS headquarters is located about 90 miles away, so finding those rifles issued as patrol weapons is common in all the various police agencies around here. It's a nightmare for most of them because of the lack of reliability and the effort that department armorers have to expend to keep them running even for the twice-a-year qualifications they have to go through. You're right, your average cops are usually not gun guys. They often can't shoot well and usually know little about guns. The frustrations that I see, however, aren't from the street cops who are issued the weapon, it's from the department armorers. You're also correct in that SWAT (TAC Team here) uses different weapons. Lots of AR15's but they're usually higher quality SBRs, mainly Colt and BCM, with a smattering of select fire ARs as well as some subguns (mainly UMPs, but we did just get in a Kriss Vector on trial. Holy crap that's an amazing firearm!). The difference between a Colt or a BCM and the usual run of issued patrol rifles from a bean-counter purchase is readily apparent and an ongoing source of both frustration and jokes. Those agency administrators...they don't have to shoot the things and the armorer staff...they're already on the payroll. Their daily frustrations don't matter since they're not really costing the department any extra.

:iagree:

Also, how many of the LEO firearm issues are cleanliness/lubrication related? Everything you just typed was pretty much verbatim from my shooting buddy as well. All he added was "and cops don't clean their guns for ****." He actually brought out the slide and barrel from a Glock where the owner, a long-time LEO, proceeded to load a 9mm into his .40, chamber a round which obviously didn't fire, rack the slide to the .40 that was loaded next in the mag and pulled the trigger to predictible results.

He firmly believes that most cops would be far better served if they were all just issued S&W .357 revolvers.

Also, please do a more in-depth review of the Kriss. That thing gives me wood.

I bought an SP2022 9mm a year ago, all I can say its very underated. French cops cant be wrong to use this as their side arm!

Also, have a P226 made in W Germany dated 1989. These are the only two Sigs that I have in my stash.

Do French cops actually use their sidearms, or just drop them and put their hands up? :stirthepot:

:rofl2:

The Kriss is a hoot for sure. EXTREMELY fast. Handles very well. Recoil is low and the thing is very manageable in sustained fire, although I do have a tendency to pull it to the right, at least so far. Maybe I'll improve if I shoot it more, but my ability to shoot the thing isn't going to be a departmental priority.

Re: maintenance...yeah, it's an issue. Mainly lack of lube and RDS maintaining a consistent zero. These things get carried around and racked a lot, generally banged up, but not necessarily shot all that much, and when they are then everyone cleans 'em up before going home. Theoretically.





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Would it be entertaining in any way if it was a neutered civvy version, or would it become pointless?

My P229 I bought in 96 or 97. The frame is made in Germany, the SS slide was made in the US. It's a great handgun. Accurate and reliable with a very good trigger. In all the years I've had it I've never had a broken part. I've replaced recoil springs once or twice. My issue with it is my current trend toward moving away from DA/SA firearms as well as moving away from .40 cal.

Oh yeah. I'd consider buying a semi auto version, although I'd want it to be an SBR, and I'm not particularly interested in adding .45 to my list of ammo purchases. IMHO, the thing is probably more useful in its two-shot mode. When I first shot it that way, I thought I had the selector wrong and it was still in semi. Then I noticed I was getting two casings hitting the floor for each trigger pull. Each two-shot burst was indistinguishable from one shot. It was amazing. In full auto, it empties a 30 shot magazine in no time at 1200 rounds/minute.

Sweet. Most of my reloading is .45 anyway, so it wouldn't be any big deal to make some hotter rounds to run a carbine/smg. It's on my firearms bucket list. I'm just going to need a bigger safe.