What would your primary uses be? Plinking? Defense? Both?

.22LR would be a good plinker but fairly useless in a defensive situation.

Given I have very little experience with firearms, yeah, would probably being mostly for plinking and target practice... I'm not at all into SHTF scenarios, but the idea of being at least a little bit prepared doesn't hurt

I'd start with just the pistol

Go ahead and look for a 9mm that you like. 9mm is cheap to shoot (about $10-11 per 50 rounds of practice ammo) and is an adequate defensive caliber with quality defensive ammo.

Unfortunately there are gobs of options out there, so you'll have to look around and see what you like the best. It's possible you might be able to sign up for some introductory pistol classes at your local range that will allow you to shoot their stuff. Most ranges will rent pistols too, so you can test some different models before you commit to buy.

Some common models (that I can remember) that I would put on your list to check out include:

Glock 17 (full size frame)
Glock 19 (compact frame -- still allows for a full grip)
Springfield XD (compact and full-size frames)
Walther P99C and P99
HK P2000
HK USP 9mm and USP 9mm Compact

I'm sure others will chime in with some recommendations, but that's where I'd start. :tup:

makes sense that the 9mm would be the right middle ground to settle on... based upon the little amount i've read on on gun forums it has stopping power in pistol format and okay accuracy in pistol carbine format

thanks for allowing the noob questions... those sound like familiar models, I'm guessing the local shooting range will have most of them for rent, and i'll give em a try

A 9mm Glock would be a perfect first pistol. Can't go wrong there, the ammo is cheap and plentiful.

While I think a first-time pistol shooter ought to start with a .22LR and shoot the crap out of it (cheaply) to learn stance/grip/trigger control, my second choice for a new firearms owner would be a 9mm. I say that with the caveat that, especially if you're choosing an autoloader, you should get instruction in how it works, how to field-strip it and clean it, and how to shoot it. A good place to start is a local concealed-carrry course. You don't actually have to get the permit, or carry it if you do, but these kinds of courses are a great introduction into that kind of pistol.

As to rifles, I am much more inclined to recommend a .22LR and in that category, I really like the Ruger 10-22. Savage is also good. Marlin used to make a good rifle, but there have been "problems" lately and I see a lot of customer-service horror stories from that mfgr.

Brands of 9mm pistols...I'm not a big fan of Glocks because I think they're ugly, but there is no denying that they are really excellent handguns...reliable and very cost-effective. They are now at Generation 4, and while that wouldn't be my first choice, it likely means that there are a lot of Gen III versions around and I don't think you could go wrong with a good used Glock 17 or Glock 19 as a first 9mm pistol. I'll bet your local gun shop has at least a few.

Yep, definitely not as purty as an H&K or a Kimber. I agree about the Ruger 10-22. That was my first rifle, but I was a bit spoiled; my first pistol was a USP .40SW. That is pretty much the reason I didn't sell it.

After thinking about it, the simplicity of the Glock is a big plus for the beginner shooter. There aren't any safety buttons or decocking levers and you will definitely learn from a good instructor to keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

ok, i may spend some time doing target practice on .22s... but longer term, i think i'm going to go for

Beretta Px4 9mm full size
px4

Cx4 storm carbine 9mm rifle
cx4

... that's what makes sense on paper, at least... could be i try a few pistols and prefer another

... now, just need to convince the missus this is a good idea!

I agree with the others that 9mm is a good round. However, if you see a good deal on a pistol in .40S&W or .45ACP, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a pistol in that caliber provided you have narrowed the field on what you want. I can speak from first hand experience (i own the same gun you are looking at) that the Storm in 9mm is a blast to shoot. I put a reflex sight (red dot) on mine and use it for target/plinking purposes. It obviously recoils more than a .22 but nothing that is going to make your shoulder sore. I will also add that all my friends that have shot it have enjoyed it as well and one is talking about getting one for himself.

^ cool, thanks for the input... hearing nothing but good things about the storm 9mm

That's why I'm moving this year. Looking for 25-40 acres near fayetteville,ar.

I'm a glock/ar fan.

I'm looking for a good AR/AK alternative. Trying to cross shop hk416, scar-L, and the Bushmaster ACR. All three are right around the same price which is $3k! Eeek. but i am looking to make a SHTF rifle.

I did hear there was a recall on the bushmaster where the semi auto were auto.

I like the 416 because its a reliable version of a weapon I am familiar with and tons of aftermarket support.

I like the Scar-L because it being lightweight and reliable while maintaining accuracy.

I like the ACR because it is everything I think I am looking for. I have followed this rifle since it was the magpul masada, but because it is such a new product...I have my doubts.

Any input?

Edit: As far as the ACR goes, I would have much rather bushmaster and remington didn't destroy magpul's amazing weapon...and maybe the reason I am drawn to the ACR is because I know what it was with magpul... Its the least likely option for me, and it really comes down to the 416 and scar-l.

Well i wouldn't completely say a .22lr is not a good defensive weapon. Its better than nothing.
Plus other than living here in cali which your only allowed 10rd, in a free state and able to get 25 plus rounds imagine putting 10 plus rounds quickly into someone. I would say that person will go down for sure unless he's wearing a bullet proof vest or something. Hell shot the legs up.
Also a .22lr can do some damage since it's very light and will bounce around inside the body. Hell it could be more damaging.

Short story (happened in the sacramento area). A kid was playing around with a pellet gun (the pellet was metal) hit his buddy on accident. The kid with the pellet gun was sitting down and his friend was standing by him. If i can remember it right, he was shot some where in the rib area apparently bounced off his rib bone and some how hit a major artery. I guess 10min or so the kid walked home and bleed to death. Internal bleeding. I believe they were like 10 or 12yrs old. I thought cali didn't allow metal pellets or BB's. Anyways it sucks that it happened.

Any how i have a spikes lower and cmmg complete upper .22lr AR style (my first). I shot about 100 rds and had one FTF. I have the BHOA with the second gen mag. Fun to shoot i just need to get it sighted in. I'm just worried that i don't keep getting FTF or FTE often. One of the main reason i bought a AR style .22 is because i had a 2 extra AR lowers and instead of just sitting in my safe forever i might as well put one of them to use. I was going to with Marling or 10/22.

Anyone else have FTF or FTE once in while with their AR style .22lr's? Pretty common?

I'm thinking of getting a marlin 795, or a bolt action version. I assume it would have less issues compared to a AR style .22lrs.
I am using winchester bulk ammo. I'll try federal bulk ammo next. I got them at wally world aka walmart. The ghetto store of america:happydance:

They are over pricey if you ask me. Plus if you need extra parts it would be hard to come by especially the HK or the scar. Well i assume parts aren't readily available.

HK416 piston AR is way over priced. I would get a LWRC or even a POF (which i own).

As for the ACR or scar i really like their ambidextrous features. Since i'm a lefty it would be really nice if other AR companies did the same. It would make it a little bit easier for me. Some do but not nearly as compared to scar or the acr.

The Scar Mk. 17 really does have quite an appeal. And I know they are pricey, but I feel like the old ar-15 is the past and I should be embracing the future. I am basically looking for "my baby". I have a big game "baby" I have a varmint "baby" I have a nightstand "baby" and a carry "baby". Honestly, I wish I could get some trigger time behind them all; but its more difficult to test drive auto loaders than cars. :/

I really like the SCAR and even though it is light I feel like I am shooting a super soaker that has been converted to fire .223.

My philosophy when it comes to a SHTF scenario is to have a rifle that is common and the ammo will be readily available (and you can carry a lot of it). The AR-15 definitlely fits that bill, and if you treat it right it is very reliable especially if you upgrade the bolt carrier to a FailZero. Plus with an AR-15 you can buy two and have one as a backup or ready parts collection for the same price as one of what you are considering.

If you don't mind not having a cool-looking, fancy assault rifle a couple Ruger Mini-14s would also be a great option.

I can't relate to SHTF...geography being what it is, I'm not a true believer. AR15 for home defense? Not around here. I keep all my firearms locked up, but I have three golden retrievers on a hair trigger.

Personally, I wouldn't own a Bushmaster of any kind. IMHO, the whole ACR project has turned into a huge fiasco. Scar-L and SCAR-H...underwhelming in my experience. The 416 is a nice weapon, although I don't think it brings anything to the table that makes it worth its premium price. Not a believer in gas piston rifles either.

The Mini-14 seems nice but I wouldn't give it the time of day due to the accuracy issues. I like being able to hit a target further than 100 meters. I don't like DI rifles because the obvious shortcomings are important to me.

And in a shtf scenario the higher maintenance required is a detriment in my mind. I really like the scar 17. I just wish it was cheaper.

And if the ACR was still the masada, I would be sold before I bought it.

What "obvious shortcomings" do you perceive in direct impingement rifles?

"higher maintenance"? It will give you something to do while you're hunkered in your bunker.



eta: Relative to the SCAR...I think one of the best discourses on the platform can be found here:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=62889




/

The detriments of DI, i feel are high maintenance to maintain reliability, and life of parts.

Thank you for the link, that is exactly what I was looking for. If only this guy did an ar10/scar17 comparison. If I went Scar, i would go 7.62 because i know for sure that this 17 isn't going anywhere since the navy had fn cancel the 16 and make 17s.

But overall thanks, this comparison is exactly why i came to this thread. looking for something that google doesn't seem to want to help me with.:tiphat:

The Z club of florida is having a little bet together at the range in Dade City this saturday if you want to come up and try outsome different guns. I had a px4 compact, it shot well but the safety was uncomfortable when racking the slide. I'll let you shoot my sig 226. It may make you spend more money than you anticipated though.

I'd like that, thanks! I'll be up in Tampa for another meeting sat morning, so okay if I come by early-mid afternoon? where can i get more details?

350Z Club of Florida Forums. Even if you can't make the meet, I live a couple of miles from the range. I have 5 acres and a small range on my property. Burgers and beer also.

An odd statement. Do you have any actual hands-on experience with the Stoner platform?

No my hands on is with spikes tactical and colt. and of course the army which is really a bad indicator i know because the army's weapons have seen abuse that would turn an enthusiast's stomach.

By "Stoner platform", I was referring to the M16/M4/AR15 and variants. Your concern about "high maintenance to maintain reliability, and life of parts" in that system of rifles/carbines runs counter to 40 years of continuous experience as one of the most effective combat firearm systems in the world.

I do agree that the platform has relative weak spots, noteably the bolt and BCG, but it's extremely hard for me to imagine the **** hitting the fan hard enough for you that those would even begin to be an issue. There might be other reasons to choose the SCAR or ACR over the AR15 as a rifle you desire to own, but functionality, reliability, and maintenance concerns are unwarranted in civilian use. If those were your benchmarks, you'd opt for an AK. Those rifles are reliable and just about anthing that breaks on them can be fixed with 3 lb hammer and a big screwdriver.

As at least one example, review Pat Rogers' article in SWAT Magazine regarding "Filthy 14". My own experience over many years and tens of thousands of rounds (in civilian use) and my association with several police department armorers just doesn't support concerns about high maintenance nor reliability. As to parts, IIRC Pat Rogers finally had an extractor break at about 27,000 rounds (with no cleaning to that point). Personally, although I've replaced the gas rings on one of my older rifles (a Stag - a consumer-grade brand and not the pinnacle of the platform), I've never had an extractor break on any AR15 I've owned. In fact, I can't think of any other malfunctions in all that time that weren't attributable to faulty ammo or magazines. Granted, other than that Stag, I don't own any "consumer grade" rifles, but if you stay away from the DPMS/Bushmaster/CMMG brands of the world, I'd venture to say that there's no way you could possibly shoot your rifle enough to have maintenance problems and parts breakage.

Bushmaster :tup:

I was under the impression the stoner was an older platform that came before the m16/m4.
Not all DI, but m16/m4, I don't like the charging handle placement. The AK I wish I would like it, but never have I. I don't know if its the ergonomics or what, but I can't seem to group well with an AK. I am by no means saying the m16/m4 is bad, I just want better. Yes the majority of my training an experience is with M4s, but I had rather mediocre experience. I have experienced malfunctions, and failure of parts ( gas rings and retaining pin). I like the idea that the new platforms have addressed a lot of issues. Maybe I'm just stubborn and want something newer and different.

You have been extremely helpful Mac, Thank you. I don't mean to come off like an anti AR15 troll, or anti DI troll.

Also I would like to try a bullpup... heard good things about the british service rifle in iraq...can't remember what its called off hand. googling.... L85/sa80.

I am still only a year out of the service and would not yet consider myself a firearms enthusiast...but I am working on it. :tup:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't referring to the original Stoner Weapon System (Stoner 63), rather the direct gas impingement system, rotary bolt etc etc designed by Eugene Stoner as has been used from the original AR-15, through the M16 and current M4 and all their variants.

The thing about firearms...we tend to like what we like. Can't judge a man for driving a Chevy instead of a Ford. My only point in getting so uppity is that I hate to see my particular Chevy criticized unfairly.

If you were in a combat unit and had experience with broken gas rings in the field, your unit armorer should have been shot. If they were range weapons...yeah, high round counts and low maintenance are the norm and they tend to be fired and not maintained until they break. But again, I can't imagine any scenario where a civilian or a police agency would put anything close to that volume downrange.

It would be interesting to see how a SCAR would fair over time in a training cadre.

The Arms room in my old unit is where we put the Sh1tb@gs. Nothing was ever done right. but even so it put a bad taste in my mouth. The gas rings failed in iraq. luckily it failed during qualification on a fob, but it was down range nonetheless. I was part of DART(downed aircraft recovery team) so you can imagine how that felt.

Yea, it would be interesting. Durability is more important to the military than me personally, because I don't plan on abusing my weapon. I already have a plinker, that takes up most of my rounds fired.

What benefits do you feel DI has that piston doesn't? besides price...because thats the biggest one I see. and it is a big one.

Besides, I am willing to bet you probably know more about your chevy and my ford than I do. :tiphat:

-The recoil impulse in DI is softer.
-DI suppresses better, and with a switchblock or properly sized gas-port for the application, runs cleaner.
-DI is lighter.
-DI has less parts to go wrong.
-DI is what the system was made for, and the forces on the BCG do not induce carrier tilt and wear to the buffer tube and other areas, nor necessitate the tightening of tolerances by adding rings to the BC and whatnot to prevent such.

All good points. I'd add that the emergence of mid-length gas systems on the DI guns has made a difference in heat and parts wear on the BCG, in addition to softening the recoil impulse even more. Additionally, it's a mature system with a wide variety of parts and accessories readily available. The SCAR may get there, but DoD dropping the Mark 16 hasn't helped the penetration into the civilian market. With Iraq winding down and given the cost of the system, it's not clear to me where the SCAR project is heading. I'd be leery about buying into a less-than-widespread weapon system.

Since I have been firing my pistol exclusively for the purpose of getting good a double action shooting I have neglected to fire the mid-length AR that I built :( I am looking forward to comparing it to my carbine ARs.

After reading about gas-piston AR systems I was all jazzed up to purchase one. But, after talking to a couple of gunsmiths that I have a lot of respect for I was dissuaded, hence I now have that sweet DI mid-length.

On the other hand I wouldn't mind owning a H&K MR556 (the civilian version of the 416 I believe), but for that money I will probably buy some Volks for my Z instead ;)

I have a shooting buddy that markets his own company's brand of gas piston AR's....the Huldra (Fleet Farm) is an upscale gas piston AR15 using Adams Arms gas system. It's a nice rifle, accurate and reliable, but about 30% more than a similar DI version and I just don't see the advantage.

Just posted this to my Facebook page. Thought I'd share it here as well.

http://www.the370z.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1326324568

I enjoy my BCM mid-length. Haven't been able to shoot it in a few months though since I've been so busy. :(

I checked out that site and wandered into the uppers section and noticed they have a full upper for $545. My first thought was "that's a pretty good deal". Then I checked out other gas-piston complete upper offerings from other manufacturers; a Bushmaster goes for around $1100 and a LWRC is almost $2000...Just for the upper! I have read the this about 5 times now thinking "what's the catch"?:

Huldra » Uppers » Huldra 5.56x45 Mid-Length Complete Upper

If that is indeed a full gas-piston upper, it is cheap enough just to give it a try at some point!

As far as the advantage of a gas-piston AR system, I recalled some study the military performed comparing the M4 to newer gas-piston rifles:

Newer carbines outperform M4 in dust test - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

I tend to agree with you...big whoop. There really isn't a chance that I will be getting rid of my Bushmasters even though some people want to convince me that they are going to blow up and take out anyone withing a 50ft. radius the next shot I take with them. To me it is all about maintenance and what gun you have in your hands. All my ARs have FailZero BCGs and even before that I don't recall a single stoppage.

On the other hand I love my H&K pistols, so that MR556 is something I might consider if I have an extra 6 grand to blow (I would have to buy two...one for shooting and the other one for parts). But since I have this thing called a Z guns have taken a passenger seat to guns for the near future.

Speaking of gas-piston ARs....I watch this goofy show "Sons of Guns" where the last episode they were designing a revolutionary AR that was as dependable as an AK for the DOE. Yes they milled out their own receivers, but it looks like they just ordered a gas-piston from another manufacturer. It's like they don't expect gun-nuts to know that the H&K 416 or ACR or SCAR have been out for awhile now.

With that being said, I am anxiously anticipating an email from Rainier Arms letting me know that my Noveske matched upper and lower are ready for me to buy!

BCM makes some nice shyte...After checking out their charging handles I bought one for each of my ARs on the spot! Nice backup sights too!

Loving that cat