Review: Motordyne E370

Motordyne · 03-01-2012, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Z JT

...If the Invidia was tuned for timing and AFR while the E370 was tuned only for AFR, wouldn't this be considered an unfair, slanted dyno comparison?
Wouldn't it be it in Tony's interest to ask why the tuner didn't modify the timing tables for the E370?
If Tony didn't want to direct the tuner on what to do, he should have told me and I would have gladly insisted on timing tuning. I am the one paying for the re-tune.

Hi Jason,

Unfortunately I didn't know there would be a tuning session until it was already underway. I assumed the laptop plugged into the OBD port was for monitoring engine parameters, but it wasn't until Seb mentioned adjusting fuel tables (half way in) that I found out. I asked if there would also be timing changes but the answer was "No." If I knew you intended a full tuning session that day it would have given me a chance to think about what a proper testing procedure would be for both sets and what to look for in the curves. The baseline could have been tuned flat and then the post could have been tuned the same threshold. If I knew tuning was part of the procedure, yes, I could have asked all kinds of questions and would have been looking closely at the state of each tune.

And yes, when the car was running on the dyno you mentioned you had a tune just two weeks prior and had the M370 swap, but I wasn't aware of the base tunes relation to the manifold change or that a only a fuel tune was part of the post test.

I was my mistake for not having asked more questions but none of this is what I would call slanted on anybody's part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Z JT

If Tony didn't want to direct the tuner on what to do, he should have told me and I would have gladly insisted on timing tuning. I am the one paying for the re-tune.

If I knew you intended a full tune it would have been possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Z JT

In addition to that, the same timing tables that were already in place for the Invidia, would have also be in place for the E370. Would timing tuning really make a measurable difference then?

It certainly can but testing is the only way to really know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Z JT

The Invidia baseline tune was not optimized for the boltons on the car and the dyno plot still matched dead on with the E370, albeit it being lumpy. We can agree if the Invidia baseline was re-tuned, the baseline curve would be just as smooth as the E370, and with additional HP.

Not necessarily, it depends on the reason why it was pinging. Not enough fuel and/or too much spark advance. Testing is the only way to really know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Z JT

The E370 did not have any performance benefits over the Invidia Gemini.

It may be but when the data shows pre and post dyno runs are at different thresholds, controlled testing is the only way to know.

Would you like to see if your Z can make additional power from where it is now by going with a more complete tune? I know it was a long drive for you but if you like, Church Automotive is a shop that is very local to you and they can do the tuning. Motordyne will pick up the tab. Church Auto is literally on the other side of the Vincent Thomas bridge from you. In Wilmington.

Thank you,

Tony

Unique_Z · 03-01-2012, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motordyne

Hi Jason,

Unfortunately I didn't know there would be a tuning session until it was already underway. I assumed the laptop plugged into the OBD port was for monitoring engine parameters, but it wasn't until Seb mentioned adjusting fuel tables (half way in) that I found out. I asked if there would also be timing changes but the answer was "No." If I knew you intended a full tuning session that day it would have given me a chance to think about what a proper testing procedure would be for both sets and what to look for in the curves. The baseline could have been tuned flat and then the post could have been tuned the same threshold. If I knew tuning was part of the procedure, yes, I could have asked all kinds of questions and would have been looking closely at the state of each tune.

And yes, when the car was running on the dyno you mentioned you had a tune just two weeks prior and had the M370 swap, but I wasn't aware of the base tunes relation to the manifold change or that a only a fuel tune was part of the post test.

I was my mistake for not having asked more questions but none of this is what I would call slanted on anybody's part.

If I knew you intended a full tune it would have been possible.

It certainly can but testing is the only way to really know.

Not necessarily, it depends on the reason why it was pinging. Not enough fuel and/or too much spark advance. Testing is the only way to really know.

It may be but when the data shows pre and post dyno runs are at different thresholds, controlled testing is the only way to know.

Would you like to see if your Z can make additional power from where it is now by going with a more complete tune? I know it was a long drive for you but if you like, Church Automotive is a shop that is very local to you and they can do the tuning. Motordyne will pick up the tab. Church Auto is literally on the other side of the Vincent Thomas bridge from you. In Wilmington.

Thank you,

Tony

Now that's the kind of service i wanted! I'll wait until this issue is solved and power gain is achieved, i'll be on the list Tony

Seb@SZ · 03-01-2012, 01:38 AM

Tony

Based on your opinion you are implying his Z wasn't tuned as far as it could have been. I don't think you have ever personally tuned or used the UpRev software. So to better inform you. Ignition timing changes on the VHR engines are different especially when it comes to NA tuning. Timing tweaks on the NAs do not make any noticeable differences. This is in part due to how aggressive the knock sensors are, our 91 octane, and the VVEL integration. I've done many tunes on VHR NA applications where even higher octane fuel nets little to no gains in timing. UpRev is still working on releasing more settings and maps to address timing with the VHR. The tuning at the end of the pulls had nothing to so with the outcome of the results. Both catbacks were run multiple times before tuning to show equal results. You can see the AFRs were nearly identical for both systems. Jason wanted to tune at the end to better his AFRs and extract any more power available from his current modifications. Which I told you we were going to do at the end. I datalogged on that first run of tuning.

Nothing more could have been to showcase the results nor any changes in the tuning. I do not appreciate the jab even if it was unintentional. You did not have all the information to make that assumption. I provide only the best service to ALL my customers. Anything less is not tolerated.

This is a comparison between the best runs on both catbacks with no changes in tuning. You can see the AFRs are nearly identical.

MaDMaXX · 03-20-2012, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seb@SZ

... Ignition timing changes on the VHR engines are different especially when it comes to NA tuning. Timing tweaks on the NAs do not make any noticeable differences...

...Jason wanted to tune at the end to better his AFRs and extract any more power available from his current modifications. Which I told you we were going to do at the end. I datalogged on that first run of tuning...

...Nothing more could have been to showcase the results nor any changes in the tuning...

Thank you Tripple's.

So i wasn't going crazy, i did read those posts

I've highlighted the areas that i think are pertinent here. To me, i personally think that what then happened at CAT, means timing tweaks *ARE* possible and *DID* make a noticeable difference.

Now i'm sorry to say this, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that, once the gains from CAT tuning the spark advance/timing were seen, it would not have been in SZ's interests to then show the loss again on their tune without the spark advance.

I also noticed that the optimal AF ratio was mentioned, but i can see that the comparison AF ration charts from CAT showed a large improvement in the AF.

Seb@SZ · 03-21-2012, 07:59 PM

I'll try to lay this all out so everyone can easily understand this or so I hope. I by NO meas want to make this a this versus that, etc...
I've played with timing tweaks or tried t on the new VHR engines for the last couple of years with no real benefit on an NA car. I was thrown under the bus somewhat in doing the testing for both the OP and Motordyne. I did a true comparison back to back originally when Tony @ Motordyne was at my shop. My job was simple, dyno on the OP's Invidia catback, install the Motordyne E370 catback, dyno the new catback and at the end unrelated to any of the exhaust tweak the tune for the changes the OP made in his mods.

Tony offered the OP a tune at Church as a consolation to the OP's unfavorable review of the exhaust. I personally have nothing to hide from as I have played extensively with the ignition maps and have done lots of talking with Jared @ Uprev about timing tweaks on the VHR. Jared and I spoke today via e-mail unrelated to this situation about knock maps on certain ROMs that have no High Det maps. Jared's response from today: "The newer ECUs do closed loop knock control somewhat differently. They don't use the "high det" map anymore, they just continue to pul timing as long as there is still knock so there's no switchover. The ECU will pull a LOT of timing. They will also advance the timing quite a bit on their own, which is why we're finding it so difficult to make good power gains on these newer Nissans."

How the dyno runs are performed can have an affect on power between runs. Letting the car cool down for longer periods of time, airflow, what gear the run is performed, etc... can all have an effect on the end result.

When I performed the testing on the exhaust systems and lastly the tune differences I did it in the exact same manner allowing for the same time to cool for each run, etc...

At the end of 3 pulls on the Church tune we reflashed to my tune. Here are the results of the runs and the differences in Air\Fuel using my equipment. Again, there are no smoke and mirrors on anything I did. I told the OP when I was reflashing after the 3 pulls we made and brought the laptop into the car at that point.

I will show all the pulls made and differences in AFR. I will also plot the runs in "speed" to show all pulls were made in the same gear as to not affect power. I like to run the mixture leaner at lower engine speeds to help bring up the low end torque. Blue runs were on the Church tune and the red runs are my tune. This was all done on the same day within an hour. The reason I feel that the first two Church tunes were lower across the powerband is because the timing was advanced to far and the ECU was pulling timing and by the 3rd run the ECU adapted to run its optimal timing. This is based upon what Uprev has said and my R&D the last several years.

Run 1

Run 2

Run 3

Run 3 of Church vs a 4th Pull on the SZ Tune to confirm.

I really hope to lay this all to rest and move on. For anyone looking to buy an exhaust the Motordyne is a nice quality piece. Tony put out a great looking system.

370Z JT · 03-23-2012, 01:15 AM

Here is an email received from Shawn Church in regards to the delta gain discrepancies from the two dynos.

Quote:

Hi Jason,

How would you like the files? The standard dynapack files are not readable without the dyno (older versions are, but they changed the format a couple years ago). I can either give you exports to .CSV files that you can use in excel,or I can send you screenshots of each set of run files?

BTW, sorry for the delay in responding. I just received a call from Tony asking me if I had read your thread. Didn't realize there was any sort of controversy going on.

Just so you know, with all due respect to the tuner at SZ, there are ways to increase timing on the VQ37VHRs. I have spent a ton of time working on my G37 to do just that. It's a bit of a bandaid to get there and I'd much rather have full control like the older VQ engines, but until then.....

As for the differences, or lack thereof, you might want to consider a couple of things. First of all, when we did the baseline runs on the SZ tune, the car did lean out substantially at higher rpms. This may be due to some AFR learning taking place over time as you drive the car. It would probably not have shown up during the original dyno tuning or right after a reflash as it takes for the learned fuel trims to adjust (they mainly change at part throttle). Seeing as how the AFR curve on your retest was flat, and I doubt that the guys at SV targeted anything _but_ a near flat AFR curve under load, that would suggest that any AFR learning had not taken place yet during your retest.

In fact, I would surmise that this is a big part of the difference. If you'll note, your baseline here at CAT showed the SZ tune was near identical to our tune between 2500 and 4500 rpm. The lines literally crossed back and forth many times. But once the car went lean at 5000 rpm, the SZ tune showed dips.

Finally, please note that a dynojet, especially at a smoothing factor of 5, hides small differences. Between the substantial mass of the dyno rollers and heavy smoothing factor, small differences can easily be lost. A Dynapack does not use any sort of smoothing factor at all, and does not have any inertia, allowing us much greater resolution for tuning. It is very hard to resolve differences of 1% or less on a dynojet, and your gains were just outside that range. As we stated when we tuned your car, the tune that was on there was pretty decent to begin with.

I of course have no comment about which exhaust might be better or worse. That I will leave to the exhaust makers.

SC

Is it typical for the AF to change like what Shawn is describing?

Seb@SZ · 03-23-2012, 09:22 AM

These ECUs learn quickly and by the 3rd or 4th pull we would have seen the AFR lean out if that was the case. As you can see on all the pulls the AFRs were nearly identical every time. Come back down if you like and we can again lay this to rest.

Seb@SZ · 03-01-2012, 12:01 PM

Tony and I have worked it out. He understands where I was coming from. Communication is key to everything.

thanks for caring, I appreciate the input.

Seb

03-01-2012, 01:38 AM	#3 (permalink)
Seb@SZ Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Chatsworth Posts: 277 Drives: Zs Rep Power: 26	Tony Based on your opinion you are implying his Z wasn't tuned as far as it could have been. I don't think you have ever personally tuned or used the UpRev software. So to better inform you. Ignition timing changes on the VHR engines are different especially when it comes to NA tuning. Timing tweaks on the NAs do not make any noticeable differences. This is in part due to how aggressive the knock sensors are, our 91 octane, and the VVEL integration. I've done many tunes on VHR NA applications where even higher octane fuel nets little to no gains in timing. UpRev is still working on releasing more settings and maps to address timing with the VHR. The tuning at the end of the pulls had nothing to so with the outcome of the results. Both catbacks were run multiple times before tuning to show equal results. You can see the AFRs were nearly identical for both systems. Jason wanted to tune at the end to better his AFRs and extract any more power available from his current modifications. Which I told you we were going to do at the end. I datalogged on that first run of tuning. Nothing more could have been to showcase the results nor any changes in the tuning. I do not appreciate the jab even if it was unintentional. You did not have all the information to make that assumption. I provide only the best service to ALL my customers. Anything less is not tolerated. This is a comparison between the best runs on both catbacks with no changes in tuning. You can see the AFRs are nearly identical. __________________ Z Car Specialists www.specialtyz.com Blog http://specialtyz.com/blog/ Last edited by Seb@SZ; 03-01-2012 at 01:50 AM.

03-21-2012, 07:59 PM	#5 (permalink)
Seb@SZ Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Chatsworth Posts: 277 Drives: Zs Rep Power: 26	I'll try to lay this all out so everyone can easily understand this or so I hope. I by NO meas want to make this a this versus that, etc... I've played with timing tweaks or tried t on the new VHR engines for the last couple of years with no real benefit on an NA car. I was thrown under the bus somewhat in doing the testing for both the OP and Motordyne. I did a true comparison back to back originally when Tony @ Motordyne was at my shop. My job was simple, dyno on the OP's Invidia catback, install the Motordyne E370 catback, dyno the new catback and at the end unrelated to any of the exhaust tweak the tune for the changes the OP made in his mods. Tony offered the OP a tune at Church as a consolation to the OP's unfavorable review of the exhaust. I personally have nothing to hide from as I have played extensively with the ignition maps and have done lots of talking with Jared @ Uprev about timing tweaks on the VHR. Jared and I spoke today via e-mail unrelated to this situation about knock maps on certain ROMs that have no High Det maps. Jared's response from today: "The newer ECUs do closed loop knock control somewhat differently. They don't use the "high det" map anymore, they just continue to pul timing as long as there is still knock so there's no switchover. The ECU will pull a LOT of timing. They will also advance the timing quite a bit on their own, which is why we're finding it so difficult to make good power gains on these newer Nissans." How the dyno runs are performed can have an affect on power between runs. Letting the car cool down for longer periods of time, airflow, what gear the run is performed, etc... can all have an effect on the end result. When I performed the testing on the exhaust systems and lastly the tune differences I did it in the exact same manner allowing for the same time to cool for each run, etc... At the end of 3 pulls on the Church tune we reflashed to my tune. Here are the results of the runs and the differences in Air\Fuel using my equipment. Again, there are no smoke and mirrors on anything I did. I told the OP when I was reflashing after the 3 pulls we made and brought the laptop into the car at that point. I will show all the pulls made and differences in AFR. I will also plot the runs in "speed" to show all pulls were made in the same gear as to not affect power. I like to run the mixture leaner at lower engine speeds to help bring up the low end torque. Blue runs were on the Church tune and the red runs are my tune. This was all done on the same day within an hour. The reason I feel that the first two Church tunes were lower across the powerband is because the timing was advanced to far and the ECU was pulling timing and by the 3rd run the ECU adapted to run its optimal timing. This is based upon what Uprev has said and my R&D the last several years. Run 1 Run 2 Run 3 Run 3 of Church vs a 4th Pull on the SZ Tune to confirm. I really hope to lay this all to rest and move on. For anyone looking to buy an exhaust the Motordyne is a nice quality piece. Tony put out a great looking system. __________________ Z Car Specialists www.specialtyz.com Blog http://specialtyz.com/blog/

03-23-2012, 09:22 AM	#7 (permalink)
Seb@SZ Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Chatsworth Posts: 277 Drives: Zs Rep Power: 26	These ECUs learn quickly and by the 3rd or 4th pull we would have seen the AFR lean out if that was the case. As you can see on all the pulls the AFRs were nearly identical every time. Come back down if you like and we can again lay this to rest. __________________ Z Car Specialists www.specialtyz.com Blog http://specialtyz.com/blog/

03-01-2012, 12:01 PM	#8 (permalink)
Seb@SZ Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Chatsworth Posts: 277 Drives: Zs Rep Power: 26	Tony and I have worked it out. He understands where I was coming from. Communication is key to everything. thanks for caring, I appreciate the input. Seb __________________ Z Car Specialists www.specialtyz.com Blog http://specialtyz.com/blog/ Last edited by Seb@SZ; 03-01-2012 at 12:07 PM.

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