So just ordered my Stillen SC

ANMVQ · 09-19-2014, 02:13 PM

I guess just to add in to the above "IF" you need to keep you manifold design why not have one with out the extra cooler in it. Everyone I know has moved on from you heat exchanger to the frozen boost one, Why not just use a larger one than the one we all moved to an remove the one in the manifold. ?

Pro4Jackster · 09-19-2014, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANMVQ

I guess just to add in to the above "IF" you need to keep you manifold design why not have one with out the extra cooler in it. Everyone I know has moved on from you heat exchanger to the frozen boost one, Why not just use a larger one than the one we all moved to an remove the one in the manifold. ?

They work together. Everyone still uses the intercooler that is in the manifold. But they swapped out the smaller heat exchanger that comes with Stillens kit for a larger one from FrozenBoost. It's kind of like swapping from a 19row oil cooler to a 34row.

Kyle@STILLEN · 09-19-2014, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

air to water inter-cooling is used for packaging in a roots setup, and for drag racing only where there is an ice chest and it is used to achieve sub ambient air charge temperatures, in every other way air to air is superior, including in fail safe ability if you get a hole in your air to air inter-cooler you have a boost leak, if you get a hole in your stillen water cooler you have a blown engine, if you have a water leak in your system your inter-cooler is effectively gone and the charge temps and detonation will go up. It would be nice to hear your reasoning for keep an air to water cooler, heat soak resistance? you know your kit heat soaks in half a session on a track right?

Air to water intercoolers aren't limited to roots superchargers or drag racing vehicles exclusively. They are definitely more prominent in those applications but to say that those are the only applications utilizing air to water intercooler systems is incorrect.

Vortech uses air to water intercoolers on the following applications:

2006-2010 Jeep SRT8
2005-2010 Chrysler/Dodge 5.7L Hemi Systems
2005-2010 Chrysler/Dodge 6.1L Hemi Systems
Various Mustang applications

NISSAN built the 370Z to be a great sports car, and they did just that. I love driving our 370Z every chance I get. However, they did not build a race car. As such these cars, along with almost every other production car in the world, experience issues when being pushed hard on a race track:

Engine oil temperature
Power steering fluid temperature
Brake overheating
Differential overheating/failure

In all of our marketing and all of our conversations regarding our kit we made it very clear that our goal was CARB legality and street performance. Our goal has never been to build a race car. Just like NISSAN wasn't building a race car, neither were we.

Heat is obviously an issue on the 370Z, this is something we can all agree on. The oil wants a large cooler, the power steering needs a large cooler, and in the case of an automatic transmission the transmission wants a large cooler. On a roots supercharger you're primarily concerned about the packaging of the blower to the intake manifold and the necessary cooler. However, when engineering a supercharger system one must look at the total vehicle package. If I put this here, what happens to that. So if I install oil coolers, power steering coolers, and transmission coolers (in the case of an automatic transmission) in front of my radiator what happens to my radiator performance? Then if I cover all of the coolers with an intercooler, what happens to my various other coolers? All of this needs to be taken into consideration.

Let's be realistic about air to air intercoolers as well. The efficiency of the intercooler is reliant on ambient air temperatures. The air to air intercooler must be mounted in a location where it will receive direct airflow. Additionally, the air to air intercooler has to be very large in order to allow for sufficient internal airflow to not impact intercooler efficiency. This will impact various other systems of the vehicle.

Should we decide to offer a kit intended for race cars we will do extensive testing on race courses. I'm pretty sure we know a driver that can put a car through its paces...

1slow370 · 09-19-2014, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

Air to water intercoolers aren't limited to roots superchargers or drag racing vehicles exclusively. They are definitely more prominent in those applications but to say that those are the only applications utilizing air to water intercooler systems is incorrect.

Vortech uses air to water intercoolers on the following applications:

2006-2010 Jeep SRT8
2005-2010 Chrysler/Dodge 5.7L Hemi Systems
2005-2010 Chrysler/Dodge 6.1L Hemi Systems
Various Mustang applications

NISSAN built the 370Z to be a great sports car, and they did just that. I love driving our 370Z every chance I get. However, they did not build a race car. As such these cars, along with almost every other production car in the world, experience issues when being pushed hard on a race track:

Engine oil temperature
Power steering fluid temperature
Brake overheating
Differential overheating/failure

In all of our marketing and all of our conversations regarding our kit we made it very clear that our goal was CARB legality and street performance. Our goal has never been to build a race car. Just like NISSAN wasn't building a race car, neither were we.

Heat is obviously an issue on the 370Z, this is something we can all agree on. The oil wants a large cooler, the power steering needs a large cooler, and in the case of an automatic transmission the transmission wants a large cooler. On a roots supercharger you're primarily concerned about the packaging of the blower to the intake manifold and the necessary cooler. However, when engineering a supercharger system one must look at the total vehicle package. If I put this here, what happens to that. So if I install oil coolers, power steering coolers, and transmission coolers (in the case of an automatic transmission) in front of my radiator what happens to my radiator performance? Then if I cover all of the coolers with an intercooler, what happens to my various other coolers? All of this needs to be taken into consideration.

Let's be realistic about air to air intercoolers as well. The efficiency of the intercooler is reliant on ambient air temperatures. The air to air intercooler must be mounted in a location where it will receive direct airflow. Additionally, the air to air intercooler has to be very large in order to allow for sufficient internal airflow to not impact intercooler efficiency. This will impact various other systems of the vehicle.

Should we decide to offer a kit intended for race cars we will do extensive testing on race courses. I'm pretty sure we know a driver that can put a car through its paces...

Hey you guys make your choice on it but at the end of the day it is the lowest power, least safe kit made (fortunately for you it is also the most readily available kit as well). Lets leave the oil and coolant to the side for now, it takes 10 minutes to exceed the capacity of your intercooler system as it is shipped, are you telling me you have a disclaimer somewhere that says "don't drive your car for more than 10 minutes or severe horsepower and reliability issues will occur, it's not a track car so don't think of driving it for a while and then accelerating it isn't built for that"?(I didn't know I bought a $32,000 versa)

An air to water intercooler is ultimately an air to water to air intercooler, it completely relies on ambient temps as well the hotter it gets the hotter the iat's are that doesn't change between an air to air and air to water. an air to air inter cooler is more efficient due to the difference in delta t in the systems, instead of dumping heat from a hot manifold into warm water then into cool air it goes straight from hot air to cool air the higher delta between the temps allows the air to air cooler to dump more heat from a smaller surface area. the thermal capacity, and conductivity increase of transmitting heat into water don't come into play unless the system is capable of bringing the water temps back down to at least near ambient, which without pumping the heat out via an ice box or refrigerant system is next to impossible. You call it a street car we call it a crappy inter-cooler setup.

Edit: Also have you ever actually flow tested your manifold? You say it is necessary for the performance of the kit but it actually makes less power than the factory manifold. I'm not trying to bust your balls here it's more like constructive criticism.

Also I know that air to water systems aren't limited to roots and drag setups, it's just that they are the only people who actually derive more pro's than con's of using it, or are required to use it.

Also wasn't it you guys who designed a different front bumper just to get better air flow to move the oil and other coolers out from the front of the car, wouldn't this free up room for an intercooler while still allowing virgin airflow to the oil cooler? and appropriately sized you really don't need the whole bumper opening for the intercooler.

ANMVQ · 09-19-2014, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro4Jackster

They work together. Everyone still uses the intercooler that is in the manifold. But they swapped out the smaller heat exchanger that comes with Stillens kit for a larger one from FrozenBoost. It's kind of like swapping from a 19row oil cooler to a 34row.

LOL I know that I was the first one to switch it

ANMVQ · 09-19-2014, 06:33 PM

Kyle let be serious for a second, You know and the guys on here know I am one of the biggest pushes for you and the kit, I really loved mine and took it almost further than anyone else" Cliff" beat me buy 13 WHP but he also has a manual and I had a auto AWD . I ekk'd out 457 WHP He made 470
The heat exchanger on you kit is not efficient at all. Why else would you put another in the manifold ? The outside one is SMALL looks like an oil cooler and you mount the darn thing to the radiator " Come one man" I Took my car to the track on not a hot or humid night was about 80 and almost no humidity I made 2 passes , 2! the the car was heat soaked, On my third run the car felt like it was pulling a piano it was so bad I was only trapping 107 and pulling 13.1's - Those are stock motor bolt on numbers. I never made it back to the track because the damn thing detonated and threw a rod( I'm not the only one either) It is a fact that the heat exchanger is not large and will cause heat soak and issues. Don't get me worng I still love you kit want one again some day but will be looking for a kit with out the heat exchanger and NO tune, Don't even get us started on the can tune that some of us cant start the car because it so RICH or the fact that the can tune make zero power, Just speaking from experience again. Mine on the can tune made 342 WHP( For ($9600) ! ? Made 300 full NA. Custom tune made 412 WHP BTW that's you advertised power level and not the 342WHP.

mikey1600 · 09-19-2014, 07:20 PM

another great option would be smaller pulleys to increase boost higher for people with built motors.

what's the best way to get more than 9psi out of the kit?

mikey1600 · 09-19-2014, 07:21 PM

would be good to see the JUN exhaust cams tested with this as well, I might be doing this with an e85 conversion later this year, trying to find a decent tech who is confident to do the cam swap. I've installed the stillen kit myself, not confident to crack open and swap cams though.

1slow370 · 09-19-2014, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANMVQ

Kyle let be serious for a second, You know and the guys on here know I am one of the biggest pushes for you and the kit, I really loved mine and took it almost further than anyone else" Cliff" beat me buy 13 WHP but he also has a manual and I had a auto AWD . I ekk'd out 457 WHP He made 470
The heat exchanger on you kit is not efficient at all. Why else would you put another in the manifold ? The outside one is SMALL looks like an oil cooler and you mount the darn thing to the radiator " Come one man" I Took my car to the track on not a hot or humid night was about 80 and almost no humidity I made 2 passes , 2! the the car was heat soaked, On my third run the car felt like it was pulling a piano it was so bad I was only trapping 107 and pulling 13.1's - Those are stock motor bolt on numbers. I never made it back to the track because the damn thing detonated and threw a rod( I'm not the only one either) It is a fact that the heat exchanger is not large and will cause heat soak and issues. Don't get me worng I still love you kit want one again some day but will be looking for a kit with out the heat exchanger and NO tune, Don't even get us started on the can tune that some of us cant start the car because it so RICH or the fact that the can tune make zero power, Just speaking from experience again. Mine on the can tune made 342 WHP( For ($9600) ! ? Made 300 full NA. Custom tune made 412 WHP BTW that's you advertised power level and not the 342WHP.

An air to water system always consists of two cores one inside the manifold and one at the front of the car they are two parts of the same system and both cores need to be in place. The core in the manifold pulls the heat out of the air and the core at the front of the car dumps the heat to ambient. but yeah the cores are too small and inefficient, and the manifold needs some help in the airflow department.

1slow370 · 09-19-2014, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikey1600

another great option would be smaller pulleys to increase boost higher for people with built motors.

what's the best way to get more than 9psi out of the kit?

A different head unit as in probably the v7 JT CCW unit vortech part number 2A159-010, V7 YSi CCW is a part number 2A159-050 and is rated for a little more

Z&I · 09-19-2014, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

...I'm pretty sure we know a driver that can put a car through its paces...

The Stig ?...;-)

Pro4Jackster · 09-19-2014, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANMVQ

LOL I know that I was the first one to switch it

Your post made it sound like people were removing the intercooler from the intake manifold. And that needs to be corrected.

Pro4Jackster · 09-19-2014, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikey1600

another great option would be smaller pulleys to increase boost higher for people with built motors.

what's the best way to get more than 9psi out of the kit?

The Si impeller swap from Vortech is under $400. It gives you an extra 100 cfm. In my case it was a 3-4 psi increase.

Z&I · 09-19-2014, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

A different head unit as in probably the v7 JT CCW unit vortech part number 2A159-010, V7 YSi CCW is a part number 2A159-050 and is rated for a little more

Vortech now makes the V2 Ti which is what I'll be using. (the V7 may be too much)

It is not listed on the Vortech site yet, but the specs are almost exactly like the
V-1 Ti.

V-1 Ti Supercharger | Vortech Superchargers

The main difference between the T-1 and T-2 is that the T-2 has helical gears instead of the straight and is quieter.
It has a little higher CFM and max RPM rating ... it also has a larger input dia. and is 75% efficient.

According to Bobby at CIN Motorsports it will bolt right in to the Stillen Blower Bracket perfectly, but since it is slightly larger it may need some fitting/clearance.

Should put out about 3 more psi than the Stillen V3 with the upgraded impeller...which produced almost 12psi on my car.
That theoretically would put it at 15psi without doing anything else (for built motors only)

Speaking of the Blower Bracket ... Any chance that the Stillen guys could redesign/strenghten and/or brace the bracket ?
Read somewhere that a 2 piece sandwhiched bracket was more rigid and didn't flex - reducing or eliminating belt slip - and that can't be a bad thing.

Motor's almost ready to ship from Import Parts Pro.

Should be wrenchin' on it again here shortly...

...

Z&I · 09-19-2014, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro4Jackster

The Si impeller swap from Vortech is under $400. It gives you an extra 100 cfm. In my case it was a 3-4 psi increase.

I had the Si impeller upgrade done by Vortech as well ... had 30,000 miles on the SC'r and it needed to be rebuilt once they evaluated it.

Cost skyrocketed past the $1,000 mark.

It did make 11.9 lbs of boost with the 9 lb. pulley

09-19-2014, 02:13 PM	#256 (permalink)
ANMVQ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Framingham MA Posts: 2,732 Drives: 2014 Q50 AWD Rep Power: 19	I guess just to add in to the above "IF" you need to keep you manifold design why not have one with out the extra cooler in it. Everyone I know has moved on from you heat exchanger to the frozen boost one, Why not just use a larger one than the one we all moved to an remove the one in the manifold. ? diego@vossen likes this. __________________ 14 Q50 AWD, ARK, ECUTEK (SEB), Takda,

09-19-2014, 06:33 PM	#261 (permalink)
ANMVQ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Framingham MA Posts: 2,732 Drives: 2014 Q50 AWD Rep Power: 19	Kyle let be serious for a second, You know and the guys on here know I am one of the biggest pushes for you and the kit, I really loved mine and took it almost further than anyone else" Cliff" beat me buy 13 WHP but he also has a manual and I had a auto AWD . I ekk'd out 457 WHP He made 470 The heat exchanger on you kit is not efficient at all. Why else would you put another in the manifold ? The outside one is SMALL looks like an oil cooler and you mount the darn thing to the radiator " Come one man" I Took my car to the track on not a hot or humid night was about 80 and almost no humidity I made 2 passes , 2! the the car was heat soaked, On my third run the car felt like it was pulling a piano it was so bad I was only trapping 107 and pulling 13.1's - Those are stock motor bolt on numbers. I never made it back to the track because the damn thing detonated and threw a rod( I'm not the only one either) It is a fact that the heat exchanger is not large and will cause heat soak and issues. Don't get me worng I still love you kit want one again some day but will be looking for a kit with out the heat exchanger and NO tune, Don't even get us started on the can tune that some of us cant start the car because it so RICH or the fact that the can tune make zero power, Just speaking from experience again. Mine on the can tune made 342 WHP( For ($9600) ! ? Made 300 full NA. Custom tune made 412 WHP BTW that's you advertised power level and not the 342WHP. __________________ 14 Q50 AWD, ARK, ECUTEK (SEB), Takda, Last edited by ANMVQ; 09-19-2014 at 06:36 PM.

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09-19-2014, 07:20 PM	#262 (permalink)
mikey1600 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 503 Drives: MY11 370z Black Rep Power: 15	another great option would be smaller pulleys to increase boost higher for people with built motors. what's the best way to get more than 9psi out of the kit?

09-19-2014, 07:21 PM	#263 (permalink)
mikey1600 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 503 Drives: MY11 370z Black Rep Power: 15	would be good to see the JUN exhaust cams tested with this as well, I might be doing this with an e85 conversion later this year, trying to find a decent tech who is confident to do the cam swap. I've installed the stillen kit myself, not confident to crack open and swap cams though.