GTM Stage 2 S/C on Meth 507whp/357wtq

Zat_Zuma · 12-19-2011, 06:18 PM

Thanks for the answer Axio

I was hoping to get some info from GTM though as I'm sure they logged the info I'm looking for.

Mike?

Mike@GTM · 12-20-2011, 05:32 PM

I see that some of you guys are really confused on the relationship between power, torque, octane, boost, compression ratio, intake air temperature, barometric pressure, volumetric efficiency, air/fuel ratio, detonation, cylinder pressure and ignition timing. As you can see there are a lot of variables to take into account. A number of you get it and some of you look at one or two variables and jump to conclusions with expectations that don’t factor everything in. Then there’s another small minority that over analyze everything.

Ultimately, I have one word for explaining everything here: BALANCE.

Balance between all the variables in the equation for horsepower.

Balance in the analysis of the variables. Don’t oversimplify, and don’t over-analyze.

Balance in the power you make at the wheels on a dyno and power you can actually put to the pavement. Power is nothing without control.

Remember back in elementary school math class when the teacher would say: “what you do to one side of the equation, you must do to the other side of the equation”? Well, the same principal applies to engine dynamics. That’s where the “balance” comes from. Take away octane and you must take away either boost or timing or both (all other things being equal) or suffer the consequences (detonation, blown motor). By the same token, if you add a bunch of octane, but cannot add the boost and/or timing, then you don’t have a balanced equation and you will be limited to the least common denominator. Remember; just because you increased the detonation threshold you are not going to magically make more horsepower. Especially if the ECU is reading high intake air temperatures and is pulling timing on its own…regardless of the fuel octane.

Yes, California gas is horrible. Let me explain how bad it is. A friend of mine tuned his car in New York and when he moved to California, he had to pull 7 degrees of timing to stop detonation! 7 degrees is very significant and depending on the engine and setup can be around 40whp.

There’s another thing I’d like to point out here. We are talking about a supercharger system that generates boost based on engine rpm and pulley size. If you go really big on the pulley, you simply aren’t going to make much boost, and you are going to build boost at a slower rate. If you go really small on the pulley, then you will make more boost and build boost faster. A supercharger system is, for all intents and purposes a “Set it and forget it” kind of system. You can’t just push a button and step up the boost for when you decide to go to the track and put race gas in the tank.

If you want a lot of adjustability and horsepower, then a twin turbo system with a boost controller is a much better way to go. It’s simply a more flexible system.

Here’s the bottom line. If you are going to be doing the Stage 2 Supercharger and running it on 91 octane gas, we recommend a 96mm pulley which will put you at 8 – 9psi and 450 – 470whp.

If you are going to be running 93 octane gas OR 91 with water/methanol injection, then we recommend a 92mm pulley which will put you at 10 – 11psi of boost and 500+whp.

kosstick · 12-20-2011, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

I see that some of you guys are really confused on the relationship between power, torque, octane, boost, compression ratio, intake air temperature, barometric pressure, volumetric efficiency, air/fuel ratio, detonation, cylinder pressure and ignition timing. As you can see there are a lot of variables to take into account. A number of you get it and some of you look at one or two variables and jump to conclusions with expectations that don’t factor everything in. Then there’s another small minority that over analyze everything.

Ultimately, I have one word for explaining everything here: BALANCE.

Balance between all the variables in the equation for horsepower.

Balance in the analysis of the variables. Don’t oversimplify, and don’t over-analyze.

Balance in the power you make at the wheels on a dyno and power you can actually put to the pavement. Power is nothing without control.

Remember back in elementary school math class when the teacher would say: “what you do to one side of the equation, you must do to the other side of the equation”? Well, the same principal applies to engine dynamics. That’s where the “balance” comes from. Take away octane and you must take away either boost or timing or both (all other things being equal) or suffer the consequences (detonation, blown motor). By the same token, if you add a bunch of octane, but cannot add the boost and/or timing, then you don’t have a balanced equation and you will be limited to the least common denominator. Remember; just because you increased the detonation threshold you are not going to magically make more horsepower. Especially if the ECU is reading high intake air temperatures and is pulling timing on its own…regardless of the fuel octane.

Yes, California gas is horrible. Let me explain how bad it is. A friend of mine tuned his car in New York and when he moved to California, he had to pull 7 degrees of timing to stop detonation! 7 degrees is very significant and depending on the engine and setup can be around 40whp.

There’s another thing I’d like to point out here. We are talking about a supercharger system that generates boost based on engine rpm and pulley size. If you go really big on the pulley, you simply aren’t going to make much boost, and you are going to build boost at a slower rate. If you go really small on the pulley, then you will make more boost and build boost faster. A supercharger system is, for all intents and purposes a “Set it and forget it” kind of system. You can’t just push a button and step up the boost for when you decide to go to the track and put race gas in the tank.

If you want a lot of adjustability and horsepower, then a twin turbo system with a boost controller is a much better way to go. It’s simply a more flexible system.

Here’s the bottom line. If you are going to be doing the Stage 2 Supercharger and running it on 91 octane gas, we recommend a 96mm pulley which will put you at 8 – 9psi and 450 – 470whp.

If you are going to be running 93 octane gas OR 91 with water/methanol injection, then we recommend a 92mm pulley which will put you at 10 – 11psi of boost and 500+whp.

Mike,

I am located in social and I have your GTM stage 2 SC and I have a 96mm pulley, could i use a 94 mm pulley (from what i understand you have one) ? Also can you pm me info on the meth kit.

Mike@GTM · 12-20-2011, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kosstick

Mike,

I am located in social and I have your GTM stage 2 SC and I have a 96mm pulley, could i use a 94 mm pulley (from what i understand you have one) ? Also can you pm me info on the meth kit.

Um...yes. You can run a 94mm pulley, pull the appropriate amount of timing to avoid detonation and make the same amount of horsepower you're making right now. You could run a 92mm pulley, pull more timing (again, to avoid detonation), and make the same amount of power. Try to make more power, and you'll get detonation.

At least, that was the point of my previous post.

In regards to the meth kit, I don't have any additional information at the moment to share with you...we're putting together the information for it along with information with other products we're releasing as well.

Nixlimited · 12-20-2011, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

In regards to the meth kit, I don't have any additional information at the moment to share with you...we're putting together the information for it along with information with other products we're releasing as well.

Like the secret cooling product you won't tell me about!

Mike@GTM · 12-20-2011, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nixlimited

Like the secret cooling product you won't tell me about!

Exactly...although I think I'll drop a hint.

Shell and tube.

Zat_Zuma · 12-22-2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

I see that some of you guys are really confused on the relationship between power, torque, octane, boost, compression ratio, intake air temperature, barometric pressure, volumetric efficiency, air/fuel ratio, detonation, cylinder pressure and ignition timing. As you can see there are a lot of variables to take into account. A number of you get it and some of you look at one or two variables and jump to conclusions with expectations that don’t factor everything in. Then there’s another small minority that over analyze everything.

I'm not sure what catagory your putting my questions into but I'm still waiting for answers to my questions

.

I see things with my GTM Stage 1 supercharger system that have me concerned. Between the cipher logs and the AFR, EGT, fuel pressure gauges I have questions that so far GTM wishes to dismiss and ignore on a regualr basis, in the forum. No PM's either.

Maybe there is something to my questions that GTM doesn't want the general public to have knowledge about?

Nixlimited · 12-23-2011, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zat_Zuma

I see things with my GTM Stage 1 supercharger system that have me concerned. Between the cipher logs and the AFR, EGT, fuel pressure gauges I have questions that so far GTM wishes to dismiss and ignore on a regualr basis, in the forum. No PM's either.

You are only adding to the any confusion in the community by vaguely alluding to a bunch of problems you are seeing. Perhaps if you made them public here then you could get answers, and at least educate the rest of us as to potential issues to watch for.

SAM@GTM · 12-23-2011, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zat_Zuma

I'm not sure what catagory your putting my questions into but I'm still waiting for answers to my questions

.

I see things with my GTM Stage 1 supercharger system that have me concerned. Between the cipher logs and the AFR, EGT, fuel pressure gauges I have questions that so far GTM wishes to dismiss and ignore on a regualr basis, in the forum. No PM's either.

Maybe there is something to my questions that GTM doesn't want the general public to have knowledge about?

I don't think you will find a more forthcoming company on this forum with information than GTM. So I don't get your statement. Every dyno graph we post here has always shown all the info needed for the end user to get a full picture of how are system performs: Hp and torque and most importantly Air/Fuel ratio. You almost never see AFR on a dyno graph unless it is from us. Every car we tune always has knock equipment on it. Why? Because we dont take any chances. Especially when we are shipping kits out all over the world. So I don't understand what you are driving at here.

But here is the the biggest validation that our system works and that we have the best kit on the market. The car we posted here has the same fuel system you have and ran multiple 30 minute sessions on a track with no problems. Same fuel pump, same tuning method, only with more power due to the bigger supercharger. So why would this system work with this car, but not yours? Where's the magic at? Where's the secret? What's the difference?

As many have said here, the only way to advance the the community is by discussing it here, this way every one can learn from it.

Please don't take this the wrong way, Lloyd, I value your business, and I like you a lot and as always, I'm just a phone call away.

Sam

roplusbee · 12-23-2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAM@GTM

I don't think you will find a more forthcoming company on this forum with information than GTM. So I don't get your statement. Every dyno graph we post here has always shown all the info needed for the end user to get a full picture of how are system performs: Hp and torque and most importantly Air/Fuel ratio. You almost never see AFR on a dyno graph unless it is from us. Every car we tune always has knock equipment on it. Why? Because we dont take any chances. Especially when we are shipping kits out all over the world. So I don't understand what you are driving at here.

But here is the the biggest validation that our system works and that we have the best kit on the market. The car we posted here has the same fuel system you have and ran multiple 30 minute sessions on a track with no problems. Same fuel pump, same tuning method, only with more power due to the bigger supercharger. So why would this system work with this car, but not yours? Where's the magic at? Where's the secret? What's the difference?

As many have said here, the only way to advance the the community is by discussing it here, this way every one can learn from it.

Please don't take this the wrong way, Lloyd, I value your business, and I like you a lot and as always, I'm just a phone call away.

Sam

This guy is for real. Sam is all about helping people out and putting out a serious product. Not many can back their products like him. I spoke to him plenty of times and I don't even have one of his products (yet).

So I'm just gonna put this out there.........I'm not oneof the fanbois hanging on GTM, but I acknowledge that Sam and his crew are true professionals!

Zat_Zuma · 12-23-2011, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAM@GTM

I don't think you will find a more forthcoming company on this forum with information than GTM. So I don't get your statement. Every dyno graph we post here has always shown all the info needed for the end user to get a full picture of how are system performs: Hp and torque and most importantly Air/Fuel ratio. You almost never see AFR on a dyno graph unless it is from us. Every car we tune always has knock equipment on it. Why? Because we dont take any chances. Especially when we are shipping kits out all over the world. So I don't understand what you are driving at here.

But here is the the biggest validation that our system works and that we have the best kit on the market. The car we posted here has the same fuel system you have and ran multiple 30 minute sessions on a track with no problems. Same fuel pump, same tuning method, only with more power due to the bigger supercharger. So why would this system work with this car, but not yours? Where's the magic at? Where's the secret? What's the difference?

As many have said here, the only way to advance the the community is by discussing it here, this way every one can learn from it.

Please don't take this the wrong way, Lloyd, I value your business, and I like you a lot and as always, I'm just a phone call away.

Sam

Trust me Sam, I value doing business with GTM as well. I like the engineering behind every GTM product and it was never my intent to bash GTM in any way. It is never my desire to publically share my issues.

Plus I plan to do more purchases this spring to correct my problems and make my supercharger system better and more balanced.

I just don't like being labeled and ignored when I ask questions on a GTM product released to the public.

Mike@GTM · 12-23-2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zat_Zuma

Doesn't the meth/water injection interfere or cause damage to the stock MAF sensors? If anything they will be cleaner

How much are the IAT's being reduced with meth injection before the MAF and before the intercooler? Which leads into the next question: how much are you able to increase timing from the lowered IAT's?

Have you measured the effect of meth injection on the EGT temps and by how much they can be lowered?

Another great idea from GTM and clean install. When will the kit be availble from GTM?

Firstly, I'm not the tuner and don't have the logs in front of me to answer all of your questions regarding IAT's and degrees of timing added. Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding: 40whp gained as a result.

Considering that MAF sensor cleaners generally consist of VOC's that don't leave residue and methanol is a VOC that doesn't leave residue, you will not be damaging the MAF sensor and you can bet that it'll be clean. That said, if you notice the size of the nozzle before the MAF sensor, the volume of water/methanol being injected before the MAF sensor is very small...just enough to lower IAT's that the MAF sensor is reading.

Because EGT sensors are very slow to respond to changes in actual exhaust gas temperature, they are not a very effective way to judge how the engine is running. That's old school tuning technology.

The modern method of checking engine operating parameters is through the use of a wideband oxygen sensor. That's what's important. If you are running lean, EGT is the least of your concerns. Another thing to recognize is that EGT is affected by ignition timing and AFR. As such, EGT does not give a clear picture of what is really going on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zat_Zuma

I'm not sure what catagory your putting my questions into but I'm still waiting for answers to my questions

.

I see things with my GTM Stage 1 supercharger system that have me concerned. Between the cipher logs and the AFR, EGT, fuel pressure gauges I have questions that so far GTM wishes to dismiss and ignore on a regualr basis, in the forum. No PM's either.

Maybe there is something to my questions that GTM doesn't want the general public to have knowledge about?

In regards to your second post, clearly you have something else going on if you are talking about AFR and fuel pressure. What does that have to do with your other question about EGT's, IAT's and water/methanol injection? If you have a mechanical problem that needs to be fixed, and/or you need information relating specifically to such a problem, this isn't exactly the thread to do that in. As you can see, the answer to your question does not contain information to diagnose and/or solve your concern. Furthermore, I do not have any PM's or e-mails from you regarding your concerns. For you to imply that we have something to hide by not answering your question as it relates to the topic of this thread is confusing.

Zat_Zuma · 12-23-2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

Firstly, I'm not the tuner and don't have the logs in front of me to answer all of your questions regarding IAT's and degrees of timing added. Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding: 40whp gained as a result.

Fair enough, and that's all that had to be said. It would be nice to have some hard numbers to compare with, on what the 40 whp gain is with the meth injection versus without.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

Considering that MAF sensor cleaners generally consist of VOC's that don't leave residue and methanol is a VOC that doesn't leave residue, you will not be damaging the MAF sensor and you can bet that it'll be clean. That said, if you notice the size of the nozzle before the MAF sensor, the volume of water/methanol being injected before the MAF sensor is very small...just enough to lower IAT's that the MAF sensor is reading.

Yes it will be clean but from what I've read on meth injection, that it's a bad idea in have meth injection in front of the MAF sensors due to possible damage and the increase of the volume of gases the MAF reads, that could effect fuel injection rates. I'm sure tuning could compensate for that. The jet is very small and I'm sure at the end of the day, it will help more than hamper. That's why I asked for before and after IAT's temps, so that perhaps I should be considering designing them into my meth injection plan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

Because EGT sensors are very slow to respond to changes in actual exhaust gas temperature, they are not a very effective way to judge how the engine is running. That's old school tuning technology.

The modern method of checking engine operating parameters is through the use of a wideband oxygen sensor. That's what's important. If you are running lean, EGT is the least of your concerns. Another thing to recognize is that EGT is affected by ignition timing and AFR. As such, EGT does not give a clear picture of what is really going on.

lol ...guess what, I am old school and EGT's will tell that something is not all right in the world and you need to look at other things. In my world a EGT of 1800F @ WOT is not acceptable and there is a problem(s) that need to be dealt with. The AFR on the dyno tune really showed where part of the problem is and what needs to be done. Yes we did call Sam, and unfortunately, they both missed it and I found the problem on the dyno. It's a small miracle and a testimate to Nissans computer programming that I didn't blow the motor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

In regards to your second post, clearly you have something else going on if you are talking about AFR and fuel pressure. What does that have to do with your other question about EGT's, IAT's and water/methanol injection? If you have a mechanical problem that needs to be fixed, and/or you need information relating specifically to such a problem, this isn't exactly the thread to do that in. As you can see, the answer to your question does not contain information to diagnose and/or solve your concern. Furthermore, I do not have any PM's or e-mails from you regarding your concerns. For you to imply that we have something to hide by not answering your question as it relates to the topic of this thread is confusing.

I have had a few conversations with Sam on my issues and the basic answers I've received is that it's my fault and no one else has reported to have the same problem. So I feel I'm left to solve it on my own ...and I do. So when I ask questions on information given by GTM, shared with the masses, it would be nice to get the info, to help me solve my problem, and so when I get ignored and labeled; I get a little pissy.

So my apologies if you think I'm trying to slander/ discredit GTM in any way. I'm just trying to get enough info to help me solve my issue with my supercharger kit; plan my shopping list for the spring to resolve my issues and have a reliable supercharger kit that works as intended, if not better.

Z eliminator · 12-21-2011, 10:01 AM

I have 94 octane gas at my gas stations. And my race gas is VP 103 (un leaded).
My SC came with the standard pulley.
I will dyno it with this pulley first.
With the meth it should run well.
It will take some 94 the meth with the 11 lb pulley it should make some good power.
That enough on speculation of what it will make. My redline is 8100 rpm .
I have 309 rwhp in the car now and its a beast. 450 rwhp it will scream thats a lot of power.
Sam has done a great job of making a 450 rwhp. SC that runs good at all rpms.
before you guys think that 450 rwhp is not enough you should drive the car first before cominting about the lack of power. (I include my self in that list)

Z

Zat_Zuma · 12-21-2011, 10:10 AM

Steve ..... we need to talk after the holidays

12-19-2011, 06:18 PM	#1 (permalink)
Zat_Zuma A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Edmonton, Alberta ...eh Posts: 1,171 Drives: 2017 Touring auto Rep Power: 20	Thanks for the answer Axio I was hoping to get some info from GTM though as I'm sure they logged the info I'm looking for. Mike? __________________ [B]2009 & 2017 370Z Touring Sport Autos SOLD

12-21-2011, 10:01 AM	#14 (permalink)
Z eliminator A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 1,660 Drives: 370 Z 7AT Sports Rep Power: 20	I have 94 octane gas at my gas stations. And my race gas is VP 103 (un leaded). My SC came with the standard pulley. I will dyno it with this pulley first. With the meth it should run well. It will take some 94 the meth with the 11 lb pulley it should make some good power. That enough on speculation of what it will make. My redline is 8100 rpm . I have 309 rwhp in the car now and its a beast. 450 rwhp it will scream thats a lot of power. Sam has done a great job of making a 450 rwhp. SC that runs good at all rpms. before you guys think that 450 rwhp is not enough you should drive the car first before cominting about the lack of power. (I include my self in that list) Z __________________ 12.343 @114.14 . 4.5 stroker motor is now being built. Dec 1 2015. Last edited by Z eliminator; 12-21-2011 at 10:09 AM.

12-21-2011, 10:10 AM	#15 (permalink)
Zat_Zuma A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Edmonton, Alberta ...eh Posts: 1,171 Drives: 2017 Touring auto Rep Power: 20	Steve ..... we need to talk after the holidays __________________ [B]2009 & 2017 370Z Touring Sport Autos SOLD

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12-20-2011, 05:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mike@GTM Not an active Vendor. DO NOT BUY Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: California Posts: 391 Drives: '13 Hot Lava FR-S Rep Power: 18	I see that some of you guys are really confused on the relationship between power, torque, octane, boost, compression ratio, intake air temperature, barometric pressure, volumetric efficiency, air/fuel ratio, detonation, cylinder pressure and ignition timing. As you can see there are a lot of variables to take into account. A number of you get it and some of you look at one or two variables and jump to conclusions with expectations that don’t factor everything in. Then there’s another small minority that over analyze everything. Ultimately, I have one word for explaining everything here: BALANCE. Balance between all the variables in the equation for horsepower. Balance in the analysis of the variables. Don’t oversimplify, and don’t over-analyze. Balance in the power you make at the wheels on a dyno and power you can actually put to the pavement. Power is nothing without control. Remember back in elementary school math class when the teacher would say: “what you do to one side of the equation, you must do to the other side of the equation”? Well, the same principal applies to engine dynamics. That’s where the “balance” comes from. Take away octane and you must take away either boost or timing or both (all other things being equal) or suffer the consequences (detonation, blown motor). By the same token, if you add a bunch of octane, but cannot add the boost and/or timing, then you don’t have a balanced equation and you will be limited to the least common denominator. Remember; just because you increased the detonation threshold you are not going to magically make more horsepower. Especially if the ECU is reading high intake air temperatures and is pulling timing on its own…regardless of the fuel octane. Yes, California gas is horrible. Let me explain how bad it is. A friend of mine tuned his car in New York and when he moved to California, he had to pull 7 degrees of timing to stop detonation! 7 degrees is very significant and depending on the engine and setup can be around 40whp. There’s another thing I’d like to point out here. We are talking about a supercharger system that generates boost based on engine rpm and pulley size. If you go really big on the pulley, you simply aren’t going to make much boost, and you are going to build boost at a slower rate. If you go really small on the pulley, then you will make more boost and build boost faster. A supercharger system is, for all intents and purposes a “Set it and forget it” kind of system. You can’t just push a button and step up the boost for when you decide to go to the track and put race gas in the tank. If you want a lot of adjustability and horsepower, then a twin turbo system with a boost controller is a much better way to go. It’s simply a more flexible system. Here’s the bottom line. If you are going to be doing the Stage 2 Supercharger and running it on 91 octane gas, we recommend a 96mm pulley which will put you at 8 – 9psi and 450 – 470whp. If you are going to be running 93 octane gas OR 91 with water/methanol injection, then we recommend a 92mm pulley which will put you at 10 – 11psi of boost and 500+whp.