Supercharged VQ37 Goes BOOOM

BLM · 03-22-2011, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

How do you figure this? Maybe it was so perfect the headers threw it off and went too lean? lol such stupid comments.

My headers made me run leaner when i had normal bolt-ons...I can only imagine what it did to that car running a supercharger...

My point was that there should have been some room for fluctuations. Adding a header should not lead to a blown motor. "So perfect"?? Seriously? If it's teetering on the edge of the leaner side of the optimal AFR, changing elevations would mess with it.

OOPS, just saw your sig. You're a stillen guy. My apologies. I saw one of those "so perfect" stillen tuned superchargers up against a GTM on a dyno. People who have installed both speak of the fitment with the stillen and how it makes you fit your car to the kit rather than the other way around.

Either way I feel terribly for the owner but why he would romp on it without a tune is beyond me.

Just goes to show he simply wanted to go fast and didnt have the knowledge. I'm not saying he had to build it himself, but to invest all that money and not understand that he shouldn't get on it until it was properly tuned doesn't add up. It's really his fault. If all he wanted was power then yea, lean it out with the current set-up. But he should have told the tuner to leave it a little on the richer side if he was planning on headers all along.

red6spd · 03-22-2011, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLM

My point was that there should have been some room for fluctuations. Adding a header should not lead to a blown motor. "So perfect"?? Seriously? If it's teetering on the edge of the leaner side of the optimal AFR, changing elevations would mess with it.

OOPS, just saw your sig. You're a stillen guy. My apologies. I saw one of those "so perfect" stillen tuned superchargers up against a GTM on a dyno. People who have installed both speak of the fitment with the stillen and how it makes you fit your car to the kit rather than the other way around.

Either way I feel terribly for the owner but why he would romp on it without a tune is beyond me.

Just goes to show he simply wanted to go fast and didnt have the knowledge. I'm not saying he had to build it himself, but to invest all that money and not understand that he shouldn't get on it until it was properly tuned doesn't add up. It's really his fault. If all he wanted was power then yea, lean it out with the current set-up. But he should have told the tuner to leave it a little on the richer side if he was planning on headers all along.

Was the tune right on the edge of being unsafe? Even when I had my UpRev Tune done the tuner eeked out as much power as he could without going to close to being unsafe.

BLM · 03-22-2011, 10:55 AM

Any forced induction car should always have one of these:

Red__Zed · 03-22-2011, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLM

My point was that there should have been some room for fluctuations. Adding a header should not lead to a blown motor. "So perfect"?? Seriously? If it's teetering on the edge of the leaner side of the optimal AFR, changing elevations would mess with it.

OOPS, just saw your sig. You're a stillen guy. My apologies. I saw one of those "so perfect" stillen tuned superchargers up against a GTM on a dyno. People who have installed both speak of the fitment with the stillen and how it makes you fit your car to the kit rather than the other way around.

Either way I feel terribly for the owner but why he would romp on it without a tune is beyond me.

Just goes to show he simply wanted to go fast and didnt have the knowledge. I'm not saying he had to build it himself, but to invest all that money and not understand that he shouldn't get on it until it was properly tuned doesn't add up. It's really his fault. If all he wanted was power then yea, lean it out with the current set-up. But he should have told the tuner to leave it a little on the richer side if he was planning on headers all along.

You shouldn't change anything on the car without modifying the tune. I'm not a Stillen backer in anyway, and have generally been unhappy with how they handled the supercharger deal, but this is owner error. Changing headers certainly changes the tune enough that you should not be driving on it, and definitely not making a pull.

On my S2000, the IP exhaust I had on it separated, causing an exhaust leak. The leak altered my AF readings enough that the car would have done the same thing if I had run it. That's just how FI applications are.

BLM · 03-22-2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

You shouldn't change anything on the car without modifying the tune. I'm not a Stillen backer in anyway, and have generally been unhappy with how they handled the supercharger deal, but this is owner error. Changing headers certainly changes the tune enough that you should not be driving on it, and definitely not making a pull.

On my S2000, the IP exhaust I had on it separated, causing an exhaust leak. The leak altered my AF readings enough that the car would have done the same thing if I had run it. That's just how FI applications are.

Believe me I know I had that AEM wideband on my WRX the second it was released. Worth its weight in gold. I feel bad for the guy though

RCZ · 03-22-2011, 05:25 PM

Yes and you completely missed my point. You were trying to make an argument that the tune is crap because it didnt have room for an unknown amount of leaning out. Not to mention their tunes are, in my opinion, too safe.

Oops, you're too busy trying to be a smartass to understand things. Thanks for the basic-as-bricks tuning lesson and advice.

A good tune should sit at somewhere between rich and lean...where it's supposed to be. An exhaust mod can swing that balance towards lean and blow it up in no time. Yes you do want to tune some margin of safety into your target afr, but loss of power isnt the only downside of running rich. Believe it or not, running rich can also lead to increased cyl pressures which can cause detonation and blow up the motor. Neither extreme is healthy.

Regardless, Its not whether I'm a stillen fan, I haven't really talked to anyone from stillen in months and judging by their lack of presence here, it seems almost as if they have packed their bags. It has nothing to do with that, just trying to add some sense of objective information to this thread that would otherwise be filled with misinformation...

Could it have been the boost? sure. Is it more likely that it was the headers he had just put on the car? sure.

Sorry I picked you to intervene and make a point, nothing personal bud.

Carry on with the torches and pitchforks folks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLM

My point was that there should have been some room for fluctuations. Adding a header should not lead to a blown motor. "So perfect"?? Seriously? If it's teetering on the edge of the leaner side of the optimal AFR, changing elevations would mess with it.

OOPS, just saw your sig. You're a stillen guy. My apologies. I saw one of those "so perfect" stillen tuned superchargers up against a GTM on a dyno. People who have installed both speak of the fitment with the stillen and how it makes you fit your car to the kit rather than the other way around.

Either way I feel terribly for the owner but why he would romp on it without a tune is beyond me.

Just goes to show he simply wanted to go fast and didnt have the knowledge. I'm not saying he had to build it himself, but to invest all that money and not understand that he shouldn't get on it until it was properly tuned doesn't add up. It's really his fault. If all he wanted was power then yea, lean it out with the current set-up. But he should have told the tuner to leave it a little on the richer side if he was planning on headers all along.

Staples · 03-22-2011, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLM

My point was that there should have been some room for fluctuations. Adding a header should not lead to a blown motor. "So perfect"?? Seriously? If it's teetering on the edge of the leaner side of the optimal AFR, changing elevations would mess with it.

OOPS, just saw your sig. You're a stillen guy. My apologies. I saw one of those "so perfect" stillen tuned superchargers up against a GTM on a dyno. People who have installed both speak of the fitment with the stillen and how it makes you fit your car to the kit rather than the other way around.

Either way I feel terribly for the owner but why he would romp on it without a tune is beyond me.

Just goes to show he simply wanted to go fast and didnt have the knowledge. I'm not saying he had to build it himself, but to invest all that money and not understand that he shouldn't get on it until it was properly tuned doesn't add up. It's really his fault. If all he wanted was power then yea, lean it out with the current set-up. But he should have told the tuner to leave it a little on the richer side if he was planning on headers all along.

This post couldn't be further from worthless. As a buyer, the consumer should not have to worry about doing his / her research on which kit is better, both companies should equally do the same amount of research and development - ESPECIALLY a company that's been in business for so long. Safety should always be the first concern, then comes power. Longevity, reliability, maintenance are what a lot of people look for in forced induction.

Stillen, a known company for years has been making great aftermarket products for different car manufactures. To me, their flaw is their supercharger kits. This is not new since they were having issues ever since they came out with a root style kit for the 350z a while back (heat-soak, custom hood, lack of top-end power).

"It's really his fault. If all he wanted was power then yea, lean it out with the current set-up. But he should have told the tuner to leave it a little on the richer side if he was planning on headers all along."

You obviously don't know what's going on. He used a canned tune from Stillen that was "suppose" to be safe enough for him to use as a daily driver. Even adding headers, straight pipes, test pipes, high flow cats or what have you... it shouldn't affect the tune to the point it's too dangerous to even drive the car. The tune should be conservative enough to make changes without sacrificing the motor from detonation.

This isn't the buyer's fault.

BLM · 03-23-2011, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staples

This post couldn't be further from worthless. As a buyer, the consumer should not have to worry about doing his / her research on which kit is better, both companies should equally do the same amount of research and development - ESPECIALLY a company that's been in business for so long. Safety should always be the first concern, then comes power. Longevity, reliability, maintenance are what a lot of people look for in forced induction.

Stillen, a known company for years has been making great aftermarket products for different car manufactures. To me, their flaw is their supercharger kits. This is not new since they were having issues ever since they came out with a root style kit for the 350z a while back (heat-soak, custom hood, lack of top-end power).

"It's really his fault. If all he wanted was power then yea, lean it out with the current set-up. But he should have told the tuner to leave it a little on the richer side if he was planning on headers all along."

You obviously don't know what's going on. He used a canned tune from Stillen that was "suppose" to be safe enough for him to use as a daily driver. Even adding headers, straight pipes, test pipes, high flow cats or what have you... it shouldn't affect the tune to the point it's too dangerous to even drive the car. The tune should be conservative enough to make changes without sacrificing the motor from detonation.

This isn't the buyer's fault.

Do you really believe the bolded part? Not to be fresh, but are you a Communist? Everything isn't made equally. That statement is beyond ignorant. Consumers shouldnt have to research their products?? Wow. Might I suggest a move to North Korea?

This motor didn't just blow up from him driving normally. He beat on it without tuning it. That's a Darwin Award nomination. These tunes are complicated. If anything, a stock tune from a manufacturer should be very conservative in terms of boost (not allowing the car to reach max), AFR (not pig rich but not too lean), and timing (no crazy advances), with the intention of having it optimally dyno-tuned by a professional. To think that you can just plug and play an F.I. setup is stupid.

Saying that the owner had no personal accountability in romping on his forced induction car with a new modification without a tune is idiotic. It's his car, he should know "hey, maybe I should make sure this is tuned before I beat on it". It's a childish outlook, honestly. You need to take responsibility when this stuff happens. His car didnt fly off the dyno. His car wasn't broken into overnight (as one of mine was). IF something was installed improperly and lead to this then it's not his fault. But still, maybe it's also not such a good idea to just throw money at a car without any knowledge of how it works.

If your bone is sticking out of your leg and you're in excruciating pain but the doctor says it's not broken, are you going to blindly believe him?

Even IF the tune was too aggressive, it's only the fault of the owner for beating on it before he got either A) a second opinion from the manufacturer or B) re-tuned. He could have driven the car normally and been fine.

Why the boost was spiking, that's another story...

Jordo! · 03-22-2011, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLM

If adding headers caused the AFR to run so lean that this happened it seems like the original tune was $hit anyway.

Most ECU's are in open loop at WOT, so there aren't any fuel trims to tweak the tune towards a target AFR.

That said, even if the Z ECU can maintain a target AFR at WOT, under load the change may have happend so fast that the ECU couldn't compensate in time (or pull timing fast enough if it detected knock) so boom.

Can anything out there get a readout from the OEM knock sensor? I know uprev can't.

I suppose folks could try a J&S safeguard.

Staples · 03-22-2011, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Most ECU's are in open loop at WOT, so there aren't any fuel trims to tweak the tune towards a target AFR.

That said, even if the Z ECU can maintain a target AFR at WOT, under load the change may have happend so fast that the ECU couldn't compensate in time (or pull timing fast enough if it detected knock) so boom.

Can anything out there get a readout from the OEM knock sensor? I know uprev can't.

I suppose folks could try a J&S safeguard.

Well it's definitely not going to be able to pull timing if it's before the charger because the MAF is thrown off from the get-go. You're throwing an obstacle in-front of another.

If you don't want to go with the HKS knock amp system then the AeroForce Interceptor should, as long as the ECU supports it (which it should).

Kyle@STILLEN · 03-22-2011, 07:27 PM

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to drop in here and post up real quick. Obviously seeing as how fresh this is, we're looking into it as well. As it has been mentioned, this kit is intended to run at 8 pounds of boost. Why it was running over 9 psi and then even further, why it went up to 10 psi after the installation of headers is very unusual and we don't have all the answers yet. Many of you will remember that when we developed the supercharger we mentioned that most of the time the addition of headers will lower boost pressure. We have found this to be the case. Now we're curious why boost actually increased after installing headers.

The kit was designed and tuned for 8 psi. We need to know why the car was running over 9 psi and then even bigger question why it went over 10 psi!

RCZ · 03-22-2011, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to drop in here and post up real quick. Obviously seeing as how fresh this is, we're looking into it as well. As it has been mentioned, this kit is intended to run at 8 pounds of boost. Why it was running over 9 psi and then even further, why it went up to 10 psi after the installation of headers is very unusual and we don't have all the answers yet. Many of you will remember that when we developed the supercharger we mentioned that most of the time the addition of headers will lower boost pressure. We have found this to be the case. Now we're curious why boost actually increased after installing headers.

The kit was designed and tuned for 8 psi. We need to know why the car was running over 9 psi and then even bigger question why it went over 10 psi!

Hey! Nice to see you guys are still around.

If it helps at all...when it went down into the 40's, I hit like 10.3psi with headers. Could easily just be someone who lives somewhere cold and has been hitting 10psi all winter...

Jordo! · 03-22-2011, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staples

Well it's definitely not going to be able to pull timing if it's before the charger because the MAF is thrown off from the get-go. You're throwing an obstacle in-front of another.

Huh? The knock sensor has nothing to do with the MAF sensors. Actually, neither do any of the O2 sensors

Both take readings after the MAFs and after the SC.

Whether or not the ECU can go into limp mode fast enough is a race between knock sensor sensitvity, the rate at which detonation is happening, and factory tuning.

Obviously in this case, the ECU didn't respond.

Boost is really just a measure of restriction -- what matters is the volume of air entering, which may be greater (even if boost is lower) thanks to the headers. If the fueling was off, and in-cylinder temps got too high (the reason you want to run a little rich is to have unburt fuel cool off the combustion chamber), the fuel may ignite out of time (causing preignition and detonation), which results in a good deal of shock to moving components, and boom -- something may break.

Looks like it shot a rod out the side of the block

Staples · 03-22-2011, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Huh? The knock sensor has nothing to do with the MAF sensors. Actually, neither do any of the O2 sensors

Both take readings after the MAFs and after the SC.

Whether or not the ECU can go into limp mode fast enough is a race between knock sensor sensitvity, the rate at which detonation is happening, and factory tuning.

I understand that they're not linked... you're right, but as I said before it still boils down to the tune and MAF position. You don't need the knock sensors to pull timing if there isn't any type of detonation present. What would have caused the detonation from the get-go? Fuel, tune, too high of cylinder temperatures because of the boost spike maybe.

b1adesofcha0s · 03-22-2011, 11:35 AM

I've been reading a lot of bad things about Stillen products recently. Are they all like that? I hope the Gen 3 intakes are excluded from this bad list since those are the only Stillen products I plan on getting.

03-22-2011, 10:55 AM	#3 (permalink)
BLM Enthusiast Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: NJ Posts: 342 Drives: 2011 Silver M6 sport Rep Power: 16	Any forced induction car should always have one of these: __________________ K&N // GTM // BERK

03-22-2011, 11:35 AM	#15 (permalink)
b1adesofcha0s A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: MD Posts: 40,963 Drives: HypeTrain Choo Choo! Rep Power: 143	I've been reading a lot of bad things about Stillen products recently. Are they all like that? I hope the Gen 3 intakes are excluded from this bad list since those are the only Stillen products I plan on getting. __________________ Project: b1adeZmobile (2009 370Z) \| Uprev Tune by AAM Competition \| Berk Exhaust Project: b1adeZmobile 2.0 (2014 C7 Z51) \| Corsa Xtreme Exhaust

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03-22-2011, 07:27 PM	#11 (permalink)
Kyle@STILLEN The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Newport Beach Posts: 626 Drives: Toyota Tundra Rep Power: 308	Hey Guys, Just wanted to drop in here and post up real quick. Obviously seeing as how fresh this is, we're looking into it as well. As it has been mentioned, this kit is intended to run at 8 pounds of boost. Why it was running over 9 psi and then even further, why it went up to 10 psi after the installation of headers is very unusual and we don't have all the answers yet. Many of you will remember that when we developed the supercharger we mentioned that most of the time the addition of headers will lower boost pressure. We have found this to be the case. Now we're curious why boost actually increased after installing headers. The kit was designed and tuned for 8 psi. We need to know why the car was running over 9 psi and then even bigger question why it went over 10 psi!