Good point, you never know though with the CARB requirements.

I have to agree with Chris. It makes more since to get a custom tune than to tear all the gear out and replace it. You obviously don't need to hold out for a Stillen tune for Carb cert considering your other mods. If the tune is the only problem, a new tune will be much cheaper and has already been shown to work. I'm not sure if anyone else is thinking of offering an engine warranty or not, so that could be a deciding issue.

Maybe if you guys live in CA you would know how we feel lol. The CARB is important to us. People gets state ref ticket for having just an intake. I wonder what the cop will say if he sees the blower haha. Probably will tow our cars without carb cert

You mean the CARB makes you live in fear of your own states vehicle laws (just rewording it for you), and it's the number one reason you will never find me living in california, if i ever even work there i'll drive from out of state every day if i had to.

Tom, have you ever had a tune that
has good driveability? I've seen your complaints about driveability and peak hp
with the newer tunes not delivering as well in the upper rev range. What I'm thinking is that if they have given you a tune that drives well, just stick with that, regardless of the peak hp number.

At 400 whp and 15% powertrain losses, you're making 470hp. That's stil 127 hp/liter. In the big scheme of things, this supercharger does work. At 127 hp/liter, that's like getting 635 hp put of a mustang or 787 hp out of a camaro. Basically, the only engines that are making the same power per displacement are cars with factory F/I and lowered compression ratios. Despite what their press release said, i don't expect them to squeeze this engine much tighter without something popping.

Since GTM was more optimistic in their press release, advertising 452.1 whp with their stage 1 kit at 8 psi boost, let's crunch their numbers: 462 whp with 15% drivetrain loss is 532 hp, or 143.75 hp/liter. That's a higher specific output than an F430 scuderia (118 hp/l), Lexus LFA (115 hp/l) or a ZR1 (102.9 hp/l). 530 hp is the same as the $190k GT2 with similar sized engine. Did they really expect to be in GT2 territory with an 11.0:1 engine and a supercharger?

My point is that your expectations are a little too high and if they can get you a tune that performs smoothly, you really are getting your money's worth.

Im not looking for a dyno queen. I would like to be in the same ballpark as the stillen supercharger and be drivable. Looking more for higher torque numbers oppose to higher hp. As for the tunes out of the seven tunes only one has been drivable. Thats the r6 tune. THats what im running now after r7 was just bad and undrivable. The r6 tune is great down low but once the boost comes on it just craps out. Im not sure how much more i should hold out after seven tunes and three months. Everyone that has the stillen tune is having problems with drivabilty and low hp and torque numbers. It seems stillen has given up trying to get a drivable tune so they have starting giving money back so the customer is able to get a custom thats close to stillens numbers and drivable. The only problem with the custom tune is 1) carb compliance 2) i bought the tuner kit for the warranty and for the carb sticker. They havent said they are going to extend the warranty for custom tune. Seems stillen has washed their hands trying to fix this problem and just has passed the buck for someone else to figure it out. I dont think im being unreasonable wanting my car be drivable along with getting close to the advertised numbers.

Its easier to remove the hfc if i get pulled over opposed to having to remove the supercharger because its not carb compliant with a custom tune. I would think the cop would look at the supercharger for a carb sticker instead of getting underneath the car looking for hfc

Stillen is not going to send you the CARB sticker when they get certified if somehow they find out you have a custom tune? How would they find out anyway, and why would they care (the liability is on you for changing the provided tune).

-Mark

Stillen responded to my request to return the supercharger. Chuck called my shop and told them that there is nothing wrong with the supercharger or the 7 tunes and i can return it minus a 10% restocking fee. And they wont refund any money towards a custom tune. What a bunch of clowns down at stillen. They dont stand behind their products and basically told me to **** off . PLEASE DO NOT BUY THIS SUPERCHARGER BECAUSE U WILL HAVE NO HELP FROM STILLEN WHEN ALL THE TUNES THEY SEND U FAIL.
F U stillen!

Its pretty typical of warranty to have a restocking fee. I mean I know he has his issues, but he is choosing to return it instead of wait for a fix. He is not even using warranty, he just wants his money back and alot of companies wouldnt even do that. Warranty is placed their so the product can be fixed, not so you can have your money back if it doesnt work properly right away. I KNOW I KNOW, you have waited and waited, but like all things it takes time and you got caught in the middle. Believe me I have been in a similar situation where I bought a turbonetics kit for my old z, and the charge pipe consistently came off on even lower psi then advertised. I ended up selling the kit, but I was offered the same thing you are being offered when I asked for a refund.

This problem will get resolved, and I am seriously hoping this will happen. Stillen is def having some issues, but I would highly doubt they are going to wash their hands and walk away from the customers. This is a big market, and lots of money and expensive cars. I am just wondering like everyone else said, if you have HFC's how in anyway could your car be CARB certified.

I am no pro, but I have no doubt a custom tune would solve this and you would be fine. I guess I will say goodluck and it stinks to see an S/C go bye bye. How is everyone else doing on the tune?

Just to clarify Tom- The information that you received from your source at Z car is inaccurate. It was not discussed during the conversation between Chuck and Z car but yes, we will refund you the difference between the two kits.

Additionally, I'm not sure if you're aware. However, we offered to fly up there, pick up your car, drive it down here for our engineers to tune it and drive back up to you at no cost to you but your tuner said no.

I must of just made up the restocking fee? You guys are just full of bs. Are u calling me a liar or z car garage? U hype your product and then when people have problems u disappear.

I never called anyone a liar. I said the information you received was inaccurate. And it was...Z car garage and Chuck never discussed refunding the difference between the tuner and tuned kits. If you would like to convert your kit to a tuner kit we will refund you the difference in the two kits.

Yes, we did say that there is going to be a 10% restocking fee if you choose to return the kit. We believe that the supercharger is working fine. The reason for the restocking fee is because during this process we have received no information that we could use to refine your car.

I'm not sure how it can be said that if there are problems we disappear. Again, we offered to fly up to you, pick up the car, drive it down to our shop, and return the car back to you with no expense to you or your shop and we were told that this was not an option.

If you have any questions please feel free to call me at 888-222-2702 ext. 173

When i bought this kit there was no mention of having to drive it down to your shop to tune it. In fact i bought this kit because of all the testing u did and how u didnt rush it out onto the market. We have sent u a dyno for every tune u sent me so u have had data about my car and the tune. The reason i didint send it down to u guys for one i dont want some clown driving my car 500 miles to la and 500 miles back when in fact u have had g37mobbin car there and sent him off with a crappy tune and u have had weiboy down there twice and he still is having problems with the tune. It seems u guys cant figure this out and perhaps we should just cut our losses but u have no losses u made money on me by screwing me with your 10% restocking fee and postage. Very profesional of u to come on here and call me out. I guess i cant give an opionon of your kit without u guys calling me at my house twice. I didint buy the kit from u i bought it from z car garage but the first time i say something about this kit u call me at my house. Its been nothing but a joke dealing with u guys. I bought the stillen kit because of the 20 years u guys have dedicated to the import scene. I hope everyone sees how unprofesional u guys are coming on the forum and lying saying nothing is wrong with your kit and calling me out.

Just trying to figure out your logic on hp numbers compared to Porsche or Corvette etc. There are smart cars that burn off on super-cars all day long regardless of hp/l or the cost of the vehicle. And why couldn't a supercharged 370z do just that????? Hp/l is thrown out of the logic as soon as you thrown in "After-Market Forced Induction". This is not a stock car we talking about and hp/l is only half the battle. You can buy a cheap car and throw forced induction in the equation and have a beast. Isn't this why forced induction is so awesome. And GTM does not have a car running 8psi outside of their scope so assumptions can only be made. At this point supercharger tuning is in its infancy stages and time will show more of its capabilities. And there are many other factors to a Porsche GT2 costing $190k than its hp/l factor.

Edit: I am really not trying to start a war here I am just trying to figure out how you are thinking, I might learn something here.

I agree with tomnavone on the fact that he should not be required to send this car over to Stillen. Stillen should not be selling advertised carb legal kits to their authorized dealers if they will need to have it sent down to them at a later date. Furthermore, tomnavone should not be stuck in the middle as Stillen continues to figure it out. If Stillen was still in the development stage their kit should not be on a the open market they should have waited to figure it out. This thread is now 131 pages long with over one thousand posts only to find out that Stillen will not step up and fully refund their kit. Is the 10% really worth the bad press? I'm sure all the other owners out there who are having issues with tunes are worried right now, they will have to either wait until the proper tune comes out for their application which as of now looks to be an indefinite time period or they will have to take a loss in their attempt to return the product. I knew from day one that Stillen has a habit of rushing out their products hence I don't have a single Stillen part on my Z. Good luck tomnavone, I'd read over that invoice real close and see what else they state in there.

Wow this is getting intense. I'm kind of sad about whats happening over at stillen. I love there products, and was considering there SC in the near future, but now IDK. It does seem like Stillen is trying to make things right, but I would not want someone drving my Z 500 miles, maybe they should flatbed it? Stillen please fix your problems and make things right for all the people are having problems or there is gonna be alot of $$$$$ going towards other vendors. Good luck to everyone.

you know I think I remember someone saying many moons ago that Stillen has a rep for this exact situation from past history. So I guess who ever that was can say "I TOLD YOU SO". Seems history does repeat itself. I think Stillen should send a guy down to the Z shop and tune Toms car there on the spot and pay for a rental till the tune is right. Thats how you should back up your product if you think its good.

And at this point why doesnt stillen just change their tune to the way local tuners are doing it?

Wow..............

<backstory>

I remember saying that it looked as if history was repeating itself. I have been leisurely following this thread only because I wanted to see how Stillen was going to pull this off. Moreover, I wanted to see how they were going to address any negative results or comments/ideas.

</backstory>

When I watch the videos on both the 350Z and 370Z Stillen SC applications, they make it sound like the awesomeness and the videos do depict that. However in the real world, a totally different picture is painted. I know there are folks out there that want something for nothing and understand that I need to be selective about what I hold as the truth, but the Stillen guys show up in the thread after a Post that sheds bad light on them. Where was the concern in the thread previously? I mean there was post after post in the beginning. I know that they have busy schedules, but come on, really? A good portion of issues that consumers have with companies/professionals is the lack of attention in a situation that yielded "less than desirable" results. I mean if your boss gave you a project and you were having issues making it work, wouldn't you give him/her some feedback?

I just have a bad taste in my mouth from all of this...............and honestly, this is a good part of the reason that I have not had any Stillen parts on any of my cars........ever.:ugh2:

Tom, I don't blame you. I think the restocking fee is absurd.

First, I would not want anybody to make special arrangements to drive my car hundreds of miles back to their shop. We all know those extra miles incur deppreciation on a vehicle, which is just added cost to you. Why can't they do what GTM does and flatbed the vehicle back? In my eyes's, Tom's reluctance to have his car driven to their shop to refine the driveability is justified. After 7 tunes, I would have little to no confidence in their ability to make it right.

Stillen's refusal to honor a full refund, and instead give him a partial refund if he goes to a tuner kit is a joke. That completely disregard's the fact he needs the CARB kit. It certainly doesn't seem Stillen is listening to their customer's needs.

Charging a restocking fee because the customer is returning a working supercharger is ridiculous. Sure, the head unit works, but Stillen's kit is severely limited by the tune. Let's not forget customer's buy the CARB kit as a total package complete with a tuning and fuel solution. Stillen should honor a full refund on their kit if any components fail to deliver the desired results. After all, we are talking about a complete kit here working together to achieve an advertised power level.

I agree 100%. Stillen needs to refund him 100% otherwise they just drag their name and reputation through the mud even more. :shakes head:

He wants CARB cert (even though he'll never pass with his other mods). A GTM tune won't help here any more than any other 3rd party tune.

Seriously? Did the Z shop in question send dynos or any diagnostic reports at all? If not then I understand to some degree. I guess it would come down to your word vs theirs in regards to performance. However if they have been sending any reports on the condition of the vehicle, then you all should know how his car is responding to your tune..

In all honesty, ive never believed in canned tunes. Seriously guys, to some extent our cars are all different. And each car DESERVES dyno time for a proper tune. IF you want the stillen kit DONOT get a damn canned tune yet if you can not afford R&D time. On that note, if your going FI plan on custom tuning. Not be cause stillens canned tune doesn't work. But because you should not be doing it ANY other way. If you want to be "carb legal" either leave your car stock, or wait till the front runners have been patient enough to work it out (not a cheap stab at you tom, i realize you have been through enough).

With that being said, i think at some point Stillen needs to throw the towel in on the canned tune idea if its just not working at their advertised numbers. Either lower the numbers or the price.

On a final note, for all you front runners. There is always the chance things will not go as planned. We were all crazy excited for this kit, and were all constantly asking when will it be released! Things didn't work out the way we hoped. Its time to move on, either pay the 10%, or go get your car tuned the way it deserves to be. There is no need to bash Stillen anymore. Either give them your business or don't. I realize this is easy to say from the sidelines, but I want to FI just as much as the next guy, and hope this gets resolved.

Tom, you do realize that on top of paying the 10% restocking fee, you also will most likely be paying labor to UN-install the kit, and get your car back to stock condition. That's $$ right there. I would say screw CARB, have it tuned by a 3rd party, and enjoy your car. There are hundreds of TT and SC kits in CA that are somehow getting by w/o the CARB cert. Just something to think about.

I agree with the restocking fee as its totally normal to see a company do that as they are taking back a product. He is no longer asking for warranty, he wants to return it and being a business owner myself, things happen.

I do however agree with the crowd here, that not refunding him for the S/C at all is wrong. THe customer has had enough issues, and being as big as Stillen is I would think they would be offering to pay to take the S/C off the car too, since the customer is going to lose out big on that one too. Stillen make this right, this is a BIG problem and you are messing with alot of money out of peoples pockets which usually turns into law suits.

They were sent seven different dynos. One for every tune they sent.


When i have to smog in 4 years its very easy for me to revert back to stock cats for smog.

Im going to lose about 2 grand on the deal with the cost of install, restocking fee, and postage. Im guessing no one is interested in purchasing this supercharger from me? Its in great working condition according to stillen :bowrofl: It comes with 7 different tunes at no cost

I think this is what Chris from wheels direct has been saying consistently. A simple custom tune would probably get the job done, but Stillen doesnt seem to be manning up on that, and the customer doesnt want to bend using carb certification as the excuse. The simple fact is he has hfc's so I dont understand how you would be carb certified with that? Tom I know your having the issues, but how can you say you want carb certification when you have the hfc's, just go get a tune man and be done with it.

I can't believe they are charging a restocking fee... that is completely rediculous and unprofessional on their part. To say that there is there is nothing wrong with the kit or tunes is crazy; if there was nothing wrong with them then there wouldn't be a Tune Version 7!

I would not only want a full refund, but also extra for all of the headaches and time I spent at the shop and on the phone trying to get it straightened out. I imagine most people who buy a $6K kit have successful careers....maybe I'm getting carried away but after a point, I would expect a 110% refund and for them to pay the shop install/removal and dyno costs which I would guestimate to be $1-2K.

The whole point of this kit was that it was intended to be turn-key...enough time has passed to show that this is not the case. I'd be pissed. I'm just glad I was not one of their guinea pigs

The carb cert is only for the supercharger, we don't have to go get it certified. Yes, his other mods won't pass smog but all we want is the main thing to be carb legal. Removing the cats or exhaust is easy unlike the SC.

We would love to get a full custom tune but we just don't have that option if we want to stay legal:icon14:

Wanting CARB certification on a supercharger sold as CARB-legal is totally reasonable. If he didn't care about CARB cert, it would be much cheaper to have gone another route...

I totally understand, I was just pointing out that getting a tune elsewhere won't meet his criteria. Others are suggesting this as a solution but he has indicated he wants the CARB cert. He can't get that anywhere else and getting the CARB cert is really the root of the problem for Stillen as well.

This man makes sense...good points. A tune that has to be approved by one of the most stringent guidelines for smog testing is going to maim the car from the start.

Stillen did screw the pooch at first by releasing numbers based on a pulley that was producing more PSI. I honestly think this was not done on purpose since a few customers (including myself) were actually sent the "overboost" pulley at first. So I think they realized it either wasn't safe or it wasn't going to pass carb. Either way, it's not going to produce the same numbers.

Interesting thing is that I rarely and I mean rarely go past 8psi. Maybe because I don't bang the limiter or because there's a slight pressure drop from my headers. I would not be surprised if Stillen tested the pulley and saw 8psi all day like I do, but then when the kit started going out, they started getting more and more people breaching 8psi on the dyno so they pulled it back.

In my opinion, no one's going to hit advertised numbers because of this...less boost + carb constraints. However, if you ask me, I think you can get 430whp out of the lower boost pulley if you get custom tuned. 450whp with the higher boost pulley that you might as well get if you ARE getting custom tuned.

tomnavone, no offense, but anyone who thinks dynos are in any sort of way useful to solving a problem like this, has absolutely no idea about whats going on.

We all know any tuner with experience can tune this kit. What I'd love to see is Sam make a safe, CARB approvable tune with this kit that runs completely smooth. Now that would be something.


I think most people are hanging on to that warranty more than the CARB cert. 3rd party tune = no warranty and no carb.

Does the tune actually have to be "locked down" and unalterable to get CARB? I thought someone mentioned that that was why Stillen was going this particular uprev route and why standard tuning wouldn't work for the application. Anyone know for sure?

its locked u arent able to alter the tune or see the parameters of the tune. All they have asked of my shop after every tune fails is to send them the dyno. My shop has called stillen dozens of times to talk about my kit. Im not hiding anything and we are giving stillen everything that they have requested. Believe me i would rather be driving my car than talk about the stillen supercharger shortcomings. Luckily my shop rocks they havnt charged me to install the 7 different tunes or the 7 different dynos. Stillen claims they have the right tune after the previous one failed i have to drive a hour to my shop, have my shop install the tune and dyno which takes another hour, then i have to drive another hour home. Three hours of my time for each tune x seven tunes.

Do you think it has anything to do with hardware or is it strickly a tune issue?

Its the tune.

I know you're pissed, but if it were me, I'd go back to the "driveable" tune and just sit on it until Stillen can come up with a fix or stops trying. It doesn't cost you anything, and if the hardware is good, I bet the tune problems will get fixed eventually. Even if they don't, you get an custom tune and you will end up about where you want to be since no one else is going CARB as far as I know. A lot also depends on how long you have to return it. I'd check with Stillen on that. Otherwise you are gonna be out a good bit more money and more time to start over.

I have reverted back to the r6 tune from the newest r7 tune. The r6 tune is somewhat drivable but once u give it gas it has major lag and once the boost comes on the torque and hp just falls off the table. I think GTM is or was going to apply for carb for their supercharger.

I haven't had an opportunity to drive mine with the r7 tune so I can't really comment on how it runs yet. Although, regardless of how it may run I am going with a custom tune in the next couple of weeks. I spoke with a very reputable tuner in the Montreal area regarding the ongoing issues and he will just overide the Stillen tune with his own.

Thanks what Im talking about, this is the smart thing to do. Thumbs up to you, for doing this the right way.:tup: I tried to do the box tune on my old turbo setup and it was never right. Custom tune, and magic the car ran real smooth. The charge pipe kept coming off haha, but that is neither here or there.

Custom tune and carbed legal sounds fantastic hahaha!