Thanks Jack,
I used the FBN1000 hose referenced at the beginning of this post with the socketless fittings and plenty of slack, no add on connectors, and the hose popped off and caused me to wreck.

I will stick to purpose built hoses from a professional manufacturer from now on.

Mike,

I know it has been several months but do you still have the fittings and the hose that popped off? I know Aeroquip would like to inspect them if possible.

Thanks

its actually only been a week and a half, but I told the hydraulic shop to throw them out, sorry.

It would be nice to know exactly what happened with your hose or fitting. These socketless fittings are approved for private aircraft, the NHRA has approved them and they have a reliable track record.

yea, I agree, but I had the new hoses made the day after my accident and don't think I was really thinking that straight or far ahead.

I will have this complete Modshack cooler setup for sale, with the newly custom made hoses real soon, as I am getting the new Stillen one for their front bumper if anyone is interested. I'm thinking 300 shipped. The new hoses were 110 by themselves.

What size is the cooler? I might be interested...

TRU-L7B TRU-Cool 24 Row Racing Oil Cooler $44.95 (11" x 5.75" x 1.5")

It worked great here all of last late summer and fall at some hot track days.

Is it possible that the hoses while filled with oil got so heavy that after many miles of up-and-down movement, they separated? I am asking as in looking at the pics, they run horizontal but there is no mention of any bracing/brackets to hold the weight?

Hose Blow-off analysis

What we know:

1) Both Socketless and Braided hoses have separated in 3 reported instances.
Not sure if Travis's was hose related, so that could be 4

2) Neither of those hose types and attachment styles have regularly reported failure rates.

3) Both hose/end styles are rated well above the expected temps and pressures

What we don't know:

1) install specifics/variables.

One of the comments from the Jack above stuck in my mind: The hose needs significant slack.. Both Cab and Mike report they had slack in their installs. I have no reason to doubt that. One thing not taken into consideration is the Torquing of the motor on it's mounts. Under acceleration and compression braking, the motor could be moving around the axis of the mounts by as much as an inch. Certainly in Mike's case, under track conditions, this could be even more. As the motor rocks on it's mounts, alternate stretch and compression forces are applied to the fitting. I suspect enough of these cycles, with a tad too little slack, and the barbs wore through the inner hose liner. At that point the structural integrity of the hose was gone and it blew off. But I had enough slack you say...Alternate theory #2: The hose, as laid out, passes under the sway bar. Lottsa clearance when up on a lift, not so much when on the ground. Compound that with a lowered car (CAB, not sure of your suspension) and you may have the sway bar working and flexing on the hose close to the fitting. This may potentially cause a similar failure by compromising the inner liner. Be sure the hoses are routed to cross under the swaybar close to the pivot point to minimize this. I'll put some cautions up on page one. I'd also recommend, on new builds, extending the hose lengths by 1" as Mike did after his incident. (My dimensions quoted BTW are cut end to cut end and DO NOT include the fitting.). It is always best to actually make up the hose lengths by fitting to the particular install before final socketless (or other) end assembly. A little too short and you run the risk of hose failure because of the above.

Modshack,

Excellent summary. I agree with you, engine torquing under track day or extreme driving events could be as much as 4-5 inches. Couple this with hose contraction of up to 10% reinforces how critical the routing and length of a plumbing be calculated.


Jack
RPW

Thanks for your participation Jack. I've done 3 cooler installs over the years using parts from your Company, and never had an issue with any of them. I suspect the conclusion above is probably the culprit here..

Steve

Oil cooler installs
 

I think we are getting a little crazy on the oil cooler hose bit. As I said in a previous post I spent 23 years in Jet Enginge Test Research and Development. We used aeroquip hoses that were CRIPMED as we had our own shop with the tools to do so. We made sure that hoses were not too long and or too short. We used high temp anti chaffing clamps to route the hoses. Any where that we thought chaffing was a possibliity we added that protection.
My position on this is do right the first time, don't try to reengineer a simple process. You can order the stainless steel crimped hoses with the cooler or have hoses made at say, Napa or at any hydraulic shop that makes hoses in your area to the proper length. The torqueing of the engine and its result on the hoses to me is a mute point if they are clamped and routed properly. Spend a couple of more bucks and time and you will not have to worry if you are going to dump your oil or not.

The pilot of a Jet fighter dose not have time to worry about things like that. Yes the jet engine does at times have premature failures and their RPMS are 50-60K not 8K.

modshack, good analysis, as always... +rep

I think that was my point. The fact that both socketless rubber AND socketed stainless lines have come off would point to installation issues rather than random hardware failure.

I've got a question for you experienced modders out there. How much should I torque down the AN fittings for those lines that are supplied from the GTM kit? I am currently getting a little seepage from the edge of where the fittings meet the steel braided line. Is this something to be concerned about? When I get her back up on stands, I will take some pics and post (though that probably will not happen until at the earliest the evening of Tuesday - 9 March).

I think I went about a 1/2 turn after snug or something. Don't remember exactly... Don't have any seepage though lol.

AN fittings do not take a lot of torque to seal completely The design of the fitting cone is precise and should never leak. I'm a bit suspect of the GTM lines. though. One (Tardcore) has bown apart already. They should not leak at the braid. This may indicate they were not assembled correctly. You can take them apart and check but it's awkward to do on the car. Stainless lines have a very high pressure rating normally but if not fully seated in the sockets this could be reduced significantly and potentially leak..

I would not call them precise fittings, knicks or any imperfections can affect the seal, mostly under high pressure conditions, for which you would use stainless fittings. Aluminium is not considered high pressure and there for should be inspected for knicks or any imperfections(we drop things and aluminum is soft). Voishan seals are made for AN fittings and will compress and make a perfect seal but these are generally used for high pressure applications but will work for low pressure apps as well.
We are only working with a low presure system.
The leaking or weeping at the hose and braid says to me that the hose is not properly installed on the fitting (cut straight) piece of braid has overlapped the hose end or has a bend to close to the fitting that it has distorted the shape of the hose on the fitting and for me I think that that the latter is the main problem with hoses popping off. Aluminum fittings can be over torqued and strip the threads unlike stainless. Snug up the fitting and take 1/4 final turn.
On pipe threads always use teflon tape. Start 1/16-1/8" back from end start to wrap counter clockwise and only take 2 wraps, don't over do it. Becarefull that no tape over laps the end of the fitting as this will get cut off and get into the system. If you remove a pipe fitting with teflon tape on it use a soft wire brush (tape will become clear after use and you may not notice it )to remove excess teflon tape, do not just tape over the fitting. Inspect the other fitting end for left over teflon and remove any that has been left behind if not this stuff will make its way into the system when you reinstall the fittings.

Check your routing and clamping make sure that the bends are not severe.

Thank you both for your experience with this type of issue. I plan to get some pictures up in the next few days to show you guys what I am talking about. I too am worried as I purchased the GTM kit from Tardcore. However, the vendor replaced the suspect hose (with a much too long one at that). I need to confirm with Tardcore that he did not alter the lines, and that they were directly from the vendor .. that may give me a bit more piece of mind.

I think I would be concerned as well. Burst pressure on a correctly assembled Stainless socketed fitting is 1000psi. They shouldn't leak, and they shouldn't blow off. I suspect Tardcores's were pulled off due to no slack, but this may indicate a more serious problem with the hose assembly. If they are both leaking, both the old hose and the new, I would be doubly concerned. Until you can check them, I would keep my eyes glued to the oil pressure light. Correct assembly is outlined at the end of this .PDF:
http://97.74.103.94/files/bhose.pdf

These are re-usable fittings, so you may disassemble to check as mentioned above. It is critical that the hose goes all the way into the socket and is not pushed out when the nipple is tightened.

Good post with the PDF
 

Those are the type of fittings that I would use not the fittings that are just push on with barbs and I believe that those are the fittings that people out there are having problems with not the type shown in the PDF you posted. Also at the end of the PDF it says to proof the fitting at twice the pressure and I am sure that the DIY people do not have the setup to do that. Just make the hose and slap it on. So here again I say have a shop put the fittings on, they have the equipment and will do a static pressure check of the lines for leaks. Just my opinion. Or you can purchase all the tools to do it your self correctly $$$$$$.

What did the oil filter commercial say " Pay me now or Pay me later" ?:tiphat:

Lets move on guys we are beating this one to death.

Both types of fittings have failed. Both DIY and commercial kits.
We can move on anytime, but if the focus on correct installation prevents even one guy from toasting an $8,000 motor, the discussion is worth the time.....:tup:

While I am not ruling out installation or hose length as issues, I did have 3000 track miles on the setup last summer/fall and when I changed the oil a week before the line failed, everything was nice and secure. I would think if the hose was too short, it would have come off much earlier, and not during warmup laps.

I think yours was more of the constant in and out flex from the engine torquing Mike. I'm sure your install was up to speed. The hose stiffness undoubtedly contributes here even with some slack. 3000 track miles probably took their toll. (see the blow off analysis on the previous page)

paralysis by analysis
 

For $7.50 each you can have crimped fittings put on hose of choice. Wether it be braided stainless or just high pressure rubber. Thats $30.00. Do the math, what pecentage of $8000 is $30.00. Please do the crimped fittings

If the crimped fittings blow off I will eat my shorts skid marks and all.
Now routing and clamping is another issue in its self. Ideally at the fitting ends no severe bends, not so loose that they move around, use anti chaffing clamps ( no tye wraps as they will quickly degrade over time and will loosen) maybe 6-8" apart along front.

I have not yet installed my cooler as I have other things in line right now. B&M short shifter, sway bars, 4 point and 2 point stiffeners and goodrige brake lines. Hope to have these done by this weekend and maybe the oil cooler next week. But I have to fit it in as we are building a 1989 944 twin turbo track only car. Body has been stripped and roll cage has been installed and has to go out for paint.

Well...we thought we had One mystery solved. It appears the stainless hose failure (twice) was the result of bad assembly. Vendor points fingers and Buyer denies it... Who knows what really happened other than teh AN fitting(s) were improperly assembled. One less thing for some of you to worry about!... Details in this thread:
http://www.the370z.com/engine-drivet...ler-lines.html

Thanks for the info Mod. I didn't do anything to the lines, and would not have bought a kit by which I would have been required to make the connections as well. The one saving grace was that the line blew in my garage, and not out on the street where it could have wreaked havoc. Though, I still need to clean up all that oil and within the engine bay .. so .. does anyone recommend a degreaser that I could possibly use on the under side of the engine to get all that oil off?

Hose construction revisited

For those of you a little squeamish about the push on socketless fittings, the alternative for DIY would be the socketed style with either braided or stainless jacketed lines. These are virtually Bulletproof provided the ends are installed correctly and the routing follows the recommendations. Scroll to page 5 for hose end assembly instructions: http://97.74.103.94/files/bhose.pdf It is recommended you go with this set-up if you plan to do any tracking of your car where temps may be elevated, and engine movement on the mounts may be exaggerated...
Start with:

10' section of Aeroquipt Stainless AN10 hose AER-FBA1000-10 $75
(2) Mocal 90 degree fittings MOC-F90-10 @ 15.15 each $30.30
(2) Mocal straight AN10 connectors MOC-FS-10 @ $7.49 $14.98
Total $ 120.28

The finished product:
http://images41.fotki.com/v195/photo...MG_2378-vi.jpg

As discussed, allow for large radius bends in the fender well area so the hose ends aren't pulled/pushed as the engine torques on it's mounts. These hoses ended up being 48" and 64" Cut end to cut end:

http://images18.fotki.com/v457/filem.../anfitting.jpg

http://images20.fotki.com/v533/photo...MG_2372-vi.jpg

Be sure to cover any potential areas of abrasion/contact with some cushioning. Stainless line is extremely abrasive and will eventually saw through anything it comes in contact with:
http://images24.fotki.com/v851/photo...MG_2375-vi.jpg

Keep them away from the Power steering hardlines:
http://images24.fotki.com/v852/photo...MG_2377-vi.jpg

General routing across the front of the car:
http://images53.fotki.com/v425/photo...MG_2371-vi.jpg

Engine side:
http://images53.fotki.com/v443/photo...MG_2374-vi.jpg

Modshack,

Thanks for the follow-up. This will be great for future DIYers. Is this your new setup (i.e., braided lines)?

Thanks.

No problem...I made some notes on page one as well..
I already had some stainless line and a few fittings, so decided to make this change to remove any possible question from the equation. Note though, that my original install was still perfect after 3500 miles, so the original design is not necessarily flawed....There are just install and usage variables that might impact the reliability..

I can't believe you left the legion of socketless users.

Gromets for hose lines
 

Modshack

Instead of using the larger hose over the braided line you could use a smaller diameter hose cut to the circumference of the holes, split the hose length wise and install over the hole edges, may make a cleaner look.
Just a suggestion.



Got my B&M short shifter and goodridge brake lines in. Big difference.
Have oil cooler and swaybars but have to make some time to get these done.

The problem with that approach is that movement of the stainless line will saw away at the fabricated grommet. In my set-up the Hose buffers move with the lines so there is no potential abrasion....

Got the parts in today for this DIY, Hope the install goes well.

Naive question (and lazy on my part), but

Does the sway bar move up or down when driving? I am going to assume that, since most installs have the hoses under the sway bar, it moves up and never down.

Thanks.

the part that is bolted to the subframe never moves up and down, just twists. The ends, that are mounted to the control arm move up and down. The twisting resistance is how the bar works to limit body roll. I would say that the area near the radius in the bar probably moves about 1/4th of what the ends move, so if the car has 4" of suspension travel (don't know the exact amount, just a hypothetical), it will deflect about an inch in either direction.

The sandwich plate has the following description:

This compact, lightweight, high-flow sandwich plate incorporporates a 180o oil thermostat to regulate oil flow to the cooler until the engine is properly warmed up. The sandwich plate is 1-5/16" thick with 1/2" Parallel ports.



I understand that 180 should 'probably' be the minimum/ideal oil temp. Can someone clarify this:

1. Based on the description above, does that mean that oil flow gets 'cut off' when the oil temperature falls below 180 deg?

2. If the thermostat acts like an on-off switch, where and when could ' overcooling' occur?

Thanks.

180 to 210 appears to be the ideal oil temperature. The oil never gets totally shut off and there is always some going and coming from the cooler. Depending where you live you could get overcooling and some have devised a partial hood to cover some of the elements. See modshack's first post and he goes into this in some detail.

I saw Modshack's 'hat'. I am just trying to understand the thermostat's engineering. You are correct as when I was playing around, I noticed that the cooler gets warm even though the oil temp has not reach 180. I thought mine was broken (i.e., oil flows even though temp is way below 180.