Smashed my Z

ElVee · 12-20-2013, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakimak

Looks like you'll need:

2 wheels,
2 tires
Front Caliper
Lines
Upper and lower arms
Shock and Spring
Crash bar
Bumper
Driver Fender
Driver Head Light
Control Arm
Inner fender
various suspension bits
Paint and labour
Alignment

BTW - The ZR is not winter worthy

I look at that and I think...umm front body...wheel....other stuff...

I bow to knowledge like that!

nogoodname · 12-20-2013, 09:18 PM

You'll need all those parts but it would suck if the frame is bent which wouldn't be a surprise.

alcheng · 12-24-2013, 08:09 PM

Sorry to hear about your accident bro, but it's good to know you didn't get hurt and the Z is fixable.

1) Do not listen to the autobody shop

2) Go to a shop that you trust, or the shops suggests by the insurance company, or the dealer.

3) Regarding the repair cost... here's the thing:

a) The shop will have to give a list to the insurance company of what parts has to be replaced and what has to be repaired.

b) The list of parts/estimation, have to state what kind of parts, OEM or aftermarket, and the cost/price of it.

c) the insurance company can only approve genuine parts because safety and warranty issue UNLESS genuine parts is no-longer available.

d) some body shop, like the one you are dealing with, will suggest you aftermarket parts aka mod-parts. how they do it? let say the insurance company approve the shop for an amount of money, instead of using the money to buy the parts on the estimate, they will use the money to buy whatever the parts you want or they want.
For example, an OEM intake cost $300, they let you to use the $300 to buy a CAI or whatever, as long as the total doesn't cost more than the amount of money they receive from the insurance company.

However, this is considered insurance fraud.

4) You, as the customer, has the right to ask for the list. The list must have:
a) Parts name and sku#
b) quantity
c) Price
d) # of hour(s) of each repair
e) total price of all the parts
f) total hours of repair
g) tax
h) grand total of the complete job

5) You can also ask the shop to show you the replaced parts after the job is done thus you know they have actually replaced the parts

6) most importantly, communicate with the shop and the insurance company politely, remember, your Z is in their hand.

hope the above CAD$0.02 helps

DEpointfive0 · 12-24-2013, 08:22 PM

^Lmao!!!

CAD .02

H2O_Doc · 12-24-2013, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcheng

However, this is considered insurance fraud.

:

Can you cite? There can be issues if the bank owns the vehicle (the expectation to return a vehicle to a certain condition) but there doesn't seem to be any inherent fraud in your example.

zakimak · 12-24-2013, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

Can you cite? There can be issues if the bank owns the vehicle (the expectation to return a vehicle to a certain condition) but there doesn't seem to be any inherent fraud in your example.

Technically it is fraud in a sense that the approve product was not in stalled per the work order thus make it freaudulant. However, most if not all company are pretty flexible as long as there are no direct kickback of cash involved. Say you are approved for the intake at $300 and you only spent $200 and pockected thge rest. In this case, this outright insurance fraud. That said, if the product installed is the same or within range, they will let it slide. Now the "they" I am referring to is the adjuster, so work with him/her. They can be your friend or your worst nightmare. Don't be a prick and think you're entitled to things and be respectful and you'll likely end up happy.

H2O_Doc · 12-24-2013, 10:22 PM

No, I don't think that meets the legal definition of fraud. You are reading too much into the salient nature of these sorts of transactions. It centers around the matter of what it would cost to be made whole again. You don't necessarily have to even get the work done if you own the car and your insurance lacks a specific clause that requires you to use the check only for repairs. Yep, you can, under some circumstances, blow the money on moon pies and strippers. The notion that you categorically can't select a different part, or that doing automatically constitutes fraud seems pretty far fetched which is why I'm looking for some sort of citation. I admit I could surely be wrong, but I remember learning nothing of the sort and "fraud" is a pretty effin big deal legally. I bet there are clauses and policies that discourage working a way to obtain betterment, but that isn't the same thing as insurance fraud.

It might be reasonably cautionary to say be careful and check your state regs, however.

zakimak · 12-25-2013, 08:04 AM

The canadian cc definition. 380. (1) Every one who, by deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means, whether or not it is a false pretence within the meaning of this Act, defrauds the public or any person, whether ascertained or not, of any property, money or valuable security or any service,.....

Now i am not previed to the us criminal code but since the op is from ontario, this applies. I will double check via the cc. Later.

Additionally, insurance fraud is a lower threshold and are rarely involving the police unless the value is significant and a provable prosecution. But if you are suspected of it and in this case can be deemed as one, the insurance company will put that on your file and good luck trying to get insurance.

Certainly, by getting something that you were not approved of receiving applies. Whether they want to pursue it or not criminally is another matter. I will bet if youre an *** to them, you will be labeled.

Chuck33079 · 12-25-2013, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakimak

Technically it is fraud in a sense that the approve product was not in stalled per the work order thus make it freaudulant. However, most if not all company are pretty flexible as long as there are no direct kickback of cash involved. Say you are approved for the intake at $300 and you only spent $200 and pockected thge rest. In this case, this outright insurance fraud.

Things must be very different in Canada. This is perfectly ok in the US.

H2O_Doc · 12-25-2013, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakimak

The canadian cc definition. 380. (1) Every one who, by deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means, whether or not it is a false pretence within the meaning of this Act, defrauds the public or any person, whether ascertained or not, of any property, money or valuable security or any service,.....

Now i am not previed to the us criminal code but since the op is from ontario, this applies. I will double check via the cc. Later.

Additionally, insurance fraud is a lower threshold and are rarely involving the police unless the value is significant and a provable prosecution. But if you are suspected of it and in this case can be deemed as one, the insurance company will put that on your file and good luck trying to get insurance.

Certainly, by getting something that you were not approved of receiving applies. Whether they want to pursue it or not criminally is another matter. I will bet if youre an *** to them, you will be labeled.

I still don't see fraud inherent here. In its simplest sense, fraud is a misrepresentation of a matter of fact. For the sake of argument in what we have been discussing, that would include claiming that your air intake was damaged when you got rear ended, when, in fact, there was no damage.

Now, if your air intake was damaged, you have the right to be compensated for that intake, let's say to the amount of $600. Unless explicitly spelled out by the legal code or the terms of you insurance policy, what happens to that $600 is not the concern of the insurance company or the state and it is perfectly legal (unless otherwise stipulated) AND ETHICAL to do as you see fit. If you want to pocket it, or get another (different than stock) intake that is your business.

Insurance companies sometimes don't like these sorts of things and they are, in fact, related to fraud. What they don't want to do is create a situation where you have an incentive to either look at every trivial detail that could plausibly be connected to an accident to get a free or discounted upgrade, or to create a situation where you are encouraged to commit outright fraud by claiming damages that didn't occur.

My getting a new Stillen cold air intake after an accident that broke the stock unit isn't fraud unless I said that I would only replace the parts exactly as described in the insurance estimate. It's my car and it's my business what goes on it and insurers shouldn't compel me to install anything in particular; they should provide me fair compensation for my loss and leave it at that. And, that is sometimes all they do in some jurisdictions. Again it does vary and the details matter.

alcheng · 12-25-2013, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

I still don't see fraud inherent here. In its simplest sense, fraud is a misrepresentation of a matter of fact. For the sake of argument in what we have been discussing, that would include claiming that your air intake was damaged when you got rear ended, when, in fact, there was no damage.

Now, if your air intake was damaged, you have the right to be compensated for that intake, let's say to the amount of $600. Unless explicitly spelled out by the legal code or the terms of you insurance policy, what happens to that $600 is not the concern of the insurance company or the state and it is perfectly legal (unless otherwise stipulated) AND ETHICAL to do as you see fit. If you want to pocket it, or get another (different than stock) intake that is your business.

Insurance companies sometimes don't like these sorts of things and they are, in fact, related to fraud. What they don't want to do is create a situation where you have an incentive to either look at every trivial detail that could plausibly be connected to an accident to get a free or discounted upgrade, or to create a situation where you are encouraged to commit outright fraud by claiming damages that didn't occur.

My getting a new Stillen cold air intake after an accident that broke the stock unit isn't fraud unless I said that I would only replace the parts exactly as described in the insurance estimate. It's my car and it's my business what goes on it and insurers shouldn't compel me to install anything in particular; they should provide me fair compensation for my loss and leave it at that. And, that is sometimes all they do in some jurisdictions. Again it does vary and the details matter.

that's what I mean and that's what insurance consider a fraud....

if you put part X on the list but in fact the actual part you use is part y.

this kind of things happened A LOT in Canada about 15~20 years ago and actually those shops and owners who did that got sued by the insurance.

now Mr.H2O_Doc, I just want the OP be careful on the insurance claim thus less potential trouble in the future, and I hope this is fine with you...

H2O_Doc · 12-25-2013, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcheng

that's what I mean and that's what insurance consider a fraud....

if you put part X on the list but in fact the actual part you use is part y.

this kind of things happened A LOT in Canada about 15~20 years ago and actually those shops and owners who did that got sued by the insurance.

now Mr.H2O_Doc, I just want the OP be careful on the insurance claim thus less potential trouble in the future, and I hope this is fine with you...

We agree that your words are a very good cautionary note. I thought it worth noting that it might be perfectly ok in some circumstances to put on something other than what you are being compensated for. We don't want the original poster doing some that that is prohibited, but we do want that poster to know that what they proposed might be perfectly acceptable in some jurisdictions.

alcheng · 12-25-2013, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

We agree that your words are a very good cautionary note. I thought it worth noting that it might be perfectly ok in some circumstances to put on something other than what you are being compensated for. We don't want the original poster doing some that that is prohibited, but we do want that poster to know that what they proposed might be perfectly acceptable in some jurisdictions.

Insurance company in Canada is very cautious about it because lots of kids got into accident and have the shop mod the car for them using that part X part Y trick and eventually got into trouble.

Unless you put Stillen Gen 3 on the list AND the insurance company approve it then you are fine.

but what the OP say is the shop propose him with the part X part Y trick and also they are going to use non-genuine parts, which is an absolute no-no.

zakimak · 12-25-2013, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

We agree that your words are a very good cautionary note. I thought it worth noting that it might be perfectly ok in some circumstances to put on something other than what you are being compensated for. We don't want the original poster doing some that that is prohibited, but we do want that poster to know that what they proposed might be perfectly acceptable in some jurisdictions.

Thats what alcheng and i are attempting to illustrate. When it comes to criminality and potential issues, it is always safer to err on the side of caution. I for one will not advise someone to do something that might result in possible charges. I will reply to your earlier post when i am home to specifically point out why it would be consider to be fraud. Insurance policies are specifically designed for replacement or repair with parts that will result in a state as it was before the claim. You are not allowed to use the repair or replacement money for anything else whether its for the noted strippers. All that said is that it still can be done provided the insurer is agreeable which applies on right-offs

SIKHRYDE · 01-03-2014, 02:44 PM

OK so basically the damage list came back and its $24,000!!

Anyways below is the full spec sheet.....

The autobody shop said they basically are all OEM parts with the exception of 2 items:

The Front Bumper Cover and the Front Bumper Reinforcement Bar.

I am going to try to contact my insurance company (Coachman) to see if they can give me OEM parts.... any tips would be great.

Secondly they are giving me 2 new tires (and rims) on the left hand side, do I need to worry about the fact that the rubber on the right hand side is used?

I mean I guess I dont expect insurance to put me in a better spot with all new tires.... but do I need to or purchase new tires so it is all even?

Lastly - this is where I can really use your expertise...

I have to replace parts like my front headlights... which look like to be $1300 each - so should I look for some custom lights now to install? If so any recommendations?

And what else should I do custom thats worth it based on this list?

12-24-2013, 08:09 PM	#33 (permalink)
alcheng A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Toronto Posts: 28,893 Drives: 2011 ZR PW w/Clutch Rep Power: 418352	Sorry to hear about your accident bro, but it's good to know you didn't get hurt and the Z is fixable. 1) Do not listen to the autobody shop 2) Go to a shop that you trust, or the shops suggests by the insurance company, or the dealer. 3) Regarding the repair cost... here's the thing: a) The shop will have to give a list to the insurance company of what parts has to be replaced and what has to be repaired. b) The list of parts/estimation, have to state what kind of parts, OEM or aftermarket, and the cost/price of it. c) the insurance company can only approve genuine parts because safety and warranty issue UNLESS genuine parts is no-longer available. d) some body shop, like the one you are dealing with, will suggest you aftermarket parts aka mod-parts. how they do it? let say the insurance company approve the shop for an amount of money, instead of using the money to buy the parts on the estimate, they will use the money to buy whatever the parts you want or they want. For example, an OEM intake cost $300, they let you to use the $300 to buy a CAI or whatever, as long as the total doesn't cost more than the amount of money they receive from the insurance company. However, this is considered insurance fraud. 4) You, as the customer, has the right to ask for the list. The list must have: a) Parts name and sku# b) quantity c) Price d) # of hour(s) of each repair e) total price of all the parts f) total hours of repair g) tax h) grand total of the complete job 5) You can also ask the shop to show you the replaced parts after the job is done thus you know they have actually replaced the parts 6) most importantly, communicate with the shop and the insurance company politely, remember, your Z is in their hand. hope the above CAD$0.02 helps JARblue likes this. Last edited by alcheng; 12-24-2013 at 08:12 PM.

12-24-2013, 08:22 PM	#34 (permalink)
DEpointfive0 Premium Member Bitches Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SoCal Posts: 14,824 Drives: a lot Rep Power: 17151	^Lmao!!! CAD .02 __________________ Do YOU want to know what/where I got my username from? ( Click to show/hide ) NSFW due to language:

12-24-2013, 10:22 PM	#37 (permalink)
H2O_Doc A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Northern VA Posts: 1,083 Drives: '14 370Z, '12 4Runr Rep Power: 14	No, I don't think that meets the legal definition of fraud. You are reading too much into the salient nature of these sorts of transactions. It centers around the matter of what it would cost to be made whole again. You don't necessarily have to even get the work done if you own the car and your insurance lacks a specific clause that requires you to use the check only for repairs. Yep, you can, under some circumstances, blow the money on moon pies and strippers. The notion that you categorically can't select a different part, or that doing automatically constitutes fraud seems pretty far fetched which is why I'm looking for some sort of citation. I admit I could surely be wrong, but I remember learning nothing of the sort and "fraud" is a pretty effin big deal legally. I bet there are clauses and policies that discourage working a way to obtain betterment, but that isn't the same thing as insurance fraud. It might be reasonably cautionary to say be careful and check your state regs, however. Chuck33079 likes this.

12-25-2013, 08:04 AM	#38 (permalink)
zakimak 6/2/80 - 9/29/14 - RIP Lukas Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ottawa, Ontario Posts: 450 Drives: ZR; Q45; VTR1K, GT65 Rep Power: 16	The canadian cc definition. 380. (1) Every one who, by deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means, whether or not it is a false pretence within the meaning of this Act, defrauds the public or any person, whether ascertained or not, of any property, money or valuable security or any service,..... Now i am not previed to the us criminal code but since the op is from ontario, this applies. I will double check via the cc. Later. Additionally, insurance fraud is a lower threshold and are rarely involving the police unless the value is significant and a provable prosecution. But if you are suspected of it and in this case can be deemed as one, the insurance company will put that on your file and good luck trying to get insurance. Certainly, by getting something that you were not approved of receiving applies. Whether they want to pursue it or not criminally is another matter. I will bet if youre an * to them, you will be labeled. __________________ What doesn't kill you might make you a cripple so chose wisely.** Free Stuff for Premium Members - Yeah Really

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12-20-2013, 09:18 PM	#32 (permalink)
nogoodname Lifetime Premium Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 22,357 Drives: E46 M3 Rep Power: 1764	You'll need all those parts but it would suck if the frame is bent which wouldn't be a surprise.

01-03-2014, 02:44 PM	#45 (permalink)
SIKHRYDE Base Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Mississauga Posts: 77 Drives: 2010 Nissan 370z Rep Power: 13	OK so basically the damage list came back and its $24,000!! Anyways below is the full spec sheet..... The autobody shop said they basically are all OEM parts with the exception of 2 items: The Front Bumper Cover and the Front Bumper Reinforcement Bar. I am going to try to contact my insurance company (Coachman) to see if they can give me OEM parts.... any tips would be great. Secondly they are giving me 2 new tires (and rims) on the left hand side, do I need to worry about the fact that the rubber on the right hand side is used? I mean I guess I dont expect insurance to put me in a better spot with all new tires.... but do I need to or purchase new tires so it is all even? Lastly - this is where I can really use your expertise... I have to replace parts like my front headlights... which look like to be $1300 each - so should I look for some custom lights now to install? If so any recommendations? And what else should I do custom thats worth it based on this list?