BBK Comparison thread: Brembo vs. StopTech vs. AP Racing

[AP - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by imag

My understanding of ABS is that it can bring each wheel to threshold (and over and back) independently, so a full four wheel ABS stop should negate bias, so long as there is enough force on the brakes to get all four wheels to the point of lockup. Am I missing something about how ABS functions?

ABS does essentially function that way, but it cannot override physics. A modern 4-channel ABS computer can REDUCE brake line pressure for any corner that is starting to lock up. It does not INCREASE pressure for the corners that still have unused grip to offer. So, yes, it offers stability (which is safer), but doesn't necessarily shorten stopping distances. A properly balanced brake system (both mechanically and thermally) is required, with ABS being an added bonus for those drivers who would benefit from it.

Originally Posted by imag

I wish we had a set of reliably good drivers testing all the kits, but we just don't right now - we're the guinea pigs for this car.

Actually, guys like Steve Millen are the guinea pigs. Reputable companies do their own testing and evaluation before the customer ever hears of a newly released product -- that is, if they plan on staying around for a while. That doesn't make any company perfect or void of errors, but it would be ridiculous for companies that have been around as long as Stillen, AP Racing, etc., to risk their reputation on anything less. As far as the Nissan/Infiniti platform are concerned, no one has more experience with these cars than Stillen/AP Racing -- period.

Last week at SEMA, I walked past maybe 15 or more new brake system offerings from Asia/India/Viet Nam/wherever. None of them had the history or reputation that made me even want to stop and ask a few questions. I've seen such systems with other logos (almost anyone can have private-label brakes made these days) fail miserably at the track or in a canyon. I know of quite a few cars that have been totaled as a result. Let the buyer beware.

Originally Posted by imag

One final note - StopTech may have a lot of marketing, but at least they have put some of that money into educating people about brakes. Sure, it serves their own ends, and they no doubt cast themselves in a good light, but those kinds of articles are better than nothing, *especially* with all the crap that get spouted on the net. I would rather see mostly factual whitepaper marketing than just the usual glamour shots (which I realize AP doesn't bother with either). It's hard to find good information, and I think it's actually helpful when a manufacturer talks about *why* they think they have the best product. If they say they are the best because they have more pistons or shinier colors, well at least you know where they stand. People who lay down facts, discuss weak points, and admit where compromises and value engineering have to take place are generally more trustworthy in general than people who just say their product has the majick sauce...

The boys and girls over at S-T have done a solid job in marketing their product and educating their customer -- and kudos to them for it. The bigger companies could do a better job than has been done, that's for sure! I have several ideas that I hope to get time to put in place over the winter. However, a "white paper" doesn't help me much when approaching Turn 2 at Laguna Seca a bit too hot...

Take a good look at the customer list that Josh posted up. Those guys have the budget and engineering resources to make any brake supplier shake in their boots. Each and every application is treated like a make-or-break deal for the company. Also take a look at the new Arash AF-10 that was just announced: Arash plans Veyron beater - Autocar.co.uk OK, it's a long way from a Nissan 370Z, but look at what the makers of this $535,000, 250+mph supercar turned to for brakes. Their customers are not guinea pigs.

Chris

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by AP - Chris_B

The bigger companies could do a better job than has been done, that's for sure!

I agree with Chris wholeheartedly on this statement.

It's a topic that comes up in every single product meeting that we have in my company. We get glimpses and pulses into what Brembo is doing conceptually, through R&D, and in testing, every day that is still amazing to all of us (who are able to geek out on these products every day), and we wish that we could just share a fraction of this with the rest of the world.

I know it sounds sounds a bit cliche, but Big companies like AP, and Brembo are "doers" not "talkers". Call it ego if you will, but they really do believe that the results should peak for themselves, and no matter what the other companies will tell you, it's these OEM relationships, combined with years of history dominating all facets of top level racing, that directly influence the products that you guys will be buying for your own cars.

Originally Posted by vividracing

The ONLY negative you ever hear about Brembo is in relation to some of their OEM products, and most of the time that is due to a driver who is inexperienced about vehicle setup and not fully aware that there is a limitation to anything OEM.

This is another statement that I hope people take a full face value.

Brembo is the largest OEM supplier of High Performance braking products in the world. Because of their reputation in top level racing, people have very high expectations for all of their products, which I believe people should. The problem is that many people have these expectations without the necessary knowledge to understand exactly what they have or how to dial it in correctly.

OEM developed product, Brembo or not, still has to meet a criteria set forth by the auto maker. And unless they are Porsche, setting the criteria for brakes on the next GT3, you are not getting directionally veined 2pc discs, monobloc calipers, and Pagid pads. Many times Brembo is the choice for performance and quality, but budget restraints dictate the final product more so than the original desire to use their products. These cars end up in many different driveways all over the world, different drivers, different driving styles, different road conditions and climates.

An OEM system must operate in a comfortable manner in every situation, and this does compromise peak performance for enthusiasts like you and I. People know that you can enhance a system with better fluid, braided lines, and better pads. But even with this knowledge some people are going too aggressive with pad which can have adverse affects on performance again. There is a proper way to dial in an OEM system, but your expectations still have to be in line with the capabilities of the product.

The benefit to the aftermarket Brembo products...all of the R&D, testing and knowledge from OE development is readily available before the vehicle is even available for sale. The aftermarket products do not need to follow the same criteria to suit the needs of every driver and they are developed specifically for high performance and track use. Budget restraints do not limit the level of product that ends up in the final system and you do end up with components that come directly from top level racing, or that are developed to rival those performance capabilities.

IE:
- The discs used in aftermarket Brembo brake systems are the same that are used every weekend in every top level race series around the globe. The 14" disc used in the 370Z brake kit is the identical part # used on an ALMS race car, or Grand AM GT car.
- The calipers are developed specifically for the High Performance aftermarket but draw from design and manufacturing traits of top level monobloc race calipers. The purpose here is to provide race like performance, weight savings, and stiffness, but in a package that can also be driven for the life of the vehicle without he additional maintenance of rebuilding.
- The rotor hardware has developed for the McLaren F1 as a way to provide full floating performance without the excessive noise of rotor chatter, and is still used in all of our aftermarket 2pc. discs.

No gimmicks, technical white papers, or exciting marketing tactics here...just well developed products by one of the most capable companies in the industry, with real world results.