BBK Comparison thread: Brembo vs. StopTech vs. AP Racing

[imag]

I realized that front brake ducting is going to require some pretty complex bits, especially because the front caliper is on the wrong side (front). I also realized that buying 2-piece rotors + ducting vs. a BBK minus about $1K for selling the Akebonos means that it's probably worth the extra money to just go with a BBK.

That leaves me a decision to make - which kit? I figure others are going through the same thing and there are multiple threads on each kit.

So this thread is a place to post real facts about each kit. Reputations are not the issue - each of these companies can make incredible brakes. What we need to compare are the specifics of the 370Z kits.

One metric is weight - what are the weights of the calipers and rotors for each kit?

Second, I would invite vendors or others to present actual data about why their brakes are good, what testing was done on this particular kit (again, generalizations about their product line are less important), etc. I think brake balance may be the most important thing - a great set of calipers and rotors that weren't actually tested and balanced with the car will increase stopping distances. For instance, I've seen the StopTech videos of testing on other cars - was that done for the 370 (or G37)?

I'll start:

Brembo, I think, still only have a front brake kit, which could actually increase overall stopping distances, although it would help with fade.

Then there's the silly stuff like colors:

Brembos: Black, Red, Yellow, Silver
StopTech: Black, Red
AP: Black, Red, Grey

[bullitt5897]

Dont forget Alliance! They have the best priced kit with the most options!!!









Here's what you're getting in total with the big brake kit:

Fully forged aluminum calipers
Anodized finish, your choice of Red, Blue, Black, and Gold
Laser engraved logo, no lame stickers
2 piece rotors with color matched hats (anodized also)
Your Choice of rotor design, slotted (as seen in the red kit pictures) or cross-drilled and slotted (as seen in the blue kit pictures).
Stainless Steel braided brake lines
Street compound pads included
Mounting brackets, hardware, and everything you need to hit the roads

Front: 8 Piston, 380mm/15" rotors
Rear: 6 Piston, 356mm/14" rotors

The 380mm rotors require 19" wheels. If you have 18" wheels, an 8 piston, 14" rotor is available to fit your setup.

Budget wise I find this kit much more reasonable than AP, Brembo, Rotora or Stoptech!

[RCZ]

Just buy the AP Racing 6-pot f 4pot rear and call it a day. I have heard they are the best kit for the money out right now...from very reputable sources...like professional race teams, not vendors who want to sell a product.

Buying anything bigger is dumb, you limit your choice in pads and pad prices skyrocket. Don't buy hype, buy performance if its performance you want.

[imag]

Originally Posted by RCZ

Just buy the AP Racing 6-pot f 4pot rear and call it a day. I have heard they are the best kit for the money out right now...from very reputable sources...like professional race teams, not vendors who want to sell a product.

Buying anything bigger is dumb, you limit your choice in pads and pad prices skyrocket. Don't buy hype, buy performance if its performance you want.

Yeah, it's basically between AP and StopTech. The only concern I have about the AP kit is that it was basically pieced together for this application - I haven't seen any testing on the resulting stopping distances. StopTech usually does a pretty good job on their testing before putting out a kit, although I'm not sure they did much in this case.

I also thought it might be good to have a resource thread for people to refer to in the future or on web searches. The weights, for instance, would be worth getting in one defined location. I actually thought you would care more than anyone about a factual comparison.

Bullitt - I totally appreciate the post. I'd personally shy away from that kit because I my guess is that it's more for show than anything (8 piston calipers are, from what I've read, totally unnecessary). That said, I think you're right that the information belongs on this thread.

[AP - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by imag

The only concern I have about the AP kit is that it was basically pieced together for this application - I haven't seen any testing on the resulting stopping distances.

I'm not sure where this information came from, but it is absolutely 100% incorrect. AP Racing brake kits are highly engineered and tested. Stillen, who has been designing and building brake upgrades for almost 20 years and originally brought Brembo to the North American aftermarket, works closely with the OE and racing engineers at AP in the UK. These kits are in use by customers all over the world from day-to-day street driving to hot lapping.

Tests aren't published for a variety of reasons. However, the real test is in the field. I would suggest asking several people with AP Racing brakes who use them in a variety of ways how they feel about their purchase. Anything can be photographed/filmed/posted on a web site for marketing purposes, but AP Racing and Stillen apparently don't spend as much money there as others might. Reputations are much more important in the long run anyway.

One-off stopping distance tests are almost irrelevant. The stock brakes can lock up the tires and cause the ABS to kick in. If you want shorter 60-0mph panic stops, buy stickier tires. However, let's take those OE brakes through some canyons or out to an HPDE and see how they hold up (yes, including those fancy looking Sport brakes). Brake system upgrades are there to increase heat capacity while decreasing weight. These goals are diametrically opposed, so you better make sure you are working with a company that has a LOT of experience in this area. This is why there is a certain solid and predictable "feel" with AP Racing brakes that is not found in other systems -- a result of decades of experience. Any company with machine tools can hog out calipers out of chunks of aluminum and smother them with glossy paint. So let the buyer beware.

AP Racing supplies brakes and engineering support to top race teams all over the world -- and gives nothing away in terms of sponsorship. They are just not geared that way. All teams pay for their product. No logos on the hood or Danica Patrick hocking the brand on Versus. These teams have many choices and can get lots of stuff for free, but choose to buy AP because winning is what they do. How does around $30k for your Sprint Cup ride sound (that's per car and doesn't include pads, lines or brake fluid!)? Don't even ask about Formula 1!

Stillen is trusted to maintain this reputation not by piecing kits together, but engineering total brake system solutions. This partnership has been in place since 1995 and is still strong today.

Please excuse the rant, but I've heard this once or twice before. It is always shocking to see misinformation spread around without support or justification, but if it isn't laid to rest someone might start believing it is true.

Chris

[RCZ]

Originally Posted by bullitt5897

hey Mike I think I know one of the reasons your stockers got too hot... You were running your 18's + Aggressive pads? If that was the case couldnt the smaller diameter wheel help to shield the heat into the caliper and not allow enough airflow through the pads effectively oven baking your brakes?.... I dont know just a thought I had when I had the wheels off monday night and remembering how close your calipers were to the wheel wall.

Nah, this has nothing to do with it....I mean no offense, I know you were throwing that out there.

Also, thats a lot of Bling my friend, I just have one ugly out of focus picture to answer you with:



AP Racing 6 Pots.

Originally Posted by AP - Chris_B

I'm not sure where this information came from, but it is absolutely 100% incorrect. AP Racing brake kits are highly engineered and tested. Stillen, who has been designing and building brake upgrades for almost 20 years and originally brought Brembo to the North American aftermarket, works closely with the OE and racing engineers at AP in the UK. These kits are in use by customers all over the world from day-to-day street driving to hot lapping.

Tests aren't published for a variety of reasons. However, the real test is in the field. I would suggest asking several people with AP Racing brakes who use them in a variety of ways how they feel about their purchase. Anything can be photographed/filmed/posted on a web site for marketing purposes, but AP Racing and Stillen apparently don't spend as much money there as others might. Reputations are much more important in the long run anyway.

One-off stopping distance tests are almost irrelevant. The stock brakes can lock up the tires and cause the ABS to kick in. If you want shorter 60-0mph panic stops, buy stickier tires. However, let's take those OE brakes through some canyons or out to an HPDE and see how they hold up (yes, including those fancy looking Sport brakes). Brake system upgrades are there to increase heat capacity while decreasing weight. These goals are diametrically opposed, so you better make sure you are working with a company that has a LOT of experience in this area. This is why there is a certain solid and predictable "feel" with AP Racing brakes that is not found in other systems -- a result of decades of experience. Any company with machine tools can hog out calipers out of chunks of aluminum and smother them with glossy paint. So let the buyer beware.

AP Racing supplies brakes and engineering support to top race teams all over the world -- and gives nothing away in terms of sponsorship. They are just not geared that way. All teams pay for their product. No logos on the hood or Danica Patrick hocking the brand on Versus. These teams have many choices and can get lots of stuff for free, but choose to buy AP because winning is what they do. How does around $30k for your Sprint Cup ride sound (that's per car and doesn't include pads, lines or brake fluid!)? Don't even ask about Formula 1!

Stillen is trusted to maintain this reputation not by piecing kits together, but engineering total brake system solutions. This partnership has been in place since 1995 and is still strong today.

Please excuse the rant, but I've heard this once or twice before. It is always shocking to see misinformation spread around without support or justification, but if it isn't laid to rest someone might start believing it is true.

Chris

Chris are you really surprised there is wrong information on the internet?

Want to send me a BBK? I promise to use it a lot Josh wants money for it or something crazy like that... hehe

[AP - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by RCZ

Want to send me a BBK? I promise to use it a lot Josh wants money for it or something crazy like that... hehe

Sure, why not? The day after I get a free BBK you can put your name on the list!

Chris

[Josh@STILLEN]

Originally Posted by RCZ

Josh wants money for it or something crazy like that... hehe

LOL! Not me.. I'm in marketing.. but there is this guy around here named Steve Millen who really likes keeping the lights on..

[imag]

Originally Posted by AP - Chris_B

I'm not sure where this information came from, but it is absolutely 100% incorrect. ...

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for weighing in. I'm honestly leaning toward AP for many of the reasons you outlined. As far as misinformation, I don't want to start a war, but this seems pretty well reasoned:

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

I could see bias being irrelevant if ABS is engaged at all four wheels, but it would still matter the rest of the time, during trail braking, etc.. I realize that you're used to combating people who are trying to say that braking distance, measured in feet, is the sole measure of a braking system (and it was the car mags, not the internet, that started that, BTW), but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was pushing for test data that was done with this system on this car. If you can't release it, fine. But don't get mad at me for asking.

I'm also not saying that the AP system is not calibrated as far as bias. However, when it comes to dropping $5K on a BBK system with multiple good options, it's worth paying attention to facts, not hype. You have to remember where some of us sit. You are in an industry where companies (*cough* Brembo) released downmarket products that did not live up to a once top-tier reputation. Sometimes it's worth being suspicious of the first product on the market. I don't think it's unreasonable to be as informed as possible before dropping the coin. Personally, I like knowing *why* something I buy is good as much as knowing just that it's the best, but maybe that's the geek in me...

Anyway, rants are always appreciated.

[AP - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by imag

I could see bias being irrelevant if ABS is engaged at all four wheels, but it would still matter the rest of the time, during trail braking, etc.. I realize that you're used to combating people who are trying to say that braking distance, measured in feet, is the sole measure of a braking system (and it was the car mags, not the internet, that started that, BTW), but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was pushing for test data that was done with this system on this car. If you can't release it, fine. But don't get mad at me for asking.

I'm also not saying that the AP system is not calibrated as far as bias. However, when it comes to dropping $5K on a BBK system with multiple good options, it's worth paying attention to facts, not hype. You have to remember where some of us sit. You are in an industry where companies (*cough* Brembo) released downmarket products that did not live up to a once top-tier reputation. Sometimes it's worth being suspicious of the first product on the market. I don't think it's unreasonable to be as informed as possible before dropping the coin. Personally, I like knowing *why* something I buy is good as much as knowing just that it's the best, but maybe that's the geek in me...

Bias is definitely not irrelevant as ABS does not alter the laws of physics. But it is a moving target. What I mean by that is if you dial a brake system in for a completely stock vehicle at stock ride height and stock spring/dampers, you won't have achieved a 100% optimum balance for a lowered car with stiffer springs and dampers. Why? Because now the vehicle's weight doesn't shift forward as much for the same braking effort. Therefore, more braking can be done by the rear tires. Fill the gas tank and put a passenger in the car and now the numbers are different yet again!

A few years back, I was working for an Indycar manufacturer. We would spend countless hours in the wind tunnel working with aerodyanmicists to keep the center of downforce pressure from shifting forward under braking. When the nose goes down and the tail goes up, the venturi effect of the underwing/tunnels is weakened. Losing rear downforce causes premature rear wheel lockup under heavy braking at high speeds. By changing certain aspects of the tunnel design, we were able to significantly reduce this shift. That way, the driver was able to dial the brake bias rearward if the track conditions would allow it. Those cars were unbeatable under braking as was proven at many tracks that season.

The point? Proper brake system balance is a compromise between a vehicle's dynamics, estimations of how the car might be otherwise modified and by how much, available components and a list of other factors. Plus, no one should be required to change their master cylinder (race cars have two brake master cylinders that can be easily swapped for slightly larger or smaller ones, plus a balance bar the driver uses to dynamically fine tune front/rear bias while on the track as the fuel load changes). Consider all this and you may start to understand why this level of detail is not published.

I can offer this: If the brake system bias is wrong for the car and it is pushed hard, everyone the buyer knows will hear about it. The Internet makes sure of that these days. Talking directly to those who have the system on their car and are of sufficient skill level to make a reasonable evaluation will often yield better results than listening to a manufacturer's talking heads or browsing through web sites. These systems are just too expensive to put on the market and risk negative feedback. Sure, some will like one brand over another. But put a few bad kits out there and your name turns to $h!t quickly. AP Racing and Stillen just can't take that chance as they have almost 40 years and 24 years, respectively, of reputation building at stake.

If you are going to be seriously competing with your car, AP Racing makes a variety of professional racing products that are fully adjustable for any track you wish to compete on. Just be sure you bring a lot more than $5k! But for street/track day kits, that amount will get you nicely dialed in for years to come.

And, no I'm not mad. I have 3 kids, so forum discussions are no match for those professional button-pushers! I do take issue, however, when unfounded claims are made out of thin air with no supporting evidence. I have no idea what you do for a living, but if someone claimed without cause that you simply pieced your work together instead of approaching it professionally (especially if peoples' lives depend on your efforts), you might take issue as well.

Cheers,

Chris

[Z1Performance]

Originally Posted by imag

Yeah, it's basically between AP and StopTech. The only concern I have about the AP kit is that it was basically pieced together for this application - I haven't seen any testing on the resulting stopping distances. StopTech usually does a pretty good job on their testing before putting out a kit, although I'm not sure they did much in this case.

I also thought it might be good to have a resource thread for people to refer to in the future or on web searches. The weights, for instance, would be worth getting in one defined location. I actually thought you would care more than anyone about a factual comparison.

Bullitt - I totally appreciate the post. I'd personally shy away from that kit because I my guess is that it's more for show than anything (8 piston calipers are, from what I've read, totally unnecessary). That said, I think you're right that the information belongs on this thread.

A big brake kit's job is not to stop the car shorter. If you want to have shorter distances, take weight off the car, or increase the grip of the tire

I've owned BBK's by every worth while manufacturer out there, so I'll offer some constructive advise

1. some kits offer a variety of useful options that you are allowed to select from the get go. Such as various hat mounting methods, various disk sizes, various pad compounds.

2. serviceability - every kit at a certain point will need pads. Every kit will need rotors. Those rotors may (or may not) come with the new hardware you'll need to attach to the hats. This should all be part of your decision process. You don't want to find out that that bling blang bbk you got is impossible to find pads for. Doesn't seem like a big deal now, but it can be in 2-3 years down the road. My current cars have an AP and Endless kit on them. It's nice to know I can call any number of firms and have a plethora of pad compounds to choose from.

3. you're not going to fnd white papers on these products for a variety of reasons.

4. The top tier firms all offer similar quality kits from an engineering standpoint. ALL of them test the kits and produce them specifically for the platform. It's the lesser brands out there that take the one size fits all approach. Stoptech focuses their marketing on this point and it's a very valid point - we're big Stoptech fans here. That being said, several other firms take that same approach to the development side of things as well

[ChrisSlicks]

^^ Reported

[SOLISIMO]

Originally Posted by RCZ

Just buy the AP Racing 6-pot f 4pot rear and call it a day. I have heard they are the best kit for the money out right now...from very reputable sources...like professional race teams, not vendors who want to sell a product.

Buying anything bigger is dumb, you limit your choice in pads and pad prices skyrocket. Don't buy hype, buy performance if its performance you want.

You know I never even thought about the pads when considering bigger brakes, thanks for the heads up bc I was looking into the Alliance kit but just for looks bc I dont race the car.

How much more are the pads

[Mike]

I extremely happy with the front. Brembo gt caliper upgrade. It doesn't feel unbalanced, holds up great for 30 min sessions, and are relatively inexpensive. Brembo does make a rear kit also, I just think they aren't necessary.

Bullitt, the other kits don't use stickers either, the logos are silk screened on with paint.

[bullitt5897]

hey Mike I think I know one of the reasons your stockers got too hot... You were running your 18's + Aggressive pads? If that was the case couldnt the smaller diameter wheel help to shield the heat into the caliper and not allow enough airflow through the pads effectively oven baking your brakes?.... I dont know just a thought I had when I had the wheels off monday night and remembering how close your calipers were to the wheel wall.