BBK Comparison thread: Brembo vs. StopTech vs. AP Racing

[Josh@STILLEN]

Originally Posted by RCZ

Josh wants money for it or something crazy like that... hehe

LOL! Not me.. I'm in marketing.. but there is this guy around here named Steve Millen who really likes keeping the lights on..

[imag]

Originally Posted by AP - Chris_B

I'm not sure where this information came from, but it is absolutely 100% incorrect. ...

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for weighing in. I'm honestly leaning toward AP for many of the reasons you outlined. As far as misinformation, I don't want to start a war, but this seems pretty well reasoned:

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

I could see bias being irrelevant if ABS is engaged at all four wheels, but it would still matter the rest of the time, during trail braking, etc.. I realize that you're used to combating people who are trying to say that braking distance, measured in feet, is the sole measure of a braking system (and it was the car mags, not the internet, that started that, BTW), but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was pushing for test data that was done with this system on this car. If you can't release it, fine. But don't get mad at me for asking.

I'm also not saying that the AP system is not calibrated as far as bias. However, when it comes to dropping $5K on a BBK system with multiple good options, it's worth paying attention to facts, not hype. You have to remember where some of us sit. You are in an industry where companies (*cough* Brembo) released downmarket products that did not live up to a once top-tier reputation. Sometimes it's worth being suspicious of the first product on the market. I don't think it's unreasonable to be as informed as possible before dropping the coin. Personally, I like knowing *why* something I buy is good as much as knowing just that it's the best, but maybe that's the geek in me...

Anyway, rants are always appreciated.

[RCZ]

Originally Posted by AP - Chris_B

Sure, why not? The day after I get a free BBK you can put your name on the list!

Chris

<----Patient hahaha

Originally Posted by Josh@STILLEN

LOL! Not me.. I'm in marketing.. but there is this guy around here named Steve Millen who really likes keeping the lights on..

LOL. BTW answer my e-mail. I am clearly outraged.

[ResIpsa]

You forgot

Nissan 370Z 1.27.5 (Akebono)


But no disrespect to AP, those are specialized parts for discerning drivers.

[Mike]

Actually, AP was my first choice, but the template I downloaded from Stillen showed they wouldn't fit my wheels. The brembo kit had no template, so it was a blind guess, and I had to grind on them anyways, but I made them fit. I have nothing but the utmost respect for APR

[AP - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by imag

I could see bias being irrelevant if ABS is engaged at all four wheels, but it would still matter the rest of the time, during trail braking, etc.. I realize that you're used to combating people who are trying to say that braking distance, measured in feet, is the sole measure of a braking system (and it was the car mags, not the internet, that started that, BTW), but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was pushing for test data that was done with this system on this car. If you can't release it, fine. But don't get mad at me for asking.

I'm also not saying that the AP system is not calibrated as far as bias. However, when it comes to dropping $5K on a BBK system with multiple good options, it's worth paying attention to facts, not hype. You have to remember where some of us sit. You are in an industry where companies (*cough* Brembo) released downmarket products that did not live up to a once top-tier reputation. Sometimes it's worth being suspicious of the first product on the market. I don't think it's unreasonable to be as informed as possible before dropping the coin. Personally, I like knowing *why* something I buy is good as much as knowing just that it's the best, but maybe that's the geek in me...

Bias is definitely not irrelevant as ABS does not alter the laws of physics. But it is a moving target. What I mean by that is if you dial a brake system in for a completely stock vehicle at stock ride height and stock spring/dampers, you won't have achieved a 100% optimum balance for a lowered car with stiffer springs and dampers. Why? Because now the vehicle's weight doesn't shift forward as much for the same braking effort. Therefore, more braking can be done by the rear tires. Fill the gas tank and put a passenger in the car and now the numbers are different yet again!

A few years back, I was working for an Indycar manufacturer. We would spend countless hours in the wind tunnel working with aerodyanmicists to keep the center of downforce pressure from shifting forward under braking. When the nose goes down and the tail goes up, the venturi effect of the underwing/tunnels is weakened. Losing rear downforce causes premature rear wheel lockup under heavy braking at high speeds. By changing certain aspects of the tunnel design, we were able to significantly reduce this shift. That way, the driver was able to dial the brake bias rearward if the track conditions would allow it. Those cars were unbeatable under braking as was proven at many tracks that season.

The point? Proper brake system balance is a compromise between a vehicle's dynamics, estimations of how the car might be otherwise modified and by how much, available components and a list of other factors. Plus, no one should be required to change their master cylinder (race cars have two brake master cylinders that can be easily swapped for slightly larger or smaller ones, plus a balance bar the driver uses to dynamically fine tune front/rear bias while on the track as the fuel load changes). Consider all this and you may start to understand why this level of detail is not published.

I can offer this: If the brake system bias is wrong for the car and it is pushed hard, everyone the buyer knows will hear about it. The Internet makes sure of that these days. Talking directly to those who have the system on their car and are of sufficient skill level to make a reasonable evaluation will often yield better results than listening to a manufacturer's talking heads or browsing through web sites. These systems are just too expensive to put on the market and risk negative feedback. Sure, some will like one brand over another. But put a few bad kits out there and your name turns to $h!t quickly. AP Racing and Stillen just can't take that chance as they have almost 40 years and 24 years, respectively, of reputation building at stake.

If you are going to be seriously competing with your car, AP Racing makes a variety of professional racing products that are fully adjustable for any track you wish to compete on. Just be sure you bring a lot more than $5k! But for street/track day kits, that amount will get you nicely dialed in for years to come.

And, no I'm not mad. I have 3 kids, so forum discussions are no match for those professional button-pushers! I do take issue, however, when unfounded claims are made out of thin air with no supporting evidence. I have no idea what you do for a living, but if someone claimed without cause that you simply pieced your work together instead of approaching it professionally (especially if peoples' lives depend on your efforts), you might take issue as well.

Cheers,

Chris

[imag]

My understanding of ABS is that it can bring each wheel to threshold (and over and back) independently, so a full four wheel ABS stop should negate bias, so long as there is enough force on the brakes to get all four wheels to the point of lockup. Am I missing something about how ABS functions?

I actually didn't realize AP was involved in the Stillen kit. My assumption was that they chose calipers and disks that roughly matched the requirements. Apologies to all for that assumption.

I wish we had a set of reliably good drivers testing all the kits, but we just don't right now - we're the guinea pigs for this car. I would generally trust Travis because I've seen from his videos that he can drive, but otherwise everyone wants to say that what they bought is great - and truthfully almost any of these kits should at least be a big improvement over the Akebonos - so it's hard to tell from hearsay at this point. In two years, the best track setups (sways, alignments, pads, etc.) will be common knowledge, but right now, I think it's worth assembling any reporting we can to start that process. That was why I started the thread.

Your point about reputation with regard for a critical component like brakes is well noted, although Brembo has put together some brake kits for OEMs that don't do their reputation any good (I'm sure it's made them money though!). AP seems to show zero sign of going that route, but that's why I have been perhaps overly reluctant to just trust a name. There are also way too many companies in the automotive business (including entire car companies) who tout their high-quality racing experience while the stuff they are selling at the consumer level is completely different and, in some cases, total crap. AP may be great, but you have to admit that we have reason to be wary.

One final note - StopTech may have a lot of marketing, but at least they have put some of that money into educating people about brakes. Sure, it serves their own ends, and they no doubt cast themselves in a good light, but those kinds of articles are better than nothing, *especially* with all the crap that get spouted on the net. I would rather see mostly factual whitepaper marketing than just the usual glamour shots (which I realize AP doesn't bother with either). It's hard to find good information, and I think it's actually helpful when a manufacturer talks about *why* they think they have the best product. If they say they are the best because they have more pistons or shinier colors, well at least you know where they stand. People who lay down facts, discuss weak points, and admit where compromises and value engineering have to take place are generally more trustworthy in general than people who just say their product has the majick sauce...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by AP - Chris_B

Bias is definitely not irrelevant as ABS does not alter the laws of physics. But it is a moving target. What I mean by that is if you dial a brake system in for a completely stock vehicle at stock ride height and stock spring/dampers, you won't have achieved a 100% optimum balance for a lowered car with stiffer springs and dampers. Why? Because now the vehicle's weight doesn't shift forward as much for the same braking effort. Therefore, more braking can be done by the rear tires. Fill the gas tank and put a passenger in the car and now the numbers are different yet again!

A few years back, I was working for an Indycar manufacturer. We would spend countless hours in the wind tunnel working with aerodyanmicists to keep the center of downforce pressure from shifting forward under braking. When the nose goes down and the tail goes up, the venturi effect of the underwing/tunnels is weakened. Losing rear downforce causes premature rear wheel lockup under heavy braking at high speeds. By changing certain aspects of the tunnel design, we were able to significantly reduce this shift. That way, the driver was able to dial the brake bias rearward if the track conditions would allow it. Those cars were unbeatable under braking as was proven at many tracks that season.

The point? Proper brake system balance is a compromise between a vehicle's dynamics, estimations of how the car might be otherwise modified and by how much, available components and a list of other factors. Plus, no one should be required to change their master cylinder (race cars have two brake master cylinders that can be easily swapped for slightly larger or smaller ones, plus a balance bar the driver uses to dynamically fine tune front/rear bias while on the track as the fuel load changes). Consider all this and you may start to understand why this level of detail is not published.

I can offer this: If the brake system bias is wrong for the car and it is pushed hard, everyone the buyer knows will hear about it. The Internet makes sure of that these days. Talking directly to those who have the system on their car and are of sufficient skill level to make a reasonable evaluation will often yield better results than listening to a manufacturer's talking heads or browsing through web sites. These systems are just too expensive to put on the market and risk negative feedback. Sure, some will like one brand over another. But put a few bad kits out there and your name turns to $h!t quickly. AP Racing and Stillen just can't take that chance as they have almost 40 years and 24 years, respectively, of reputation building at stake.

If you are going to be seriously competing with your car, AP Racing makes a variety of professional racing products that are fully adjustable for any track you wish to compete on. Just be sure you bring a lot more than $5k! But for street/track day kits, that amount will get you nicely dialed in for years to come.

And, no I'm not mad. I have 3 kids, so forum discussions are no match for those professional button-pushers! I do take issue, however, when unfounded claims are made out of thin air with no supporting evidence. I have no idea what you do for a living, but if someone claimed without cause that you simply pieced your work together instead of approaching it professionally (especially if peoples' lives depend on your efforts), you might take issue as well.

Cheers,

Chris

I don't know anything about brakes but I'd like to buy you a beer!

[Robispec]

here here!...
and now OT..the new Brakeman Kit for the 370 survived its first track day (Super Lap Battle Finals) and the stopping distances with respect to the other 370's was noticably shorter (its nice when you can see when/where the brake lights come on...). And a 2:00.5 at Buttonwillow with a totally stock engine bay was a FANTASTIC feeling.

[ChrisSlicks]

Originally Posted by imag

My understanding of ABS is that it can bring each wheel to threshold (and over and back) independently, so a full four wheel ABS stop should negate bias, so long as there is enough force on the brakes to get all four wheels to the point of lockup. Am I missing something about how ABS functions?

That is somewhat true of stops 1, 2, and 3, but what about stops 4 and beyond? If the sizing is wrong it will cause one axle to do a higher percentage of the work leading to premature overheating, and fade. Additionally if the sizing is wrong the ABS will kick in on one axle long before it kicks in on another. This will increase the overall stopping distance required slightly.

[Z1Performance]

Originally Posted by imag

Yeah, it's basically between AP and StopTech. The only concern I have about the AP kit is that it was basically pieced together for this application - I haven't seen any testing on the resulting stopping distances. StopTech usually does a pretty good job on their testing before putting out a kit, although I'm not sure they did much in this case.

I also thought it might be good to have a resource thread for people to refer to in the future or on web searches. The weights, for instance, would be worth getting in one defined location. I actually thought you would care more than anyone about a factual comparison.

Bullitt - I totally appreciate the post. I'd personally shy away from that kit because I my guess is that it's more for show than anything (8 piston calipers are, from what I've read, totally unnecessary). That said, I think you're right that the information belongs on this thread.

A big brake kit's job is not to stop the car shorter. If you want to have shorter distances, take weight off the car, or increase the grip of the tire

I've owned BBK's by every worth while manufacturer out there, so I'll offer some constructive advise

1. some kits offer a variety of useful options that you are allowed to select from the get go. Such as various hat mounting methods, various disk sizes, various pad compounds.

2. serviceability - every kit at a certain point will need pads. Every kit will need rotors. Those rotors may (or may not) come with the new hardware you'll need to attach to the hats. This should all be part of your decision process. You don't want to find out that that bling blang bbk you got is impossible to find pads for. Doesn't seem like a big deal now, but it can be in 2-3 years down the road. My current cars have an AP and Endless kit on them. It's nice to know I can call any number of firms and have a plethora of pad compounds to choose from.

3. you're not going to fnd white papers on these products for a variety of reasons.

4. The top tier firms all offer similar quality kits from an engineering standpoint. ALL of them test the kits and produce them specifically for the platform. It's the lesser brands out there that take the one size fits all approach. Stoptech focuses their marketing on this point and it's a very valid point - we're big Stoptech fans here. That being said, several other firms take that same approach to the development side of things as well

[Gary_C]

This is one of the best posts that I have read on this topic and I really appreciate seeing this type of objective reasoning. I am curious though, why you have been soo quick to discredit the Brembo product from your first post, where it did seem that it was originally an option for you?

Rather than simply sharing my personal opinion about the Brembo product, maybe I can answer specific questions based on your actual concerns. I know that Brembo has the largest name in the braking business, and with that comes a varying degree of opinions, but when it comes to the aftermarket/racing products it is definitely one of (if not THE) top choice out there.

Please, share some questions that you think would be helpful to your search, and may also help other people in a similar situation. I'll do my best to share only relevant, factual, and useful information.

Gary - - - -

Originally Posted by imag

My understanding of ABS is that it can bring each wheel to threshold (and over and back) independently, so a full four wheel ABS stop should negate bias, so long as there is enough force on the brakes to get all four wheels to the point of lockup. Am I missing something about how ABS functions?

I actually didn't realize AP was involved in the Stillen kit. My assumption was that they chose calipers and disks that roughly matched the requirements. Apologies to all for that assumption.

I wish we had a set of reliably good drivers testing all the kits, but we just don't right now - we're the guinea pigs for this car. I would generally trust Travis because I've seen from his videos that he can drive, but otherwise everyone wants to say that what they bought is great - and truthfully almost any of these kits should at least be a big improvement over the Akebonos - so it's hard to tell from hearsay at this point. In two years, the best track setups (sways, alignments, pads, etc.) will be common knowledge, but right now, I think it's worth assembling any reporting we can to start that process. That was why I started the thread.

Your point about reputation with regard for a critical component like brakes is well noted, although Brembo has put together some brake kits for OEMs that don't do their reputation any good (I'm sure it's made them money though!). AP seems to show zero sign of going that route, but that's why I have been perhaps overly reluctant to just trust a name. There are also way too many companies in the automotive business (including entire car companies) who tout their high-quality racing experience while the stuff they are selling at the consumer level is completely different and, in some cases, total crap. AP may be great, but you have to admit that we have reason to be wary.

One final note - StopTech may have a lot of marketing, but at least they have put some of that money into educating people about brakes. Sure, it serves their own ends, and they no doubt cast themselves in a good light, but those kinds of articles are better than nothing, *especially* with all the crap that get spouted on the net. I would rather see mostly factual whitepaper marketing than just the usual glamour shots (which I realize AP doesn't bother with either). It's hard to find good information, and I think it's actually helpful when a manufacturer talks about *why* they think they have the best product. If they say they are the best because they have more pistons or shinier colors, well at least you know where they stand. People who lay down facts, discuss weak points, and admit where compromises and value engineering have to take place are generally more trustworthy in general than people who just say their product has the majick sauce...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer.

[vividracing]

This may be a bit long but...

We have a lot of experience with nearly every aftermarket brand, and Brembo is at the top of our list by far..
Our/My opinion is based, but not exclusively, on customer satisfaction, which is key for us.
Everyone wants to save a dime here, a dollar there, but in terms of quality and longevity Brembo saves more than that over time.

The ONLY negative you ever hear about Brembo is in relation to some of their OEM products, and most of the time that is due to a driver who is inexperienced about vehicle setup and not fully aware that there is a limitation to anything OEM. The aftermarket products and BBK's are on another level all together and more similar to the tip tier race systems that you see being used in EVERY top level racing series in the world

We've been one of Brembo's top dealers for many years now and we don't only sell Brembo.
Our experience allows us to select the right product for the right customer, and set it up for the right driving conditions and set the proper expectations for the customer.

If you need any more info regarding the Brembo options for the 370Z fee free to contact us directly.
Besides the full Big Brake Kits, which they DO offer a rear application, you may want to check out their Caliper Upgrade system.
The 6-piston Monoblock calipers Brembo is using for the 370Z applications is the trickiest thing available right now from anybody.
And price wise, they are not that far off from the lesser quality 2pc. 6-piston calipers from other manufacturers.

Just my 2 cents (More like 5 cents since its so long)

[Kyle@STILLEN]

In regards to braking bias and the development we put into our kits I would like bring up a perfect example of the engineering that STILLEN/AP Racing put into the brake systems that we co-develop.

The Ford GT supercar comes from the factory with a Brembo brake system that for 95% of the owner's of that car will more than meet their needs. However, for the other 5% of the owner's of the car they need something better. In the early days of the GT one of the larger brake companies (who will remain unnamed) designed a front and rear big brake kit that in all honesty...was a pile of garbage. It was actually recommended that the kit be removed from the cars because the braking bias was so horribly thrown off. There were numerous cars equipped with this brake kit who would come into a corner and because of the horrible bias issues would spin off the race track.

In 2006 STILLEN produced a front brake kit for the GT that was slightly larger than stock and offered a 6 piston caliper, replacing the factory 4 piston. Then in 2008 (after MUCH testing and engineering) we released the rear brake kit to complete the package. The rear rotor was significantly larger and came with a 6 piston caliper. Because we had some concerns about the potential for altering the brake bias we played with quite a few things including piston sizes inside the caliper, types of rotors, and more. Working very closely with AP Racing and taking from the years and years of Sports car racing, championship winning experience of Steve Millen, we now have a brake system which is used by all of the serious Ford GT track guys. The final outcome was kind of odd. We found that for racing purposes, the best setup was to go with cross-drilled slotted front rotors and slotted only rear rotors, thus decreasing some of the initial bite of the rear rotors and therefore offsetting the bias issues. For the street, we recommend cross-drilled slotted fronts and matching cross-drilled slotted rears just for aesthetics.

Also, before releasing this brake kit for public use, Steve Millen and myself put it to the ultimate test on the 2008 Targa New Zealand Rally. We were not willing to sell this kit to anyone without testing it thoroughly for ourselves.

You can rest assured that we test and test and test all of our brake kits and all of our other products before they are released to the public.

[AP - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by imag

My understanding of ABS is that it can bring each wheel to threshold (and over and back) independently, so a full four wheel ABS stop should negate bias, so long as there is enough force on the brakes to get all four wheels to the point of lockup. Am I missing something about how ABS functions?

ABS does essentially function that way, but it cannot override physics. A modern 4-channel ABS computer can REDUCE brake line pressure for any corner that is starting to lock up. It does not INCREASE pressure for the corners that still have unused grip to offer. So, yes, it offers stability (which is safer), but doesn't necessarily shorten stopping distances. A properly balanced brake system (both mechanically and thermally) is required, with ABS being an added bonus for those drivers who would benefit from it.

Originally Posted by imag

I wish we had a set of reliably good drivers testing all the kits, but we just don't right now - we're the guinea pigs for this car.

Actually, guys like Steve Millen are the guinea pigs. Reputable companies do their own testing and evaluation before the customer ever hears of a newly released product -- that is, if they plan on staying around for a while. That doesn't make any company perfect or void of errors, but it would be ridiculous for companies that have been around as long as Stillen, AP Racing, etc., to risk their reputation on anything less. As far as the Nissan/Infiniti platform are concerned, no one has more experience with these cars than Stillen/AP Racing -- period.

Last week at SEMA, I walked past maybe 15 or more new brake system offerings from Asia/India/Viet Nam/wherever. None of them had the history or reputation that made me even want to stop and ask a few questions. I've seen such systems with other logos (almost anyone can have private-label brakes made these days) fail miserably at the track or in a canyon. I know of quite a few cars that have been totaled as a result. Let the buyer beware.

Originally Posted by imag

One final note - StopTech may have a lot of marketing, but at least they have put some of that money into educating people about brakes. Sure, it serves their own ends, and they no doubt cast themselves in a good light, but those kinds of articles are better than nothing, *especially* with all the crap that get spouted on the net. I would rather see mostly factual whitepaper marketing than just the usual glamour shots (which I realize AP doesn't bother with either). It's hard to find good information, and I think it's actually helpful when a manufacturer talks about *why* they think they have the best product. If they say they are the best because they have more pistons or shinier colors, well at least you know where they stand. People who lay down facts, discuss weak points, and admit where compromises and value engineering have to take place are generally more trustworthy in general than people who just say their product has the majick sauce...

The boys and girls over at S-T have done a solid job in marketing their product and educating their customer -- and kudos to them for it. The bigger companies could do a better job than has been done, that's for sure! I have several ideas that I hope to get time to put in place over the winter. However, a "white paper" doesn't help me much when approaching Turn 2 at Laguna Seca a bit too hot...

Take a good look at the customer list that Josh posted up. Those guys have the budget and engineering resources to make any brake supplier shake in their boots. Each and every application is treated like a make-or-break deal for the company. Also take a look at the new Arash AF-10 that was just announced: Arash plans Veyron beater - Autocar.co.uk OK, it's a long way from a Nissan 370Z, but look at what the makers of this $535,000, 250+mph supercar turned to for brakes. Their customers are not guinea pigs.

Chris