BBK Comparison thread: Brembo vs. StopTech vs. AP Racing

[Mike]

I suppose that could be part of the problem

[bullitt5897]

I figured it was... cause I was doing hard braking and didnt get near as many problems but then again... brake pad combo really changes the game! Glad your liking the brembos! are you going to the Z/G meet? I think its next week...

[Mike]

Originally Posted by bullitt5897

I figured it was... cause I was doing hard braking and didnt get near as many problems but then again... brake pad combo really changes the game! Glad your liking the brembos! are you going to the Z/G meet? I think its next week...

If I don't get called out to fly, I should be there. They haven't called me in over 2 months, so hopefully I'll be ok.

[SOLISIMO]

Im sorry but Ive heard nothing but good things about AP brakes, and more than the others too

[Josh@STILLEN]

Another little tidbit on AP Racing.. excluding the full racing stuff..

The partial list of OE road car manufacturers supplied by AP Racing (does not include racing clients):

Alfa Romeo
Ascari
Aston Martin
Bugatti
Caparo
Caterham
Farbio
GTA
Gumpert
Holden HSV
Koenigsegg
Lotus
Marcos
McLaren
MG
Morgan
Noble
Pagani
Rossion
Seat
Spyker
Tesla
Tramontana
TVR
Ultima
Zolfe


Top Gear’s top lap time test:

Gumpert Apollo 1.17.1 (AP Racing)
Ascari A10 1.17.3 (AP Racing)
Koenigsegg CCX (with Top Gear spoiler) 1.17.6 (AP Racing & Brembo components)
Pagani Zonda F Roadster 1.17.8 (AP Racing)
Caterham R500 1.17.9 (AP Racing)
Bugatti Veyron 1.18.3 (AP Racing)
Pagani Zonda F 1.18.4 (AP Racing)
Maserati MC12 1.18.9 (Ferrari/Brembo)
Ferrari Enzo 1.19.0 (Ferrari/Brembo)
Ariel Atom 1.19.5 (Alcon)
Lamborghini LP560 1.19.5 (Brembo)
Ferrari Scuderia 1.19.7 (Ferrari/Brembo)
Nissan GT-R (R35) 1.19.7 (Brembo)
Lamborghini LP640 1.19.8 (Brembo)
Porsche Carerra GT 1.19.8 (Brembo)
Koenigsegg CCX 1.20.4 (AP Racing & Brembo)
Ascari KZ1 1.20.7 (AP Racing)
Mercedes McLaren SLR 1.20.9 (AP Racing)
Ferrari 599GTB 1.21.2 (Ferrari/Brembo)
Ford GT 1.21.9 (Brembo)
Ferrari 360 CS 1.22.3 (Ferrari/Brembo)
Porsche GT3 RS 1.22.3 (Brembo)
Corvette Z06 1.22.4 (PBR)
Noble M15 1.22.5 (AP Racing)
Murcielago 1.23.7 (Brembo)
Zonda 1.23.8 (AP Racing)
Koenigsegg 1.23.9 (AP Racing & Brembo)
Aston Martin DBS 1.23.93 (Brembo)
Veritas RS III 1.24.2
Prodrive P2 1.24.3
Audi R8 1.24.4 (Brembo)
TVR Sagaris 1.24.6 (AP Racing)
Mitsubishi Evo FQ400 1.24.8 (Brembo)
TVR Tuscan 1.24.8 (AP Racing)
Noble M400 1.25.0 (AP Racing)
Lotus Exige S 1.25.1 (AP Racing front / Brembo & AP Racing rear)
BMW M3 Saloon 1.25.3 (Ate)
Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder 1.25.7 (Brembo)
Lamborghini Gallardo 1.25.8 (Brembo)
BMW Z4 M 1.26.0 (Ate)
Porsche Cayman 1.26.2 (Brembo)
Porsche 911 Carrera 2S 1.26.2 (Brembo)
Brabus Biturbo Roadster 1.26.2 (Brembo)
Lotus Exige 1.26.4 (AP Racing front / Brembo & AP Racing rear)
Chevrolet Corvette 1.26.8 (PBR)
Lexus IS-F 1.26.8 (Brembo)
Mercedes CLS 55 AMG 1.26.9 (Brembo or Ate, depending on year)
Aston Martin Vanquish S 1.27.1 (AP Racing)
Aston Martin DB9 1.27.1 (Brembo)
Tesla Roadster 1.27.2 (AP Racing front / Brembo & AP Racing rear)
Porsche 911 GT3 1.27.2 (Brembo)
TVR 350C 1.27.5 (AP Racing)
BMW M3 CSL 1.28.0 (Ate)
Roush Mustang 1.28.0 (StopTech or PFC)
Marcos TSO GT2 1.28.2 (AP Racing)
Subaru WRX Sti 1.28.2 (Brembo)
Mitsubishi Evo X 1.28.22 (Brembo)
Dodge Viper SRT-10 1.28.5 (Brembo)
MG SV 1.28.6 (AP Racing)
Porsche 911 Carrera S 1.28.9 (Brembo)
Mitsubishi Evo VIII 1.28.9 (Brembo)
BMW Alpina Z8 1.29.0 (Ate)
Mercedes CL65 1.29.0 (Ate)
VW Golf W12 1.29.6 (Brembo - RS4 front / Gallardo rear)
Alfa 3.7 GTA Autodelta 1.30.0 (AP Racing)
Ford Shelby GT500 1.30.0 (Brembo front / PBR rear)

[ResIpsa]

You forgot

Nissan 370Z 1.27.5 (Akebono)


But no disrespect to AP, those are specialized parts for discerning drivers.

[Mike]

Actually, AP was my first choice, but the template I downloaded from Stillen showed they wouldn't fit my wheels. The brembo kit had no template, so it was a blind guess, and I had to grind on them anyways, but I made them fit. I have nothing but the utmost respect for APR

[imag]

My understanding of ABS is that it can bring each wheel to threshold (and over and back) independently, so a full four wheel ABS stop should negate bias, so long as there is enough force on the brakes to get all four wheels to the point of lockup. Am I missing something about how ABS functions?

I actually didn't realize AP was involved in the Stillen kit. My assumption was that they chose calipers and disks that roughly matched the requirements. Apologies to all for that assumption.

I wish we had a set of reliably good drivers testing all the kits, but we just don't right now - we're the guinea pigs for this car. I would generally trust Travis because I've seen from his videos that he can drive, but otherwise everyone wants to say that what they bought is great - and truthfully almost any of these kits should at least be a big improvement over the Akebonos - so it's hard to tell from hearsay at this point. In two years, the best track setups (sways, alignments, pads, etc.) will be common knowledge, but right now, I think it's worth assembling any reporting we can to start that process. That was why I started the thread.

Your point about reputation with regard for a critical component like brakes is well noted, although Brembo has put together some brake kits for OEMs that don't do their reputation any good (I'm sure it's made them money though!). AP seems to show zero sign of going that route, but that's why I have been perhaps overly reluctant to just trust a name. There are also way too many companies in the automotive business (including entire car companies) who tout their high-quality racing experience while the stuff they are selling at the consumer level is completely different and, in some cases, total crap. AP may be great, but you have to admit that we have reason to be wary.

One final note - StopTech may have a lot of marketing, but at least they have put some of that money into educating people about brakes. Sure, it serves their own ends, and they no doubt cast themselves in a good light, but those kinds of articles are better than nothing, *especially* with all the crap that get spouted on the net. I would rather see mostly factual whitepaper marketing than just the usual glamour shots (which I realize AP doesn't bother with either). It's hard to find good information, and I think it's actually helpful when a manufacturer talks about *why* they think they have the best product. If they say they are the best because they have more pistons or shinier colors, well at least you know where they stand. People who lay down facts, discuss weak points, and admit where compromises and value engineering have to take place are generally more trustworthy in general than people who just say their product has the majick sauce...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer.

[ChrisSlicks]

Originally Posted by imag

My understanding of ABS is that it can bring each wheel to threshold (and over and back) independently, so a full four wheel ABS stop should negate bias, so long as there is enough force on the brakes to get all four wheels to the point of lockup. Am I missing something about how ABS functions?

That is somewhat true of stops 1, 2, and 3, but what about stops 4 and beyond? If the sizing is wrong it will cause one axle to do a higher percentage of the work leading to premature overheating, and fade. Additionally if the sizing is wrong the ABS will kick in on one axle long before it kicks in on another. This will increase the overall stopping distance required slightly.

[Gary_C]

This is one of the best posts that I have read on this topic and I really appreciate seeing this type of objective reasoning. I am curious though, why you have been soo quick to discredit the Brembo product from your first post, where it did seem that it was originally an option for you?

Rather than simply sharing my personal opinion about the Brembo product, maybe I can answer specific questions based on your actual concerns. I know that Brembo has the largest name in the braking business, and with that comes a varying degree of opinions, but when it comes to the aftermarket/racing products it is definitely one of (if not THE) top choice out there.

Please, share some questions that you think would be helpful to your search, and may also help other people in a similar situation. I'll do my best to share only relevant, factual, and useful information.

Gary - - - -

Originally Posted by imag

My understanding of ABS is that it can bring each wheel to threshold (and over and back) independently, so a full four wheel ABS stop should negate bias, so long as there is enough force on the brakes to get all four wheels to the point of lockup. Am I missing something about how ABS functions?

I actually didn't realize AP was involved in the Stillen kit. My assumption was that they chose calipers and disks that roughly matched the requirements. Apologies to all for that assumption.

I wish we had a set of reliably good drivers testing all the kits, but we just don't right now - we're the guinea pigs for this car. I would generally trust Travis because I've seen from his videos that he can drive, but otherwise everyone wants to say that what they bought is great - and truthfully almost any of these kits should at least be a big improvement over the Akebonos - so it's hard to tell from hearsay at this point. In two years, the best track setups (sways, alignments, pads, etc.) will be common knowledge, but right now, I think it's worth assembling any reporting we can to start that process. That was why I started the thread.

Your point about reputation with regard for a critical component like brakes is well noted, although Brembo has put together some brake kits for OEMs that don't do their reputation any good (I'm sure it's made them money though!). AP seems to show zero sign of going that route, but that's why I have been perhaps overly reluctant to just trust a name. There are also way too many companies in the automotive business (including entire car companies) who tout their high-quality racing experience while the stuff they are selling at the consumer level is completely different and, in some cases, total crap. AP may be great, but you have to admit that we have reason to be wary.

One final note - StopTech may have a lot of marketing, but at least they have put some of that money into educating people about brakes. Sure, it serves their own ends, and they no doubt cast themselves in a good light, but those kinds of articles are better than nothing, *especially* with all the crap that get spouted on the net. I would rather see mostly factual whitepaper marketing than just the usual glamour shots (which I realize AP doesn't bother with either). It's hard to find good information, and I think it's actually helpful when a manufacturer talks about *why* they think they have the best product. If they say they are the best because they have more pistons or shinier colors, well at least you know where they stand. People who lay down facts, discuss weak points, and admit where compromises and value engineering have to take place are generally more trustworthy in general than people who just say their product has the majick sauce...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer.

[Kyle@STILLEN]

In regards to braking bias and the development we put into our kits I would like bring up a perfect example of the engineering that STILLEN/AP Racing put into the brake systems that we co-develop.

The Ford GT supercar comes from the factory with a Brembo brake system that for 95% of the owner's of that car will more than meet their needs. However, for the other 5% of the owner's of the car they need something better. In the early days of the GT one of the larger brake companies (who will remain unnamed) designed a front and rear big brake kit that in all honesty...was a pile of garbage. It was actually recommended that the kit be removed from the cars because the braking bias was so horribly thrown off. There were numerous cars equipped with this brake kit who would come into a corner and because of the horrible bias issues would spin off the race track.

In 2006 STILLEN produced a front brake kit for the GT that was slightly larger than stock and offered a 6 piston caliper, replacing the factory 4 piston. Then in 2008 (after MUCH testing and engineering) we released the rear brake kit to complete the package. The rear rotor was significantly larger and came with a 6 piston caliper. Because we had some concerns about the potential for altering the brake bias we played with quite a few things including piston sizes inside the caliper, types of rotors, and more. Working very closely with AP Racing and taking from the years and years of Sports car racing, championship winning experience of Steve Millen, we now have a brake system which is used by all of the serious Ford GT track guys. The final outcome was kind of odd. We found that for racing purposes, the best setup was to go with cross-drilled slotted front rotors and slotted only rear rotors, thus decreasing some of the initial bite of the rear rotors and therefore offsetting the bias issues. For the street, we recommend cross-drilled slotted fronts and matching cross-drilled slotted rears just for aesthetics.

Also, before releasing this brake kit for public use, Steve Millen and myself put it to the ultimate test on the 2008 Targa New Zealand Rally. We were not willing to sell this kit to anyone without testing it thoroughly for ourselves.

You can rest assured that we test and test and test all of our brake kits and all of our other products before they are released to the public.

[imag]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

This is one of the best posts that I have read on this topic and I really appreciate seeing this type of objective reasoning. I am curious though, why you have been soo quick to discredit the Brembo product from your first post, where it did seem that it was originally an option for you?

Rather than simply sharing my personal opinion about the Brembo product, maybe I can answer specific questions based on your actual concerns. I know that Brembo has the largest name in the braking business, and with that comes a varying degree of opinions, but when it comes to the aftermarket/racing products it is definitely one of (if not THE) top choice out there.

Please, share some questions that you think would be helpful to your search, and may also help other people in a similar situation. I'll do my best to share only relevant, factual, and useful information.

Gary - - - -

Thanks all for the posts. I'm an information junkie, so the more I have, the better I feel about what I end up getting.

To answer your questions, Gary, on my view of Brembo:

1. I'm a bit worried about only a front caliper change. On one hand, my concern is that the stock rear caliper/rotor combination has proven not to be up to our needs. On the other hand, I'd obviously be glad to save the money, and I do realize that the addition of the bigger front brake *should* reduce the load on the rears. I'm not sure where to end up in this whole mix.

2. The OEM brake business definitely devalued the brand in my eyes. It was no doubt a good business decision, and I hear your point that the OEM side made no difference to the aftermarket BBKs, but putting out less-than-stellar OEM brakes definitely tarnished Brembo's image. Maybe that's irrelevant, but it's what prompted my comments. In a world where we are being asked to rely on reputations, things like that matter.

- -

Basically everyone is asking us to trust them. That's fine, but it's different than most industries, where I can really research the products I want to buy. I'm not used to it.

One metric I referred to before that I would like to consider is weight. It obviously cannot be looked at in a vacuum, but it is a relevant data point, as we all realize the benefit of unsprung weight reduction. If each of the main BBKs are probably going to be fade-free for 30 minute sessions, lighter is better. I don't know if anyone has data on caliper/rotor weight for each of the BBKs, but it would be nice to have. Yes, I realize that there are tradeoffs with weight - lighter weight means lower thermal mass, potentially smaller rotors, etc.. My guess is that the AP system wins there.

- -

In general, I admit I was pretty naive when I got the car. I figured the OEM brakes, with their 14" rotors and fixed calipers, would be able to handle moderate track use with a rotor and pad upgrade. Now I'm looking at spending $5K on a system I didn't really want in the first place, so I'm being as anal as possible in an attempt to learn. I now realize most any car will need a BBK for track use, but I guess I just thought that was only true for racing. Right now, I'm having to tiptoe around the brake limits pretty carefully or switch to pads for track days* which is a drag, as I will probably still have problems. If I can get away with a new front caliper, then that's great, but what happens when I get a bit faster and now have to go through all this again...

Anyway, thanks again for all the thoughts. I hope there are forum lurkers that this conversation has also helped in one way or another...

*Yes, I realize that track use may mean switching pads. My goal was to have a car I could drive to the track, run, and drive home without swapping parts or alignment. I'm willing to make compromises like:

- Living with an alignment that causes higher tire wear on the street. I figure the tires are going to get worn out on track anyway. I'll live with the cost of getting tires every 3-6 months to avoid tinkering at the track.
- Using street tires on track. I figure I'm not good enough to need track tires at this point anyway, and swapping wheels just isn't in my goal right now.

I am hoping I can get a brake system where I can drive at 9/10ths with streetable (not street, but not pure race) pads. I'm still in the beginner group, so I have a feeling I'm not fast enough for that to be an issue with a BBK. Feel free to weigh in on whether or not I'm delusional...

[AP - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by imag

I figured the OEM brakes, with their 14" rotors and fixed calipers, would be able to handle moderate track use with a rotor and pad upgrade. Now I'm looking at spending $5K on a system I didn't really want in the first place, so I'm being as anal as possible in an attempt to learn. I now realize most any car will need a BBK for track use, but I guess I just thought that was only true for racing.

Yes, I hear this a lot. Unfortunately, the engineers don't win all the battles. Sometimes the accountants (most of the time, actually) get the last word. You should talk to someone with a Corvette C6 Z06 and see what they think of spending around $70k and getting worse brakes than you have! GM had a better option on the table, but the budget simply didn't allow for it. Some have noticed that the ZR-1 uses entirely different brakes. By the way, this is the #1 reason I have never wanted to work for an OEM road car manufacturer. That and the fact that Michigan has very cold winters and all the tracks close down until spring.

Originally Posted by imag

*Yes, I realize that track use may mean switching pads. My goal was to have a car I could drive to the track, run, and drive home without swapping parts or alignment...
I am hoping I can get a brake system where I can drive at 9/10ths with streetable (not street, but not pure race) pads. I'm still in the beginner group, so I have a feeling I'm not fast enough for that to be an issue with a BBK. Feel free to weigh in on whether or not I'm delusional...

This is exactly what the AP Racing road car brake systems were designed and developed to do. It is also why the pads chosen are good to over 1300°F. If you are one of the few pushing past that temp limit, the only options left are full-on race pads. Of course with an AP BBK, you will have lots of options to choose from.

Chris

[imag]

Originally Posted by AP - Chris_B

Yes, I hear this a lot. Unfortunately, the engineers don't win all the battles. Sometimes the accountants (most of the time, actually) get the last word. You should talk to someone with a Corvette C6 Z06 and see what they think of spending around $70k and getting worse brakes than you have! GM had a better option on the table, but the budget simply didn't allow for it. Some have noticed that the ZR-1 uses entirely different brakes. By the way, this is the #1 reason I have never wanted to work for an OEM road car manufacturer. That and the fact that Michigan has very cold winters and all the tracks close down until spring.


This is exactly what the AP Racing road car brake systems were designed and developed to do. It is also why the pads chosen are good to over 1300°F. If you are one of the few pushing past that temp limit, the only options left are full-on race pads. Of course with an AP BBK, you will have lots of options to choose from.

Chris

Exactly - I am stunned that the Z06 brakes have issues on track. I realize that's partly a result of all that horsepower, but still, I would indeed be pissed if I had to retrofit brakes for a car that was sold as a track monster.

I do feel like part of the issue is all the weight on cars. I was thinking the other day about how the only ~2800 lb sports car left is the Cayman/Boxster, then the Miata and the Exige below 2500. In combination with the horsepower wars of the last 10 years, we've got way more energy to manage than before. It sounds like the next-gen RX7 and Miata will continue the light approach, which is good, because to my mind, 3300 lbs. is just too much for a sports car. Mazda also seems to give decent priority to trackworthiness because they understand their customers; it will be interesting to see where they make the price/performance stopper decision. Mazda does have the odd advantage of low horsepower...

It's good to hear that you feel AP's kit is suited to a dual use scenario on the Z. I was worried that the response would just be, "If you want to track your car with any kind of seriousness, you have to get used to switching pads." The whole payoff for me of a BBK is not having to worry about the brakes any more, other than keeping pads and rotors current. I don't mind putting up with a small amount of noise and any amount of dust; I just don't want to have to bring jacks to the track (yet). Eventually all the track regulars seem to drop down the rabbit hole, which leads ultimately to a trailered car, but I'm trying to stay out of that one as long as possible ;-)

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by AP - Chris_B

Yes, I hear this a lot. Unfortunately, the engineers don't win all the battles. Sometimes the accountants (most of the time, actually) get the last word. You should talk to someone with a Corvette C6 Z06 and see what they think of spending around $70k and getting worse brakes than you have! GM had a better option on the table, but the budget simply didn't allow for it. Some have noticed that the ZR-1 uses entirely different brakes. By the way, this is the #1 reason I have never wanted to work for an OEM road car manufacturer. That and the fact that Michigan has very cold winters and all the tracks close down until spring.

Tell me about it!

Brembo spent a lot of money on proposed development for the C6 ZO6 only to have it left behind in favor for a more price conscious system to meet the budget set for the final price point of that vehicle. The good news is that this development is what has allowed us to be first to market with more than 6 different brake options for the ZO6.

We were though, able to nail the contract for the ZR1 with out CCM technology.

Chris,
Do you know if AP tried to go after that OEM account as well?