oil starvation problem?

martin82 · 03-15-2014, 06:23 PM

Forgot to mention accusump is also on my list to do eventually

Mike · 03-15-2014, 08:36 PM

I've got 22500 miles on my 09. all but 4000 of that is track. I have a 34row cooler and a CSF Radiator and the engine is rock solid. Also, I do 90% of my upshifting at 78-8200 rpm. Maybe I'm just waiting/asking for an engine failure, but everything has been fine for the last 4 years.

cv129 · 03-16-2014, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martin82

I got roughly total of 45 track days combined with tune attacks and hpde last two years w 35k miles. Ran stock radiator and 34 row setrab for that long. 34 row oil cooler and stock rad aren't to the task for cooling. Now finishing my SC build went all out on cooling. 1 34 row on passenger side and 1 25 row plus spal fan on drivers side (might upgrade later to a 34 if needed) then got the gtm oil baffled pan, 70mm radiator and high output spal fans (beast). I'm at over 10 quarts of oil

Curious: with the longer oil travel (additional oil cooler and lines), do you need a stronger oil pump to compensate for potential loss of oil pressure, or stock pump is up to the task? I won't ever need this, just want to know if this is a concern at all.

martin82 · 03-16-2014, 12:47 PM

Only way to know is oil pressure on track but don't think it will be a problem.

Mike · 03-16-2014, 07:11 PM

once the engine is started and the normal oil pressure is built up, the distance of travel is pretty much irrelevant. Hydraulic pressure is a constant across an entire system.

cv129 · 03-16-2014, 07:19 PM

Cool, thanks

Megan370z · 03-16-2014, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

once the engine is started and the normal oil pressure is built up, the distance of travel is pretty much irrelevant. Hydraulic pressure is a constant across an entire system.

I hate doing this and since my hydraulic course was taken years ago, I will try to make it short.

there is in fact an hydraulic pressure loss/gain in any hydraulic system
the pump & regulator/restrictor has to work together to maintain a certain level of pressure it was set. If you add an oil cooler for example you are adding restriction to the system which will raise the pressure and other adverse effect.

The pump isn't making the pressure but pumping the oil, pressure is made by the effect of restriction.
so to answer the guy asking if the stock oil pump is enough,,, I would say yes but the restrictor could potentially be adjusted if it was possible.

one last thing; this is why there was more pressure showing on the pressure gauge on my old 350z after adding an oil cooler higher than it use to. but its not enough to greatly affect the engine.

wstar · 03-16-2014, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cv129

Curious: with the longer oil travel (additional oil cooler and lines), do you need a stronger oil pump to compensate for potential loss of oil pressure, or stock pump is up to the task? I won't ever need this, just want to know if this is a concern at all.

My gut feeling (and I have no idea the relative restriction change from either one) was to switch to a larger oil filter to reduce some restriction to offset the cooler a bit (e.g. K&N HP-1010).

Mike · 03-17-2014, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megan370z

I hate doing this and since my hydraulic course was taken years ago, I will try to make it short.

there is in fact an hydraulic pressure loss/gain in any hydraulic system
the pump & regulator/restrictor has to work together to maintain a certain level of pressure it was set. If you add an oil cooler for example you are adding restriction to the system which will raise the pressure and other adverse effect.

The pump isn't making the pressure but pumping the oil, pressure is made by the effect of restriction.
so to answer the guy asking if the stock oil pump is enough,,, I would say yes but the restrictor could potentially be adjusted if it was possible.

one last thing; this is why there was more pressure showing on the pressure gauge on my old 350z after adding an oil cooler higher than it use to. but its not enough to greatly affect the engine.

probably more right than I, its probably been longer since my courses, but it should be a negligible amount.

DR_ · 03-17-2014, 11:18 AM

I think part of the trick in sizing an oil cooler setup is to get the pressure to behave like stock. If you see a PSI increase after installing an oil cooler you know it is restricting and if you see a PSI decrease you know it is oversized.
If you have the ability to increase PSI, like shimming the oil pump, you can go oversized and still get back to the stock PSI.

wstar · 03-17-2014, 11:27 AM

^ Would it even be possible for the mere installation of an oil cooler to actually drop the PSI? I'd think (well, assuming we're talking equal oil temps in both cases) that it can't have negative restriction and thus can't do that, right? Or do you mean with the new difference in temperatures taken into account as well?

EDIT: hmm, even then, colder oil would be higher PSI, not lower. What am I missing here?

jrb55gh · 06-22-2014, 11:21 PM

Hi rpm oil starvation with stock tires?

I have read this entire, very informative thread. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I don’t plan to track my stock 370z 7AT, but members here with track experience certainly have knowledge to share that could help save my engine.

There are many opportunities to corner at the traction limit of the stock street tires on the twisty roads of East Texas. Using the paddle shifters makes it easy to keep the rpm in the meat of the power band, 4500-7000. Are the stock oil pan and oil pickup sufficient to keep oil flowing without oil starvation under these conditions? If not, would an oil pan spacer be enough to keep oil covering the pickup?

jrb55gh · 02-14-2015, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megan370z

Why I got oil starvation ?
99% chance is from the big spin off on track doing a *tank slapper* then doing a 360.
because everything when started from there

I went back into the pit, everything seemed fine and I went back on the track just to leave it 1-2 laps after with a 280F+ and clicking noise in the head

at first it wasn't too bad I went back home then 200kms later the engine broke down and oil pump exploded due to the garbage broken parts from the VVEL (discovered during the engine inspection)

also there was the exhaust gear cam bolt that was relatively quite loose on the same side, I remember I could have un-tighten it by hand mostly... (10-15ft/pds max!!)

so yeah I made a custom inside baffle and added an Accusump !!

Accusump is a must !!!! well, a minimum I recommend now.

I am assuming that you kept the rpm up near 8000 during the tank slapper and spin. Is that true?

Megan370z · 02-16-2015, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrb55gh

I am assuming that you kept the rpm up near 8000 during the tank slapper and spin. Is that true?

im sure I did mentionned somewhere about this but yes the engine was still relatively high RPM during that small amount of time the engine was in the oposite direction and the probable event is that most of the oil was pushed toward the back of the engine.

03-15-2014, 06:23 PM	#61 (permalink)
martin82 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: los angeles Posts: 2,636 Drives: 12 Nissan 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 19	Forgot to mention accusump is also on my list to do eventually GSS138 likes this.

03-15-2014, 08:36 PM	#62 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2185	I've got 22500 miles on my 09. all but 4000 of that is track. I have a 34row cooler and a CSF Radiator and the engine is rock solid. Also, I do 90% of my upshifting at 78-8200 rpm. Maybe I'm just waiting/asking for an engine failure, but everything has been fine for the last 4 years. ENT-Z, Megan370z and KapitalZ like this. __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

03-16-2014, 07:11 PM	#65 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2185	once the engine is started and the normal oil pressure is built up, the distance of travel is pretty much irrelevant. Hydraulic pressure is a constant across an entire system. synolimit and KapitalZ like this. __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

03-16-2014, 07:19 PM	#66 (permalink)
cv129 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,192 Drives: 09 Nismo, 16 Nismo Rep Power: 159827	Cool, thanks __________________ Setrab \| RE-71 \| SPL \| JRZ \| Nismo \| ARK \| Whiteline \| RacingBrake \| CJM Oil Pan \| Ti shield

03-17-2014, 11:27 AM	#71 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	^ Would it even be possible for the mere installation of an oil cooler to actually drop the PSI? I'd think (well, assuming we're talking equal oil temps in both cases) that it can't have negative restriction and thus can't do that, right? Or do you mean with the new difference in temperatures taken into account as well? EDIT: hmm, even then, colder oil would be higher PSI, not lower. What am I missing here? __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details Last edited by wstar; 03-17-2014 at 11:30 AM.

03-16-2014, 12:47 PM	#64 (permalink)
martin82 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: los angeles Posts: 2,636 Drives: 12 Nissan 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 19	Only way to know is oil pressure on track but don't think it will be a problem.

03-17-2014, 11:18 AM	#70 (permalink)
DR_ Track Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Dallas Posts: 981 Drives: Touring/Sport M6 PG Rep Power: 16	I think part of the trick in sizing an oil cooler setup is to get the pressure to behave like stock. If you see a PSI increase after installing an oil cooler you know it is restricting and if you see a PSI decrease you know it is oversized. If you have the ability to increase PSI, like shimming the oil pump, you can go oversized and still get back to the stock PSI.

06-22-2014, 11:21 PM	#72 (permalink)
jrb55gh Base Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: DFW Texas Posts: 149 Drives: '13 370z black 7AT Rep Power: 12	Hi rpm oil starvation with stock tires? I have read this entire, very informative thread. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I don’t plan to track my stock 370z 7AT, but members here with track experience certainly have knowledge to share that could help save my engine. There are many opportunities to corner at the traction limit of the stock street tires on the twisty roads of East Texas. Using the paddle shifters makes it easy to keep the rpm in the meat of the power band, 4500-7000. Are the stock oil pan and oil pickup sufficient to keep oil flowing without oil starvation under these conditions? If not, would an oil pan spacer be enough to keep oil covering the pickup?

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