Rollbar / seats / harness stuff, yet again...

ryan0 · 02-15-2012, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edconline

Obviously the decision to use a harness without a roll bar is going to come down to what each person is comfortable with (and regulations of the tracks you are at) but for me, the harness bar is a more than acceptable alternative to a roll bar/full cage.

that is the only reason i posted in this thread... the almost elitist version of 'you're an idiot if you use a harness with out a full cage' has magically been accepted as law, and is now the first response you hear when the question is asked.

lots of different factors need to be weighed.. if you're in a cobra or miata with no hoop, a big tall seat with 6 pts is probably a bad idea. if you're in a mini-van with huge head room and proven roll over protection you'd be stupid not to wear a harness.

in a perfect world, everyone would have full cages and NASCAR bars... but thats not the case... and i don't feel that the only opinion given should be 'full race or OEM, with nothing in between'.

ryan0 · 02-15-2012, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

The B-pillar's aren't perfect.

We aren't talking perfect. we are talking compromise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

re: the windshield frame:

Your pic about this doesn't show a head anywhere near the frame of the windshield. The head has arced down to where the steering wheel / dashboard is. I think hitting your head on the windshield frame itself would suck, but again I still have airbags, and I don't think the arc of my body straining against any belt system will let me head go simultaneously that far high and forward.

you do realize that is more of a sedan.. i can almost press my forehead on my Z windshield frame even while 50 Gs aren't pulling my head forward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Man, this forum sucks at lengthy nested quoting I guess. The point of wanting harnesses at this stage was yes, to plant me in the seat better so my chest isn't moving forward so much on braking, or sliding around on corners. My *** is planted reasonably-well by the aftermarket seat bolsters, but that doesn't do much up top. It's just a night and day difference how connected I feel in the passenger seat of a harnessed car versus the driver's seat of mine.

this is where people get in to trouble putting speed before safety... yeah it sucks to slide around in the seat... i have put many a pressure dent in speaker grills from my knees crushing them to brace myself.. but i figure that maybe its the car gods way of telling us thats about as fast as you should go with out a cage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

I agree that in a non-rollover track accident, I'd be better off with a harness bar, harness, helmet, and HANS than I would be with stock belts and just a helmet. And if I avoid the harnesses on the street (which I would), there'd be no compromise there as well.

So what you are saying is that in the case of (probably) 99% of all track incidents, you would be better off with a harness and HANS than you would be with stock belts... but in order to prepare for the 1% (and even smaller fraction of that where severe neck injury occurs) you would rather use a seat belt solution that allows your body to flop around in the car bouncing off anything hard, so that your head is free to not be crushed by the roof in case (again an even smaller fraction) it completely pancakes.

wstar · 02-15-2012, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan0

So what you are saying is that in the case of (probably) 99% of all track incidents, you would be better off with a harness and HANS than you would be with stock belts... but in order to prepare for the 1% (and even smaller fraction of that where severe neck injury occurs) you would rather use a seat belt solution that allows your body to flop around in the car bouncing off anything hard, so that your head is free to not be crushed by the roof in case (again an even smaller fraction) it completely pancakes.

I think your statistical argument makes perfect sense (well, other than it's probably not quite 99%-vs-1%) if we were talking about some efficiency thing, or odds of losing a chunk of money, or something of that nature. But you're also talking about increased safety in a scenario that's normally going to be non-lethal in the first place, versus decreasing the safety of a rollover to, IMHO, more likely to be lethal. It's hard to play odds against increased lethality because you don't recover from that

ryan0 · 02-15-2012, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

I think your statistical argument makes perfect sense

that was my whole point... i just don't think that the 'possible' safety advantages of good belts for track day guys should be completely ruled out, just because you have no cage... everyone should listen to us idiots on the internet with a grain of salt and make their own decisions.

PS. I roll in a full SCCA/NASA stamped 1.75 x.12 DOM 6-pt cage with 3 bar NASCAR door bars, FIA seat, Teamtech Ram-pac 6-pts and HANS.

PPS. Will I do some laps a big willow in the Z roadster just to see how it does and embarrass clint?... most likely.

wstar · 02-15-2012, 02:07 PM

Backtracking a bit, does anyone have any better info on this aspect:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

It would be more-ideal if my seats had anti-sub holes and I could install a 6-point, but I think the Scroth ASM thing seems like a pretty decent solution to that problem for now.

I've seen some references to the idea of using a 6-point harness without seat-floor holes (and without the stupid move of going over the front of the seat), by basically routing them under your *** and out the same exit as the lap belts, apparently used in some formula cars. The concept and mounting angles and effectiveness of that setup are a little unclear to me though.

Is it possible to safely use a 6-point and get the anti-sub benefits without having anti-sub seat holes? If so, do you mount them to the same anchor as the lap belt, after routing them under your *** and out the same area of the seat as the lap belt?

sig11 · 02-15-2012, 02:47 PM

What about the formula style 6 point belts? Have you considered those? I believe they route through with the lap belts but anchor differently.

ryan0 · 02-15-2012, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Backtracking a bit, does anyone have any better info on this aspect:

Is it possible to safely use a 6-point and get the anti-sub benefits without having anti-sub seat holes? If so, do you mount them to the same anchor as the lap belt, after routing them under your *** and out the same area of the seat as the lap belt?

TeamTech Motorsports - Racing Harness - Jet Pilot Harness

takjak2 · 02-15-2012, 11:18 PM

I am amazed that no one has suggested locking the 3-point seatbelt. I don't know why many more people don't use this technique to keep themselves planted.

Sit in the car and slide the seat all the way back, buckle your seatbelt, pull the lap belt tight and then the shoulder strap (running you hand from bottom left to right then top left if you're driving), jerk the seatbelt forward to engage the locking mechanism with a quick short motion, lean into the seatbelt to keep tension and slide the seat forward.

Couldn't find a video. If anyone is confused I can whip one up.

sig11 · 02-16-2012, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by takjak2

I am amazed that no one has suggested locking the 3-point seatbelt. I don't know why many more people don't use this technique to keep themselves planted.

Works fine if you can slide the seat forward.

I for one am too tall.

CGLocks are way easier to use.

ValidusVentus · 02-17-2012, 11:48 PM

I use that method ^ . Its certainly an improvement over normal when braking and some better when turning.

wstar · 02-23-2012, 11:32 AM

Been reflecting on all of this for several days. Bottom line I'm still not putting the 4-point rollbar in my car immediately. However, in the meta-analysis, while the points about the relative safety of a 4-point rollbar in a mixed-used car are valid, everything's a tradeoff in the end.

Most likely if I decided to take this car off the road before doing the 4-point, I'd do so by buying a cheap used truck for DD to haul parts/tools/wheels around in, but still be driving the car itself to track events. Then the next step would be buying a trailer the truck can haul the car around on. Honestly, any cheap used truck I buy is going to be way down the safety scale from the 370 regardless of whether the 370 happened to have a 4-point rollbar in it.

So really, I'm not saving myself any real safety on the street by putting off the 4-point. I'm still going to buy the truck anyways and drive it anyways, knowing that it's less-safe. It's all relative.

However, having read up more on all the issues with seat-back bracing, sliders, FIA seats, blah blah... I'm inclined now to wait to do the 4-point until I first fix up the seating situation. I'll probably sell the recliners off and pick up some fixed FIA-certified buckets and mount them solidly to the floor, and then do the 4-point with the harness bar at whatever the right height ends up being for my shoulders in those seats.

That and use some of the street-friendlier foam on the bar, and I should be good to go for a reasonable risk tradeoff. There's a couple of SFI-compliant high density foam options which have a softer outer part to help out with the helmetless bit. It's not perfect, but nothing is. e.g. BSCI - Roll Bar Padding | Energy Impact Systems

SPOHN · 02-23-2012, 01:33 PM

I can really tell your struggling with this or as it seems. I know how it is to rack you brain with should I do this should I do that. A lot times I give up and say just do it. But when you hang out with the guys at Forged They usually get me to bite. But all in good hands with a little bit business. Lol.

Im really about to buy a trailer my self. Have to see how the funds work out next month. I already have funds set back for tires and brakes. But I really want a lip kit bad. So tired of looking at the stock lines. And I defiantly have to plan a vacation this year. Didnt take one last year. I'll see how it goes. But I did get a big promotion at work this week. See what that can do for me.

wstar · 02-23-2012, 05:21 PM

Yeah it is a struggle to decide what to do. The only really solid perfect answers are:

1) Buy a brand new nice DD that can tow and is safe, and a trailer, and go to town on the 370, or..
2) De-mod the 370 a bit as a DD and build a cheaper race-car and trailer that.

The first option isn't very possible budgetarily, and the second just doesn't appeal to me. I *like* this car on the track, and I want it to be the track car. So, compromises will ensue, in some form or other

.

RoshDawg · 02-28-2012, 12:23 AM

So after reading this very useful thread I believe I am in the same boat as OP. I too will be getting the Schroth Prof II Anti-SubMarining harness (+ helmet and neck brace) to use with my stock seats as I (for now) will only be visiting the track and autoX events a few time this year.

Not to thread jack but can you use the shoulder harness with the stock 'harness' bar? I have heard from several members here (including Travis) that the stock bar is actually pretty strong.

sig11 · 02-28-2012, 08:49 AM

There is no stock harness bar. The stock brace bar is not safe for mounting harnesses.

02-15-2012, 11:18 PM	#38 (permalink)
takjak2 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Sterling, VA Posts: 1,922 Drives: Legit Racecar 370Z Rep Power: 142	I am amazed that no one has suggested locking the 3-point seatbelt. I don't know why many more people don't use this technique to keep themselves planted. Sit in the car and slide the seat all the way back, buckle your seatbelt, pull the lap belt tight and then the shoulder strap (running you hand from bottom left to right then top left if you're driving), jerk the seatbelt forward to engage the locking mechanism with a quick short motion, lean into the seatbelt to keep tension and slide the seat forward. Couldn't find a video. If anyone is confused I can whip one up. __________________ Mods \| Stuff \| Things \| Seat Time \| Nismo facebook.com/TeamSparrowSpeed

02-17-2012, 11:48 PM	#40 (permalink)
ValidusVentus Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Washington State Posts: 400 Drives: #18 Z34 Rep Power: 22	I use that method ^ . Its certainly an improvement over normal when braking and some better when turning. __________________ Mods: Dedicated caged track car, lots of things. \|\|\| Valkyrie Autosport \|\|\|

02-23-2012, 11:32 AM	#41 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Been reflecting on all of this for several days. Bottom line I'm still not putting the 4-point rollbar in my car immediately. However, in the meta-analysis, while the points about the relative safety of a 4-point rollbar in a mixed-used car are valid, everything's a tradeoff in the end. Most likely if I decided to take this car off the road before doing the 4-point, I'd do so by buying a cheap used truck for DD to haul parts/tools/wheels around in, but still be driving the car itself to track events. Then the next step would be buying a trailer the truck can haul the car around on. Honestly, any cheap used truck I buy is going to be way down the safety scale from the 370 regardless of whether the 370 happened to have a 4-point rollbar in it. So really, I'm not saving myself any real safety on the street by putting off the 4-point. I'm still going to buy the truck anyways and drive it anyways, knowing that it's less-safe. It's all relative. However, having read up more on all the issues with seat-back bracing, sliders, FIA seats, blah blah... I'm inclined now to wait to do the 4-point until I first fix up the seating situation. I'll probably sell the recliners off and pick up some fixed FIA-certified buckets and mount them solidly to the floor, and then do the 4-point with the harness bar at whatever the right height ends up being for my shoulders in those seats. That and use some of the street-friendlier foam on the bar, and I should be good to go for a reasonable risk tradeoff. There's a couple of SFI-compliant high density foam options which have a softer outer part to help out with the helmetless bit. It's not perfect, but nothing is. e.g. BSCI - Roll Bar Padding \| Energy Impact Systems __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

02-23-2012, 01:33 PM	#42 (permalink)
SPOHN A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Covington, GA Age: 45 Posts: 14,844 Drives: Waiting on next Z Rep Power: 221	I can really tell your struggling with this or as it seems. I know how it is to rack you brain with should I do this should I do that. A lot times I give up and say just do it. But when you hang out with the guys at Forged They usually get me to bite. But all in good hands with a little bit business. Lol. Im really about to buy a trailer my self. Have to see how the funds work out next month. I already have funds set back for tires and brakes. But I really want a lip kit bad. So tired of looking at the stock lines. And I defiantly have to plan a vacation this year. Didnt take one last year. I'll see how it goes. But I did get a big promotion at work this week. See what that can do for me. __________________

02-23-2012, 05:21 PM	#43 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Yeah it is a struggle to decide what to do. The only really solid perfect answers are: 1) Buy a brand new nice DD that can tow and is safe, and a trailer, and go to town on the 370, or.. 2) De-mod the 370 a bit as a DD and build a cheaper race-car and trailer that. The first option isn't very possible budgetarily, and the second just doesn't appeal to me. I like this car on the track, and I want it to be the track car. So, compromises will ensue, in some form or other . __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

02-15-2012, 02:47 PM	#36 (permalink)
sig11 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Detroit Posts: 1,294 Drives: 09 370Z Red Sport-MT Rep Power: 17	What about the formula style 6 point belts? Have you considered those? I believe they route through with the lap belts but anchor differently.

02-28-2012, 12:23 AM	#44 (permalink)
RoshDawg Track Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: NM / CA Posts: 981 Drives: '13 911 C2S Rep Power: 14	So after reading this very useful thread I believe I am in the same boat as OP. I too will be getting the Schroth Prof II Anti-SubMarining harness (+ helmet and neck brace) to use with my stock seats as I (for now) will only be visiting the track and autoX events a few time this year. Not to thread jack but can you use the shoulder harness with the stock 'harness' bar? I have heard from several members here (including Travis) that the stock bar is actually pretty strong. __________________ \| EVO X MR \| '11 WRX STI \| 370Z SPRT \| 911 (991) C2S \|

02-28-2012, 08:49 AM	#45 (permalink)
sig11 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Detroit Posts: 1,294 Drives: 09 370Z Red Sport-MT Rep Power: 17	There is no stock harness bar. The stock brace bar is not safe for mounting harnesses.

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