Ice mode solution?

Shamu · 02-19-2012, 09:24 AM

This is what Grand Am team did to address rear bias issues. They used 350 Z nismo rear brake caliper and rotor. Well that and an $8k racing abs system.

SPOHN · 02-19-2012, 10:12 AM

Mmmmm, inverted coilover. Me like

mikegreco16 · 03-27-2012, 12:39 AM

Hey Guys and Gals I had a 350z 35th anniversary and was running track pads and RE01R tires. Anyways I had the problem that Car and Driver had with the 370z at their lightning lap. Now maybe we are talking about two different things. But per their investigation they reported that the problem was the 370z did not have proper brake cooling. So is that something separate from Ice Mode? Or is it the same thing. Because when I had my experience it was exactly how C&D described theirs, I pushed the pedal down and got no breaking power whatsoever, therefore I had to go off course. I'm concerned because I want a 370z, but do not want to relive this again. I saw that stillen now makes brake ducts has anyone tried those, if so do they prevent the problem.

ChrisSlicks · 03-27-2012, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikegreco16

Hey Guys and Gals I had a 350z 35th anniversary and was running track pads and RE01R tires. Anyways I had the problem that Car and Driver had with the 370z at their lightning lap. Now maybe we are talking about two different things. But per their investigation they reported that the problem was the 370z did not have proper brake cooling. So is that something separate from Ice Mode? Or is it the same thing. Because when I had my experience it was exactly how C&D described theirs, I pushed the pedal down and got no breaking power whatsoever, therefore I had to go off course. I'm concerned because I want a 370z, but do not want to relive this again. I saw that stillen now makes brake ducts has anyone tried those, if so do they prevent the problem.

Two different problems. The C&D problem was boiled brake fluid accelerated by using the stock pads well beyond their designed operating temperature causing them to wear prematurely (thereby eliminating the insulating pad layer that protects the caliper). Heat is definitely an issue with the 370Z brakes so by adding cooling you are less likely to boil the fluid. Whether or not it will help with ice-mode remains to be seen as the kit was only just released.

wstar · 03-27-2012, 02:18 AM

Well, even if you don't get to the point of boiling off the fluid, just fading out the front pads from overheating them a bit can get you into ice mode easier. The fronts fade first, and then the rears lock up before the fronts do, etc...

ChrisSlicks · 03-27-2012, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Well, even if you don't get to the point of boiling off the fluid, just fading out the front pads from overheating them a bit can get you into ice mode easier. The fronts fade first, and then the rears lock up before the fronts do, etc...

Yes this is true, especially for the less worthy track pads (streetable track pads etc).

bkleeman · 03-27-2012, 08:22 AM

Ice Mode = super hard pedal, car wont stop.
Brake Fade = super soft pedal, car wont stop.

It's my opinion that the Ice Mode problem is a software issue. We're running Hawk DTC 70 (f) and DTC 60 (r) on the World Challenge car with Racing Brake 2-piece rotors and am still able to get Ice Mode easily, even before everything has overheated. We're working on a solution, but I think it's going to involve proportioning the brakes properly and installing an ABS disable switch in the cockpit (probably not something you can easily do or even want to on a street car).

It's all about overall pedal pressure, how quickly you apply it and the initial bite on your pads. When it happens you have to give up the pedal and re-apply ... kinda like you do in a non-ABS car

Problem is that takes some quick thinking as you're hurtling towards certain doom.

Shamu · 04-16-2012, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkleeman

Ice Mode = super hard pedal, car wont stop.
Brake Fade = super soft pedal, car wont stop.

It's my opinion that the Ice Mode problem is a software issue. We're running Hawk DTC 70 (f) and DTC 60 (r) on the World Challenge car with Racing Brake 2-piece rotors and am still able to get Ice Mode easily, even before everything has overheated. We're working on a solution, but I think it's going to involve proportioning the brakes properly and installing an ABS disable switch in the cockpit (probably not something you can easily do or even want to on a street car).

It's all about overall pedal pressure, how quickly you apply it and the initial bite on your pads. When it happens you have to give up the pedal and re-apply ... kinda like you do in a non-ABS car

Problem is that takes some quick thinking as you're hurtling towards certain doom.

Yeah I'd love to have a switch. Switch on for events where I'm not activating and switch off tracks where I know I will have the issue.

I still think issue is primarily rear bias issue which some race car teams have addressed by putting smaller 350 z Brembo rear calipers on the car. Also I'm big fan of staggered setup which helps with bias issue too.

But alas we still haven't identified a cost effective solution for us aggressive brakers who want abs.

Why can't someone hack the abs software to get rid of ice mode for off road use only? How hard is that? I don need race car abs just don't ever want ice mode on the track.

bkleeman · 04-17-2012, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamu

Yeah I'd love to have a switch. Switch on for events where I'm not activating and switch off tracks where I know I will have the issue.

I still think issue is primarily rear bias issue which some race car teams have addressed by putting smaller 350 z Brembo rear calipers on the car. Also I'm big fan of staggered setup which helps with bias issue too.

We wired our switch this weekend at Long Beach. Works like a charm but even with DTC 30s on the rear it's still heavy rear biased so I left the ABS on.

I was pleased to find out that after killing the ABS on track, you can re-enable it without having to shut the car off or reset anything. That means on-track enabling and disabling.

wstar · 03-27-2012, 08:50 AM

^ Yeah, I get that they're distinct. But fading the fronts on relatively low-end pads isn't a binary condition. As they get "a little" faded, where the pedal's a little softer and your braking distance gets a bit longer, the bias shifts to the rear and then ice-mode kicks in sooner than it did on the previous lap, causing the "omg what happened to my brakes" reaction

.

ChrisSlicks · 03-27-2012, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

^ Yeah, I get that they're distinct. But fading the fronts on relatively low-end pads isn't a binary condition. As they get "a little" faded, where the pedal's a little softer and your braking distance gets a bit longer, the bias shifts to the rear and then ice-mode kicks in sooner than it did on the previous lap, causing the "omg what happened to my brakes" reaction

.

And with pad fade the pedal still feels relatively firm thanks to ABS kicking in at the rear. From the driver's seat you just feel ABS and reduced braking performance.

Also stupid Brake Assist activates the ABS prematurely if you jump on the brake pedal swiftly but haven't pushed the pedal hard enough to activate ABS. Unfortunately Brake Assist is counter productive to what we are taught as proper on-track driving skills.

The ABS system in general does not deal well with grippy track pads and/or low grip conditions. Short of going to a full-race spec ABS system I think you are better off disabling the ABS if you can get things proportioned properly.

wstar · 03-27-2012, 01:47 PM

Nissan should offer a track firmware update or something. Charge a few hundred bucks to reflash the relevant bits at the dealership so that when you turn VDC off, it turns off the brake assist, ABLS, and ice mode code, etc...

cossie1600 · 03-27-2012, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Nissan should offer a track firmware update or something. Charge a few hundred bucks to reflash the relevant bits at the dealership so that when you turn VDC off, it turns off the brake assist, ABLS, and ice mode code, etc...

They should also sell us 10.5 inch f & r wheels. Equip real LSD, camber arms, etc

Sorry but not happening...

ChrisSlicks · 03-27-2012, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

They should also sell us 10.5 inch f & r wheels. Equip real LSD, camber arms, etc

Sorry but not happening...

370Z-R ?

wstar · 03-27-2012, 02:44 PM

Already exists

Nismo 370Z US Spec RC (Race Car)

02-19-2012, 09:24 AM	#1 (permalink)
Shamu A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Nor Cal Posts: 1,059 Drives: 370Z Racecar Rep Power: 20	This is what Grand Am team did to address rear bias issues. They used 350 Z nismo rear brake caliper and rotor. Well that and an $8k racing abs system. __________________ Grant

02-19-2012, 10:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
SPOHN A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Covington, GA Age: 46 Posts: 14,844 Drives: Waiting on next Z Rep Power: 222	Mmmmm, inverted coilover. Me like __________________

03-27-2012, 02:18 AM	#5 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	Well, even if you don't get to the point of boiling off the fluid, just fading out the front pads from overheating them a bit can get you into ice mode easier. The fronts fade first, and then the rears lock up before the fronts do, etc... __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

03-27-2012, 08:50 AM	#10 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	^ Yeah, I get that they're distinct. But fading the fronts on relatively low-end pads isn't a binary condition. As they get "a little" faded, where the pedal's a little softer and your braking distance gets a bit longer, the bias shifts to the rear and then ice-mode kicks in sooner than it did on the previous lap, causing the "omg what happened to my brakes" reaction . __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

03-27-2012, 01:47 PM	#12 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	Nissan should offer a track firmware update or something. Charge a few hundred bucks to reflash the relevant bits at the dealership so that when you turn VDC off, it turns off the brake assist, ABLS, and ice mode code, etc... __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

03-27-2012, 12:39 AM	#3 (permalink)
mikegreco16 Base Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: chicago Posts: 9 Drives: Jeep Rep Power: 14	Hey Guys and Gals I had a 350z 35th anniversary and was running track pads and RE01R tires. Anyways I had the problem that Car and Driver had with the 370z at their lightning lap. Now maybe we are talking about two different things. But per their investigation they reported that the problem was the 370z did not have proper brake cooling. So is that something separate from Ice Mode? Or is it the same thing. Because when I had my experience it was exactly how C&D described theirs, I pushed the pedal down and got no breaking power whatsoever, therefore I had to go off course. I'm concerned because I want a 370z, but do not want to relive this again. I saw that stillen now makes brake ducts has anyone tried those, if so do they prevent the problem.

03-27-2012, 02:44 PM	#15 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	Already exists Nismo 370Z US Spec RC (Race Car) __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

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