Plus can you really break a car with not much technology in them?

Exactly. That's the point I always try to make when defending German reliability - they simply have more features built in to them, and are ahead of the curve in technological achievements (Mercedes, especially) by such a margin that statistically they have more crap that's likely to go wrong.

Where as your everyday Toyota doesn't. Likewise, Japanese luxury makes often wait years before implementing those same features the German cars have had, because playing the waiting game has always been a trait of Japan. They wait until a technology is dramatically improved before implementing it - early adopting is not a Japanese quality.

i believe the americans invented the cup holder -- the germans didn't think people should drink and drive :)

Germans take it too far and overengineerd their cars

:icon18::tup::iagree:

Stock def not. i wreck STOCK 335i. modded ones we will have a problem. which was said earlier in the the thread. my dad has the 328 and that cars a joke. The car handles nice but nothing like the Z. i looked into getting the 135 and for the money wasnt worth it to me. looked at S5's and they all seem to be in the same ballpark performance wise. But then you get into the AWD rear seats, a trunk lol. your paying for convenience and the name. I'm having a hard time finding the next car i want bc the Z has spoiled me. its just over all a great car. not the most practical but i love it. wish it came AWD.. That would be AWSOME! :happydance:

Id take a 335 for the price i paid for my Z if I could when I got my z. 5-800 dollars later and thE 335 would be in the 12's. Too many people look at the 335 as a slow car. It's not.

But it's all personal preference ...

id take a 335x for the price of my car in a heartbeat. AWD FI is def the way to go. They arnt a slow car. just slower than us stock lol

Very true ! The x would be nice. I have a 325xi on hand as my girl has one and we live together. The awd system is more RWD oriented as well. A ton of fun in the snow..

my dad used to have an A4 quattro and he said he'd take that car over his beemer any day. His lease is up in june and hes buying a truck :shakes head:

he wants to replace this with an 01 Chevy silverado :shakes head:
http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/t...sbnl/web-1.jpg

That's a nice BMW. She had an A4 before her 325. A 99. We both miss the Audi but love the BMW too... They're both good cars. The Audi had a better awd system as far as traction. I really like audi's and bmw's as well as my Z. Lol. Too many good cars out there!

Oil cooler doesn't matter. It has turbo's, they can be tuned. The ECU version MSD80 is the same from 2007 on up. Obviously, it has been updated since... but same ol same ol as far as tuning goes ;)

Here is a RB (Rob Beck) Turbo 335i. It's the stock turbo's just bored out a bit with very minor modifications. I don't think they run more than a few thousand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcs_n...layer_embedded

Anyone else think that a straight 6 with twin turbo's making 340-350 whp on 15 psi is kind of pitiful? A TT 370Z on 8 psi will make 440 whp. They really aren't in the same class. Unless you do a lot of weight reduction they will get eaten alive on a road courses much like an S5. They're touring cars. They're meant for cruising comfortably at high speeds and have the convenience of trunks, plush leather, and all the luxury amenities while still handling well and being "fast".


And why bore out the motor and keep stock turbo's? That may be cheaper but it's much more of a production than a turbo swap

No no.. I think you misunderstood. The stock turbo was bored out a bit, not the engine :). All in all, this is the first turbo "upgrade" and its making 460whp on pump 93. At 20psi w/ meth and fuel its 500+. It's funny, I can't even describe how small the turbos are. Literally, each one is the size of a deck of cards.

I agree with you though, without serious suspension upgrades, the 335i would not round a track like a 370z ever.

I doubt the 335i is faster than my car....even a modded 335i........I eat them for breakfast and lunch!

My 135i is making 340-350 whp on 13 psi, but you're comparing a motor built for NA to one made for boost. A Z06 makes probably 620 whp on a few psi too...but does that make the Z look bad?

Either way, we'll see how my bimmer compares at the track to my 370z in a couple of weeks. Just from driving around on curvy roads though...I have to say that the bimmer is going to kill it. And all from a $500 tune...

You're still comparing a twin turbo 6 to an NA 6. Of course you'll make more power by upping the boost. But 340 whp on 13 psi Vs 320 whp on 0 psi (full bolt on Z) isn't saying much. BPU++ supras will make 450 whp on pump gas with similar boost and you dont need to upgrade fuel pumps, etc. I'm just saying, the 135 and 335 are nice cars and make a ton of power with a simple ecu flash but it's not exactly a marvel of engineering in terms of reliability with said upgrades. But if you upgrade the fuel pump, exhaust, and intercooler than you'll have a more reliable way of making close to 400 whp on the stock turbos.

I understand, but why are you comparing a full bolt on Z to just an ECU tune 35 motor? Full bolt ons on the Z cost around $3-4k...Stock for stock they are similar, but the Bimmer feels a hell of a lot faster in everyday driving because it is making closer to 300 lb ft of torque and not 240. With a full bolt on Z + tune vs a full bolt on 135i + tune, you are going to be looking at 325 hp and 270 tq (at wheels) versus 390 hp and 410 tq (at wheels). From owning and driving both, the BMW is a lot more fun to drive on the street. I am very excited to drive it on the track and see how it compares. I know it will not handle as well stock for stock, but I plan on getting coilovers for the BMW.

I LOVED my 370 a lot, and it was difficult deciding to sell it. It was a fast car, and handled very well. The main problem in my opinion with the car is that it is NA. It would take about $10k to make my 370z as fast as my 135 is now, $500 later...

But seriously, I cannot figure out why Nissan won't put a motor like the BMW's in a Z!! It would be an amazing car, and considering how much the 135 owners are loving the tuning scene...I cannot even imagine how much it would thrive in the Nissan culture. A car like the 370 that looks as good as it handles deserves a better engine!!

Also who cares what the psi is? The Z maxes out pretty quick on stock internals at relatively low pressures. It's like arguing which one of our girls' boobs are better when my girl started with an A cup and yours started with a B, but they both have boob jobs that put them at a D cup. Boobs are boobs ;)

i know for a fact 370z > 335i...stock for stock...335 of a jb4 on map1 or 2 i forgot will win by half a car.

That's true stock for stock, but my 135i on map 2 will destroy a stock 370z...

:drama:

Paper racing is so cool!

All these points are valid but we seem to be hyper-focused on straight line acceleration and butt dyno's. The Z is a pure sports car. It's light, short wheel-based, high revving, rwd platform is for sports car purists. It's kind of different from the 335 in many ways. For example, the new 5.0 mustang with the performance package has been shown to be nearly as fast as an e92 m3 around a track, but who here would want to own the mustang over the m3 if money were not an option? Don't get me wrong I LOVE a solid, powerful, torquey German car. They're comfortable, handle well, Easy on the eyes, etc. But if all you're after is daily driving fun and acceleration, you're better off with an American V8. Idk about the 135, but the 335 would need substantial weight reduction to keep up with the Z around a tight road course. Going around sweeping curves or S turns on public roads is not the same as racing. Many more factors come into play. For example, if you're "racing" a car on a mountain road in some twisty turns , you'll be limited by the race line you can take because the path of the car is only one lane. So both cars will seemingly go through the turn at the same speed, and the one with more torque will appear faster. Theres a huge difference on a track.

If I had the money I'd have an S5 dd and make my Z into a full on race car. But I definitely don't. Or just buy a GTR FTW!

I've only said that the 135 is faster than the Z in a straight line, and handles well, so I'm excited to see how it compares on the track.

I'm not just after DD fun, but that's important since I'm on the track like 5 or so times a year and driving on the streets about 330 days of the year...

I actually looked at a mustang, and I enjoyed driving it, but I hated the car. Like, when you're in there its fine...but when you're walking up to your car you're just like....ughhh

LOL exactly. I had the same problem with my WRX. And the Evo's create that same disgust in me as well. The new 5.0 is a beast but they could have done so much more with the looks. Nicer rims (much like Nissan did with Rays, I'm sure Ford could have found a nice, deep dish American Racing wheel to offer on the sport packages) maybe a little lower ride height, and 285's in the rear...The interior is also nasty. That car NEEDS sport/racing seats with decent bolsters. And the retro gauge cluster has gotta go.

I think the Mustang 5.0 DUB edition took care of most of those problems :roflpuke2:

2011 DUB Edition Ford Mustang Unveiled

From what I've read and seen and heard, the 370z surpasses the 135i in every performance category... stock. After a few bolt-ons and tune just forget about it, the 135i will leave the 370z in the dust every time...

Not in handling it won't, you still can't overcome a substantial weight penalty. Besides, if you start mentioning bolt ons, the cost savings of buying the Z versus a 135/335i is not exactly small. A couple grand invested in the Z and it would keep up with a 135/335i in a straight line (even or at least close) and would outhandle the BMWs in my opinion.

That said, I have a huge amount of respect for the n54 and how well the BMW packaged comfort and performance.

They are pretty much identical stock for stock. 0-60 in 5 seconds, 0-100 in about 12, quarter in low 13's. After just a tune, a 135i will leave a full bolt on and tune 370z in the dust...

It won't...at all. It wouldn't even be close. Plus, I bought my 135 used with same miles/year as my Z was for thousands less than I sold the Z for. The Z handles much better stock, and I'm interested to see how close lap times will be with my largely stock 135i suspension wise. I'm planning on doing a few hot laps with the stock tune first to see how it compares as the 0-100 & quarter times are identical on the stock 135 and 370. I'm probably going to end up putting sway bars and coilovers on it, but the first few sessions will be with the stock suspension.

YouTube - Nissan 370Z vs. BMW 135i, Mazda RX-8 R3, and Pontiac Solstice GXP - Car and Driver

370Z beats the 135i stock vs stock and is $4000 cheaper. The straight line accel is identical and the 135i has more low end torque (duh) but the 370Z is the clear winner in this comparison. Also, I've been doing some reading and if you just do an ECU tune and turn up the boost on the 135i it wont perform nearly as well or as reliably as if you added supporting mods like FMIC, exhaust, fuel pump, etc, which will bring the modding cost over $2k. So, yes, a bolt on 135i with tune will make close to 400 whp, but that's total about $6 grand more than a stock Z. The point? If you make the cars equal in price, that is invest $6 grand into a stock Z just for power (SC or TT), the Z will still make more power and have the superior handling if left stock in that dept.

They're both great cars for sure, but in independent testing, the Z wins and comes in a lot ($4000 to me is a lot of money) cheaper than the 135i.

HOWEVER, if all you want is performance at a price, you'd be better off with a 5.0 Mustang GT. So performance on a track and in a straight line is surely not the only criterion for selecting the car for you.

No offense but you're smoking some good stuff if you think you can get any sort of forced induction on a 370z for $6k.... You MIGHT get an OKAY supercharger/supporting mods for double what you suggested.. but by the time you have a bolt-on/tuned 135i and a based twin turbo 370z you're comparing a barely modified 135i to a drastically modified 370z. Yes, an NA to FI conversion is a huge change. It's not really fair...

For the record, I meant the 135i would leave the 370z in the dust... acceleration wise. The 370z outshines the 135i in the curves...

And yeah, a '11 Mustang GT would be far better bang for the buck than either of these two cars.. or *gasp* a c5z06.

Well in short, no. I have one...and I DD on the tune that makes almost 400rwhp. It is perfectly reliable and I have literally not done a thing to it other than a tune. I get over 35 mpg on the Highway. My modding cost is $500...and I guarantee you it will destroy a 370z with $2000 in mods on a drag strip, driver comfort, or on a road course. Why can't you just admit that that's pretty awesome?

Finally somebody with some sense!! The 370z is a great car, and I'd own one again. It just isn't very tunable! It would take $10k to do what $500 got me in the BMW. That's a huge positive in my book. And in all honesty, the Z doesn't handle that much better. With just some sway bars and/or a $1200 coilover kit it will have zero trouble keeping up with a 370 in the turns, and will blow by it on the straights. The Mustang is a lot of fun to drive...but it is not a fun car to tell people you have. I do like them, but unfortunately the last 20 years of Mustang history has really tainted the namesake.

This is contrary to what I've heard. The 335 guys talk about heat soak and the need for an aftermarket fuel pump. If you're doubling the boost and using the same intake, exhaust, and intercooler I can't see how that's optimal. Is it impressive to make 400 whp on a $500 tune only? Hell yes. But I've had turbo cars before and have worked on many Mk IV Supras and even they didn't make that power without intake, intercooler, exhaust, AND a boost increase. BPU+++ was good for mid 400's on pump gas. If you wanted 500 and above you needed to swap for a single. And in terms of a road course, I doubt it. All that power and stock tires? Plus the Z out handles it stock...


And im not trying to be fresh, but I've never seen one driven by a man.

Push370zz I understand u love your car. I was in-between the nismo and 135 myself. It's a nice car but not a true sports car IMO. Didn't feel like one when I drove it. 400rwhp on a tune I call bs. Now I know a tune frees up around 60who on a stock motor so I say your at like 340-350rwhp. And on a straight line for the 6k difference in price just ask jnaut what he spent on his car running 12.2xx on the 1/4 on street tires. Maybe around 4-5k. And on turns the 135 feels good and I think it's a drivers race but they come with skinny little 255s in the real if I recall. My buddy is making 430ish whp with only 3k into the 135 which is awesome so just enjoy the car both cars are almost equal when considering price difference and money invested (performance wise). The 135 is very confy dd tho.

I don't know a single person with an aggressive tune on their 335i or 135i that hasn't blown a turbo or had to get the fuel pump replaced as a result. Only the guys who opt for the milder ECU tunes (30-40WHP) are able to maintain stock-like reliability. The guys who go all out for the 80-90WHP JB3 and etc. don't.

There is pretty much no way this won't beat my Z on a road course. I had R-Comps and sway bars, but I guess we'll see.

It's not a true sports car, that's not why I bought it. The lowest boost setting brings it to 360 rwhp, and I can add another 3 psi or so on top of that. It's not a drivers race against anybody that isn't Jnaut...I have no trouble turning out sub 5 second 0-60 times starting in 2nd gear, and 0-100 is right around 10 or less. The Z was lucky to do that in high 11's.

Bottom line is you guys are frustrating me...I am still a loyal Z enthusiast, but I'm just pointing out how disappointing it is that Nissan put such an un-tunable motor into the 370. The car would be awesome if you could pump out 400 rwhp for under a grand. Unfortunately, you can't, and as a result...the 135i has been a much more "fun" alternative to my Z.

I don't think we're intending to frustrate you bro. Everyones entitled to their opinion. In terms of "un-tunable" I think it really depends on personal preference and the "want" for power. It's hard to compare an OEM NA car with one that is F.I. Any F.I. car will make more power per mod. Once the VVEL is tuned I think the Z will be able to make even more power, both NA and with those who choose to go the F.I. route. But other than Porsche (and BMW wit the E46 M3) I don't see many other cars with so much power out of the box from a 6-cyl engine. Also, the Z has been shown to make 40 whp gains with intake, exhaust, and "tune" (just to smooth out AFR). I have a very long daily commute to work, and even on the freeways I dont have much chance to open the car up. I don't have much use for anything faster than this, even though I will be doing some bolt-on mods.

It all comes down to personal preference. I don't think anyone's "hating" on the 135i. Different strokes for different folks.

Untunable motor?! Are you serious! First off VVEL hasnt even been cracked, there are so many parameters that havent even been touched. Right now its just AF ratio, timming and a few other little adjustments...and even for what it is, it still makes decent power on a tune. Second, you need to realize that your "just a tune" is for your TURBOS! You have what 300hp/300tq TWIN TURBO charged straight 6 right? Well of course a tune is gonna do allot for for you, you have (2) huge power adders right there. That straight 6 motor with out the AID of turbos wouldnt tune for than 10-15rwhp. NA gain VS FI gain is a retarded comparison. In fact i dont know any motor in the history of man (maybe you can enlighten) that is NA with "just a tune" that picks up over 150rwhp. Your tuning for the TURBOS not the motor...that motor is nothing more power than a Scion TC without the turbos. Third, about the handling, you say that with just sways and this and that you can keep up with a 370Z..? Am sure, maybe, but what 370Z is gonna stay stock anyway?! Stock for stock, mod for mod the 135I will not outhandle the Z.../

Some of these numbers seem amiss. The "lowest" boost setting makes 360 whp? It's rated at 300 bhp, so I'm thinking 260 whp stock? So you're saying that just by turning up the boost you're gaining 100 whp? I doubt this, but if so, what is the stock boost? And what boost is the "high" setting? If you're gaining 100 whp that has to be a difference of almost 50% boost or more, which in every other stock turbo car I've seen, would need bigger injectors, fuel pump, oil cooler, and FMIC to operate without heat soak, knock (there must be a timing advance in this tune - there's no way it's just from increased boost), etc